Big Fish: sound design

[ARTc3]

Posted: 11/14/13 at 10:31am

Last night, my partner and I saw Big Fish. I enjoyed the show, with many reservations, some similar to those mentioned here, others not. (I did not think the show "big" with excessive production values. I did think that the projections were over used to the point of distraction.)

Our seats were excellent ones: mezzanine, first row, dead center.

We could barely hear the performers (the orchestra was fine). Honest. The sound was atrocious. The dialogue was barely audible. The musical numbers, a little better, but still sounded like we were in another room. (Please note that I and my partner have excellent hearing and he too felt the sound, too low and flat. At intermission, the woman on the other side of me, asked me, if I thought there was something wrong with the sound.)

Thinking that this must be a technical glitch for this performance (it sounded as if the above the stage center speaker wasn't working), I tried to approach the sound engineer at intermission to ask if something can be done. She was on break and not at the sound board, so I spoke with the house manager who promised to relay my message.

The second act was no better.

After the show, I did find the sound engineer and complained. She listened and asked a few questions, but basically seemed unfazed by my comments. I asked her if this was an ongoing issue or specific to this performance. She didn't seem to have an answer.

There is little worse than sitting in the middle of a row - knowing that getting up to complain, you'd be interrupting many people - and being forced to watch a show that you can barely hear. Issues do arise, that is inevitable, but at hundreds of dollars for 2 seats...

Just needed to get this off my chest.

Updated On: 11/14/13 at 10:31 AM

[Patash]

Posted: 11/14/13 at 1:53pm

"The musical numbers, a little better, but still sounded like we were in another room."

Count yourself lucky. The musical numbers were much better from another room than if you were in the same room!

[bwayphreak234]

Posted: 11/14/13 at 1:59pm

Sounds like the sound for Matilda. Truly one of the worst sound designs I have heard. I could barely hear the orchestra, and a lot of the words were incomprehensible.

[Dollypop]

Posted: 11/14/13 at 4:43pm

I'm glad someone else brought this up.

I found the ensemble singing to be virtually inaudible. Seriously I couldn't hear a single lyric when they were performing as a group. Sadly, quite a bit of background is given in the lyric of one production number early in the first act and it left me pondering what the hell the story was about. It also confused me as to what the tone of the show was going to be.

[Sutton Ross]

Posted: 11/14/13 at 4:51pm

I was in front row of the orchestra when I saw it, and the sound was perfect and I heard everyone clearly. Although some people did speak softly and in low tones, I was actually wondering how people in the back of the theater would be able to hear it. How was the attendance?

[gleek4114]

Posted: 11/14/13 at 5:57pm

I sat in the second to last row of the mezz and could hear everything fine. Must really have to do with you specific seating in the theater.

[FireFingers]

Posted: 11/14/13 at 9:11pm

Although you seats might have given a perfect view of the stage ARTc3, that spot is actually one of the hardest to get good sound in the entire theatre, any theatre. You are far from anywhere where speakers can be rigged (walls and ceiling) without blocking off the stage from other seats. Sadly there is often not enough budget nor time to get great sound everywhere and small pockets of bad sound crop up. And once the sound designer leaves (after opening night) the sound team aren't allowed to change anything, as it isn't theirs to change. I mean, if everyone complains then the sound designer is brought back, or a new designer is brought in and attempts are made to fix it, but that's very costly. I've always wanted to design a show where the entire audience wears headphones. Perfect sound for everyone.

It is amazing how the worse the view of the stage is, the better the sound often becomes.

[AEA AGMA SM]

Posted: 11/14/13 at 9:41pm

"I've always wanted to design a show where the entire audience wears headphones. Perfect sound for everyone."

Of course that would have its own limitations. Think of a show like Phantom, for instance, where the use of multiple speakers throughout the house helps create the aural effect of the Phantom being able to throw his voice all over the theatre.

[ARTc3]

Posted: 11/14/13 at 10:11pm

The house was pretty full. Downstairs seemed packed. Upstairs had a few pockets of empty seats.

As for sitting in the first row orchestra and hearing... Weird, but as I was complaining to the sound engineer, someone feeling sorry for her having to listen to my "rant", said, "I was sitting in the first row and heard everything." To this I replied, "really, you were upstairs in the first row?" and of course, he replied, "no, downstairs"...

I can actually understand why the center mezzanine is hard to cover as its the furtherest from the banks of speakers on the side walls. However, I have sat upstairs in the Neil Simon before and didn't have this problem. Mostly, nobody should have to sit through any show where they've paid hundreds of dollars for a pair of tickets and not be able to hear.

As for designing sound... How about one of the next renovations of a Broadway theater install a pair of speaks in the back of each seat. Cirque in Las Vegas has done this in several of their theaters and the sound is amazing. The audience wouldn't have to wear headphones which can be rather alienating by themselves AND each audience member would have brilliant sound. Expensive, but interested, eh?

Updated On: 11/14/13 at 10:11 PM

[kmccoy2]

Posted: 11/15/13 at 12:13am

"After the show, I did find the sound engineer and complained. She listened and asked a few questions, but basically seemed unfazed by my comments. I asked her if this was an ongoing issue or specific to this performance. She didn't seem to have an answer."

I don't know the specifics of this case, but I just wanted to respond to this bit. There are so many factors going into each individual audience member's appreciation of a show's sound that it's unsurprising that every show will occasionally get sound complaints. The complaints are often directed at the mixer, the person behind the sound board, who is generally the most visible target. They, however, report to a number of people, and are supposed to be implementing the design as set by the designer (there may also be other factors, like producers or directors or stage managers giving notes, sometimes conflicting notes). The person doing the mixing may actually disagree with the design of the sound. Or they might completely agree with it, and know exactly how it sounds in your seat, and just disagree with your disliking of it. Or there might be a technical problem that they're not aware of. Or some other option. But in all of these cases, the safest way to respond is basically "unfazed". Collect information about location, if the problem was with dialogue or music, if the problem was instruments or vocals, if the problem lasted the whole show or just portions, etc, and then maybe politely apologize and thank the patron for their input. "Is this an ongoing issue or specific to this performance" doesn't HAVE an answer that the mixer can give -- if she says "yes, it's an ongoing issue", then the natural followup is "why haven't you fixed it?" And if she says "no, this is just a problem with this performance", then the followup is "can I have my money back, then?"

I'm sure that your complaint was taken back to the appropriate people, but I just wanted to explain why you might get that sort of response.

[oasisjeff]

Posted: 11/15/13 at 12:37am

Why not get an assisted listening device during the intermission than trying to find the sound person?

[ARTc3]

Posted: 11/15/13 at 10:15am

kmccoy2 thank you for your excellent post. I actually agree with all of what you wrote. I should also state that I am very appreciative of the sound when its good / excellent and will always try and find the sound engineer (mixer) to express my appreciation. I do understand the situation that the mixer is in.

When I wrote that the sound was "atrocious" I wasn't exaggerating. The sound Wednesday night from the center of the front mezzanine was unacceptable.

oasisjeff an interesting idea that I didn't even consider. My hearing is excellent, as is my partner's and I suspect - but don't know - the young woman sitting next to me. I have never worn an assisted hearing device, but had I know that I wasn't going to be able to hear, it becomes an interesting option. I think the reason this didn't occur to me was the belief that this was a simple fix (a speaker that just wasn't turned on) and that with my comments the situation would be rectified.

Honestly, the sound was so bad, it seemed more a mistake of that evening's performance than faulty design.

Updated On: 11/15/13 at 10:15 AM

[ARTc3]

Posted: 11/15/13 at 10:19am

I should add... if this wasn't a technical glitch, then shame on the sound designer.

[neonlightsxo]

Posted: 11/15/13 at 10:25am

Bad sound design is kind of an epidemic on Broadway lately. As someone who has done a little bit of sound design myself, I'm more sensitive to it. I'm sure it has something to do with the old theaters being hard to work with, I'll give them that, but I've seen so many productions in which I found the sound design to be bad nominated for a Best Sound Design Tony Award. It just goes to show the nominators have no idea what they're talking about.

I think the production teams should really sit all over the theater before they decide the sound design is done, especially in a musical.

[morosco]

Posted: 11/15/13 at 10:38am

The whole process of sound design is rather fascinating. Even though some of the tech talk went over my head I found this book to be really interesting.
Mixing a Musical: Broadway Theatrical Sound Techniques

[ARTc3]

Posted: 11/15/13 at 10:49am

morosco... cool. I just ordered a copy. I'm not planning on becoming a sound designer, but I am fascinated by the technologies that make live performance magical. Sound is such an important part.

[FireFingers]

Posted: 11/15/13 at 5:51pm

I have that book, it's great. It's the only book on the modern theatre sound industry that I have come across and is really insightful.

You say sound is an important part but you'd be amazed how it is often the last thought of creative area. Often the sound designer is employed long after the director, set designer, costume designer, choregrapher, lighting designer, video designer etc have been employed and been working on the project for many months.

[broadwayguy2]

Posted: 11/15/13 at 6:17pm

Shannon Slaton's book is, frankly, an incredible addition to a library on a topic that doesn't receive nearly the writing it should. In fact, the entire loone of technical theatre books from the Focal Press is fantastic and i highly recommend them all.

Installing seat speakers is not only ridiculously cost projibitive, but would prove physically impossible in some cases.

As has been said before, perfect spund coverage is impossible for a number of favtors, so they try to hedge bets to create the best overall experience. Often, your best choices to HEAR the suow as designed is just under the mezz overhang or near a wall.

In regards to simple fixes or a speaker not being on, it is often never simple. Much of the design is set programmed, especially as far as distribution and routing to speakers. The mixer can control mic power and volume, but making ot *louder* will not neccessarily fix an issue, especially if part of the issue is white noise drowning out the mix. I can pretty much guarantee that a speaker will never been forgotten when powerering up for many reasons, including sound check before the show, but it is entirely possible for a speaker to fail mid performance. If that happens, there is not a lot an engineer can do other than try to compensate within their ability.

[Mr Roxy]

Posted: 11/15/13 at 6:31pm

With the show closing prematurely doubt anything will be done to correct it

Seeing it next Thursday via TDF. Will report back.

[Dollypop]

Posted: 11/16/13 at 10:09pm

Without giving too much away, another problem with this show's sound is the placement of the orchestra. Certain instruments were coming right at me and blocked out the voices.

[ARTc3]

Posted: 11/16/13 at 10:12pm

I have a great appreciation for the technical aspects of theater. I absolutely appreciate good sound design. I am looking forward to this book.

Sadly, I too doubt that this will be fixed. I have sat in similar seats for Hairspray years ago and the sound was just fine. I realize that different shows have different sound hurdles to overcome, but I do know that it is possible to sit in the first row, center of the mezzanine in the Neil Simon and hear clearly with volume.

I have no doubt that installing speakers into the back of each seat would be extremely expensive. I wasn't suggesting that this be done at the expense of a single production, but perhaps as a spectacular feature to a new theater, or a major renovation of an existing one.

Is there the impetus to do such a thing? I doubt it, but stranger things have happened. And, having sat through both KA and Love, I can tell you the sound when piped through such a system is amazing.

[broadwayguy2]

Posted: 11/17/13 at 12:19am

The costs doing such an install WOULD be folded over and charged to the shows by the landlords. To think otherwise would be a mistake.

The sound design you can have for a show a Cirque style show is very different than what would or could work for a dramatic production, for better AND for worse.

The larger issue is one of space. Most Broadway theatres are landmarked and seating space is at an absolute premium. You have to understand that adding speakers to seats would take up valuable space. Every 1" adds up. You also then deal with issues of wiring and powering speakers and where exactly you can place those wires in a space that was not designed to HAVE those wires. The cirques you mention are in custom designed spaced or gut renovated spaces, where every detail was designed in concert for those elements, including acoustics to allow speakers in every seat without sound growing muddled and aisle spacing and cable runs for wiring.

Beyond that, you then encounter compatibility issues. Remember that a theatre rental comes bare bones - you get four walls, the seats and the counterwieght / hemp fly systems.. no lighting or sound equipment included. By incorporating speakers, you then absolutely hamper the production by narrowing down what sound board and systems they are allowed to use, as they would have to be compatible with whatever sound instruments the landlord elected to use.

Then you get to maintenance, where you have 600-1,900 additional individual instruments that must be checked regularly and maintained as well as miles of extra cable that you have now added. that's 1,000+ potential instrument failures and miles of cable to go through should something go wrong..

[Mr Roxy]

Posted: 11/21/13 at 10:58pm

Saw it tonight & had no problem sound wise. TDF seats were Front mezz dead center. Loved the show & no idea why the vitriol to it in some circles. Score was competent and did not think it was a weak link.

Spoke to cast member @ the door collecting for Equity/Aids. Asked him re cast album and told recording date is 12/5 so it appears to be a go. A shame it is closing prematurely as it deserved a better fate. Thought it far superior to long runs like Wicked etc.

Updated On: 11/21/13 at 10:58 PM

[Matteo]

Posted: 11/22/13 at 1:37am

I caught Big Fish this past weekend and was in the 5th row Orch center. The sound was bad even from there. There were numerous points in the show where I could truly not hear any of the words being said. It was really disappointing. :/