Phantom...It Just keeps getting worse... (Don't read if you're a fan)- Page 3

[frontrowcentre2]

Posted: 6/23/05 at 1:08am

I agree with all of the complaints against PHANTOM and I'll add one of my own: The lyrics are embarrassingly bad. Some of the songs have lovely melodies (All I Ask of YOU is one I liked) but the words are so empty and banal that I lose interest in the song long before it reaches a climax. And the whole score is saddled with lyrics that just do not work. I always suspected that if Hal Prince had produced this show as well as directed he would have demanded a far better text.

I first reviewed PHANTOM on Saturday January 30 - 4 days after it opened - awarding it * * 1/2 out of 5. The night before I had seen INTO THE WOODS and while it too has a few problems - notably a 2nd Act where a good deal of time is wasted arguing over what to do before a plan is finally put in place and acted upon - but it's score and overall construction is brilliant and original. I gave it * * * * out of 5. Return visits to both shows on Broadway in the summer of 2002 found the ratings exactly the same.

So..... Why did audiences flock to PHANTOM for 16 years while INTO THE WOODS lasted barely 2? In a word ... marketing! Even before it opened POTO was a major NYC tourist attraction and it still is. Most of the people that go are not theatre fans. They are theme-park thrill seekers.

[Justice]

Posted: 6/23/05 at 12:21pm

"Who's the idiot here?
Those who enjoy Phantom for the escapist spectacle that it is, or you, who keeps forking out dollars to go see a show they know they already hate...."

Actually, the idiot here would be you for not having read the part in my original post where I said I went for Free. I would NEVER fork out money for a Webber show. That man has enough money, he doesn't need ANY of mine.

And for those talking about POTO being a success with ticket sales and the public, it is true about the marketing. Plus, it's simplicity is what draws them in. Cats ran for years, and in no way can anyone say that it was the best show on Broadway. And its runing had nothing to do with sales. Webber was paying money from his own pocket at one point, to keep it open because the sales were low. He just wanted it to surpass "A Chorus Line", and once it did, he stopped putting the money in and made plans to close it.
Webber is an egostistical slime who does not deserve the credit he gets. Why do you think Tim Rice won't work with him anyomore?

[dietcherryemma]

Posted: 6/23/05 at 12:54pm

Oh, poo. It's a lovely show that can appeal to non-theatre people- which is a big deal. It's why a random person would see Lion King or POTO before Into the Woods or DRS - and yeah, marketing has something to do with it. You can't deny that the original cast of POTO was amazing - come on, people. But now, after so many years, it has gotten stale. It's like any other show that has been running quite awhile- there are no traces of an original cast left, and the actors are just working. I think it's more their fault than ALW's or anyone else.

[Sant]

Posted: 6/23/05 at 3:48pm

"Why do you think Tim Rice won't work with him anyomore?"

Because TR didn't want to make a musical about cats and ALW did.

Because ALW didn't approve TR's relationship with Elaine Paige - the original star of EVITA in London. (This came back to 'haunt' ALW later on when he got involved with Sarah Brightman)

They have worked together after it: "You Must Love Me" for EVITA movie was written by ALW and lyrics were by TR.

TR was asked to be involved in the process of JCS revival, but he pulled out because he said "he didn't like the poster"!

TR didn't want to participate on the revival of JATATDC in the 90s but changed his mind when the show proved to be success and said he could write a lyric for a new song for the video version of the show (which never happened - the song that is...)

So there...

Updated On: 6/23/05 at 03:48 PM

[Justice]

Posted: 6/23/05 at 3:52pm

Sant, you forgot to mention that Tim Rice was tired of his name being under Webber's on the Marquise!
It was always:
MUSIC BY ANDREW LLOYD WEBBER
and
lyrics by tim rice

The truth is Rice did more work writing Lyrics than Webber does writing the music,
and
"Because TR didn't want to make a musical about cats and ALW did"
Aren't the lyrics to Cats wriiten by T.S. Elliot as they had INTENDED to be? How could Rice have been involved in this if the lyrics were pre-written???

[Sant]

Posted: 6/23/05 at 4:05pm

Justice, not all of them are 'T.S.Eliot Originals'. MEMORY is not written by Eliot. Actually, Rice was asked to write a lyric for it and he did. As did Trevor Nunn. They tried both lyrics during the previews and even a combination of the two but eventually went with Nunn's lyrics.

And it's not like ALW didn't have anything to do with the fact that he and TR 'drifted' apart: they were planning a song cycle for Elaine Paige, but suddenly it was a song cycle for Marti Webb and the lyrics were by Don Black.

Just saying that it's not entirely ALW's fault they don't work together much anymore.

[DreamFlyer22]

Posted: 6/23/05 at 4:59pm

Wow... this is a gripe people have had since the 80s... way to carry a grudge. When Phantom shoots over the record set by Cats I think we should also award 'Longest Running Tempertanrum about a show becoming successful'.

Oh wait. That applies to most of Lloyd-Webber's material.

((And, quickly, in defending ALW, I wouldn't use "Woman in White" as evidence... it's not that great, in my opinion. Hope it gets some revisions before showing up in New York...))

[Phantom05]

Posted: 6/23/05 at 10:12pm

dietcherryemma - Actually you will find many people still working with Phantom that were either in the original cast, crew, or even pit musicians. I'm sorry to also have to say, but if I were going to see my first show, I would prefer to see POTO over Into the Woods, or DRS. They aren't the most appealing shows ever written, and while I LOVE Stephen Sondheim, the popularity of his shows to the general public show in their ticket sales. Really, I hope some of you aren't so closed minded as to think that this board makes up most of the theatre community. When you get right down to it, the public is going to make up their own mind, and obviously the don't think that POTO is stale in the slightest! As for you saying that it is just a JOB to the cast then shame on you, and what do you know? I am friends with a lot of people working with the current cast and crew, and they all LOVE their jobs! Just because they are sticking with one show doesn't mean they consider it "JUST A JOB." They love their work, and the theatre-going pulic loves the work that they do!

See Ya!

Phantom05

[frontrowcentre2]

Posted: 6/23/05 at 11:28pm

"I would prefer to see POTO over Into the Woods, or DRS. They aren't the most appealing shows ever written, and while I LOVE Stephen Sondheim, the popularity of his shows to the general public show in their ticket sales."

I think you lost the train of thought here but I see you are heading.

The problem is that so many peiople buy PHANTOM tickets as a brand name . It has become a tourist attraction because of the cache of going home and telling friends you saw PHANTOM OF THE OPERA on Broadway! If a person said they saw DRS, their friends probably haven't heard of it, so it carries less status.

I believe that many tourists see the one show based on its fame, and see nothing else. (With ticket prices who can blame them???) But with nothing to compare it with. But they go home and tell their friends about the wonderful scenery and special effects. So their friends come to NYC and they want to see THAT show because Sarah and Harry saw it and loved it. Meanwhile these people are missing out on other shows, many of which are better written and better performed... just not as well known in middle America.

And yes, I bashed PHANTOM in my original review (and a follow up in 2002) for all the weaknesses in writing. And there is no need for all these weaknesses. Given its source it COULD have been a really fantastic musical. In fact there is a much better musical adaptation by Maury Yesteon written before the Lloyd Webber version came along but unfortunately the ALW version opened first in London then fast tracked to Broadway.

As for your comment:
"Really, I hope some of you aren't so closed minded as to think that this board makes up most of the theatre
community."

Many of the longtime members here are true Broadway fans (Some have the advantage of living in or near NYC) and a lot of us have seen many of the shows that have come (and gone) since POTO arrived in 1988. I haven't seen everything but I have seen a lot of shows much better written and (for me) far more enjoyable than PHANTOM.

[Phantom05]

Posted: 6/23/05 at 11:38pm

frontrowcentre2 -

......Agreed, and thank you for finishing my faultering train of thought, LOL! I agree, while it's one of my favorite shows, it isn't the best material I have ever heard nor read.

......I have been a member of this board pretty much the entire time, and was even a member when a lot of you were using the forum on www.broadway.com.

......Unlike many, I have had the advantage of seeing a great number of shows on Broadway over the years, and there are certainly several who deserved more credit than they were awarded.

.....I don't entirely think that this thread has to do with Phantom's current quality or state, but more the fact that there are so many other shows that have opened over the years that deserve the same recognition, and I completely agree with that!

Later!

Phantom05

[WindyCityActor]

Posted: 6/23/05 at 11:47pm

I can only say that when I saw POTO the Fall of 2002, it was as exciting as cold oatmeal...a few interesting stage effects which totally upstaged the performers.

[ChristineDaae]

Posted: 6/25/05 at 5:10pm

Phantom is still going strong and it's doing well. I don't know who you saw as Christine but if it was Julie Hanson or Sandra Joseph, they are both really good. Hugh Panaro is an amazing actor. He adds so much to the "Phantom". Unfortunatly I didn't see the original cast and I'm sure they were amazing (I just love to listen to Michael Crawfords "Phantom" on the cast recording) but I love POTO today and I don't think it's "stale" at all. I've seen a bunch of B'Way shows and this one is still my favorite.

Updated On: 6/25/05 at 05:10 PM

[Sally]

Posted: 6/25/05 at 7:29pm

I can't speak to the freshness or lack thereof of Phantom on Broadway---haven't seen it on Broadway for years, but I saw the tour a few months ago, and the cast, led by Gary Mauer were energetic and talented. Phantom lives

[Phantomerik15]

Posted: 6/26/05 at 9:38pm

*cries* i personally love Phantom and im completely obsessed. i agree about the movie being dissapointing and "bad" but the show?
Hugh Panaro was great and im very disappointed at seeing him go soon. Christine...i agree, the women on stage right now as her is not good. Raoul is the most idiotic person in the history of bway musicals and has the most stupid lines...but the shows mind blowing in my opinion.

[felineofavenueb]

Posted: 6/26/05 at 10:55pm

I feel like some people missed the "Don't read if you're a fan" caveat.

[Necromancer07707]

Posted: 6/27/05 at 12:40pm

While I agree with you, Justice...


"I am probably one of the many few people who can't stand this show"

What sounds wrong about that statement? I'll give you a hint: "the contrast was startling"

[Urban]

Posted: 6/28/05 at 12:57am

Ticket sales mean nothing, they just mean stupid tourist proles brought into the slick PR (which I admit is something ALW can do well). Ticket sales have zero relation to quality of the said musical.

Saying that. 'Phantom of the Opera' can be done well. It is a bitch to pull off well, but sadly everybody since Anthony Warlow & Michael Crawford just cannot do it.

(btw, I am not saying I dislike all of ALW stuff - I actually did enjoy alot of his 70s stuff like JCS and Evita - of course more TR then ALW - just pretty much everything since then is god awful).
Updated On: 6/28/05 at 12:57 AM

[NYCisHome]

Posted: 6/28/05 at 1:02am

Here's my two sence. I'm going try not to bash anyone. But if I ofend anyone, I aplogise before I start writing this.

Okay, for all of you who said the charachter of Raul basically stinks, it's because he does in the book too. I don't think this is ALW's fault or anything else's working on the show. Raul is just a stupid character and there is ntohing anyone can do about that.

Personally, I've heard from my friends that they musical is awsome on broadway. I have no idea, I've yet to see it, however I AM seeing it in London next winter or spring, whenever I get a chance to go.

Oh, and I think ALW is a musical genius! He's not my favorite composer in the world (I'm a RENThead, so i geuss we'd Jonathon Larson in that spot) however, I do LOVE the music to POTO and WOman in White (which I did see) Evita and JCSS. I really don't think you should be comparing Sondheim and Andrew, they're too different people with very different musical writing styles. Not ALL of Sondheim's stuff is good, and not ALL of ALW stuff is good.

Okay my last thing, I really don't think all these musical movies they're making is a good thing. Now, while I'm so excited that RENT is becoming a movie, I'm worried that like Phantom, it'll suck or get "posers" that aren't reall fans. I think a big reason people go see Phatom is it's commercialized and everything and because it's just so popular. It's big like Wicked is, but that doesn't make it good. However, I personally belive that it is a great show, or at least what I've heard from it is. WHen I actally see it, I'll let you know.

[kelzama]

Posted: 6/28/05 at 10:23am

One word, nycishome: spellcheck. times 15.

[me3]

Posted: 6/28/05 at 10:47am

i think its a great show

[Justice]

Posted: 6/28/05 at 11:22am

That's nice.

[paradox_error]

Posted: 6/28/05 at 12:07pm

Amazingly, I'm one of the few people that liked the film more than the stage show. I think that the stage show is not one of the worst written (CATS, anyone?) but it takes itself way too seriously. And because it does this, it's boring as hell.

The film, however, I saw as a lot more fluffy. It didn't take itself so seriously, thus making it more watchable.

And I saw Anthony Warlow as the Phantom (and I'm a huge fan of him) so it might surprise people I preferred the film...

And by the way NYCishome, it's your two CENTS. You know, the currency kind...

[sanda]

Posted: 6/28/05 at 1:01pm

I think film is better in some parts too. Of course the Phantom cannot sing. but the scene is much better like marsquerade and point of no return. The stage version of these two scenes are simply bland, boring and bad. Christine and Raoul in the movie are very good too.
Updated On: 6/28/05 at 01:01 PM

[dietcherryemma]

Posted: 6/28/05 at 1:29pm

Phantom05-

I was just speculating on why some people have seen what they have in POTO recently. These things do tend to happen (no joke).Honestly, I agree with you and don't see many of the problems people have with it, but I also haven't seen it on Broadway in several years.

[Adam Chris]

Posted: 6/28/05 at 6:13pm

Speaking of Tim Rice....I understand that he is CURRENTLY working with Webber and they are presenting a show they worked on years ago before Joseph/Dreamcoat called The Likes Of Us. The is being presented at Webber's Sydmonton Festivel.

Also...Sondheim, although he is "brilliant" and a "genius", has written some pretty boring shows as well. And by that I mean Passion and Sunday/George. I remember when I saw the original PBS playing of Passion ... I keep thinking...."OMG. When will the paint dry?"

And in all fairness to PHANTOM... I think the worst interpretation I've seen of Phantom was by Brad Little. I saw him in the touring production in San Diego and was absolutely disapointed in his acting. I really wanted my money back.
Updated On: 6/28/05 at 06:13 PM