Is Score of Hamilton Better in Context of the Show?- Page 3

[Dave28282]

Posted: 9/10/16 at 5:53am

I think Lin Manuel is not a very talented composer. The background melodies in the rap parts are extremely amateurish (listen to it without the words, it sounds like a highschool project), and most of the sung lines that are supposed to be "catchy" are very uninspired to say the least and often just a bunch of words on 1 note. (when he was 10 his father split...full of it....debt-ridden, etc). 1 note..... or this part: French is following us to revolution there is no more...etc). Seriously? That is not composing. Very boring. Sometimes the last word is 1 note higher or lower. yawn.

Also, the ensemble parts sound like an amateur production, for example "Thomas Jefferson's coming home, times, sung 5 times on the most amateurish melody. 

More often than not this show feels like a parody, with far-fetched chorus parts, amateurish transitions, repetitive parodies, too simple melodies, headflips on the last chord of a song, when a word is shouted, preferably the name of a character, and rap voices that sound so posturing/affected to get the message across, to a point that you think they are about to cry when they rap about how insane this kid was, or a sound that is close to someone mentally disabled trying to speak.

But to stay on topic, the compositions are not very good. 

If anything, I would say that Lin is a lyricist. He does have some witty word jokes. (I said that last time, it became a past time), so we can assume it happened, haha funny. Things like that. Also not on a professional level yet, but witty at times.

Another point I would like to make is how much this show reminds me of RENT. Especially many of the uninteresting ensemble and chorus parts. Strange pauses in the middle. Like they just made it up, no matter the quality. Like all the voicemail stuff and merry christmas stuff. Strange childish melodies that come out of nowhere, and suddenly the chorus shouts something 5 times. And then a pause and another melodie starts. Like "I want this line to be spoken, sung, rapped, and any melody will do". Bizarre.

And many of the songs, like "What'd I miss", remind me of "La vie boheme" or "Christmas bells". A song like "Say no to this" with that silly rhythm reminds me of "light my candle". The opening song is the title of the show shouted 25 times. 

But overall I think RENT is slightly more original in it's melodies and the better show of the 2.

[NZBOY2]

Posted: 9/10/16 at 6:21am

I actually was reminded of  Stephen Sondheim when listening to this. I actually think its very well written the play and music. Both of which were done by LMM. Personally very glad I saw this masterpiece . I love the Sunday in the Park and Adding Machine Albums and this is better.

[NZBOY2]

Posted: 9/10/16 at 6:22am

I think actually the musical might be too intelligent for some

[BroadwayConcierge]

Posted: 9/10/16 at 8:18am

NZBOY2 said: "I think actually the musical might be too intelligent for some"

This thread is proving that. 

[Rumpelstiltskin]

Posted: 9/10/16 at 8:59am

I came to the Hamilton party late because I was frustrated thinking I'd never be find an available ticket, but thanks to two BWW posters I learned of a new block of tickets in April and a new day added in November so my fall/spring travels plans are set.  I was afraid that the singing style would be difficult to follow so I decided to listen to the cast album beforehand.  It's been on repeat for three weeks.  Everyday I hear something new that I can't wait to share with my partner (who is equally obsessed and he never gets obsessed about anything!)  My suggestion to the OP is that if you are inclined to give it another try, start by reading the libretto as if it were a work without music.  The lyrics are rich with double meaning and are frequently multi-layered in that they both comment on the present and, by defining the word differently, telepath the future.   

My favorite example that has been discussed often in these threads is the line "I fought with him" sung by two actors in the opening song as they look back at the life of the title character.  The two actors each play dual roles for a total of four characters.  Two of those characters are telling us that they fought side-by-side with Hamilton against the British, the other two are telling us that they were his political rivals in the early days of the new republic.  There's no way we can recognize this the first time we hear it.  It goes by too fast and we don't know what characters these actors play.

So, OP, if you're still interested, maybe reading the libretto as a book is an approach you'd like to try.  It will give you the time to sit back and appreciate the nuance, give you context for the events that transpire, and (this was a biggie for me) help you distinguish between the characters.

[Oak2]

Posted: 9/10/16 at 9:01am

@BroadwayConcierge and NAZBOYZ2 - I don't think that's proven at all, and I find waving people disliking a show as it being "too intelligent" for them as massively insulting, and a shameless attempt to try to solidify your own view as right in a "Well if you don't agree with me you're just stupid" sort of way. I love Hamilton but I can clearly see how it just might not be to some people's tastes, even if they understand what goes into it. Someone not liking it doesn't mean they're stupid or that it's "too intelligent" for them, and to imply such sounds like you can't come up with any other reason to defend your own stance that it's good other than trying to bring down those who disagree with you. Especially when you can't even (or are too lazy to) bring up your own arguments for WHY it's intelligent - though even if people agree with those points, that doesn't mean they still have to like it. 

Dave28282 brought up some valid, intelligent points in how he doesn't feel Miranda is a good composer. Clearly the show is not "too intelligent" for him. Nor is it "too intelligent" to the people who just don't like what they're hearing. And moreover, one can appreciate the "intellectual" aspects of a piece while still disliking it. Waving off people who dislike a work as "just not smart enough" or not able to "get it" is massively elitist and shows a lack of empathy and attempts to understand another perspective or taste as valid, which is evil.

Outside of that, I do agree with some of the posters that in addition to just listening, reading the lyrics might be good as well, especially because it's one of those where, at least for me, just from listening to it I would miss most of what was being said without knowing beforehand. Most musicals I'm able to just listen to, but Hamilton is SO dense and fast-paced with its lyrics that I had lyrics open for every song as I listened to it so I could follow along. This made it much easier for me to personally appreciate the writing (even moreso looking at it on Genius, which had little footnotes of people analyzing some of the writings and giving me more insight into some of the aspects of the lyrics). I don't know enough about music to appreciate any qualities or lack thereof within it or to speak as to Miranda's skill as a composer, but I find the music enjoyable, and I do personally find the lyrics very well-done with multiple meanings There is again of course nothing wrong if that's not to your taste or if you disagree and don't enjoy the lyrics. It certainly doesn't mean the musical is "too intelligent" for you. It's just not your taste.

Updated On: 9/10/16 at 09:01 AM

[After Eight]

Posted: 9/10/16 at 9:38am

"I think actually the musical might be too intelligent for some."

 

And too sophomoric for others.

[rattleNwoolypenguin]

Posted: 9/10/16 at 9:48am

"I think actually the musical might be too intelligent for some"

 

First of all this is the most eyerolly pretentious statement ever. I don't think that's it at all. Lyrically and contextually I'll admit it's clever and well constructed. Melodically I found it derivative to today's simple melodic structured pop music. I got tired of hearing so many songs written in simple minor progressions.

Thoroughly enjoyed In the Heights musically way more.

Too intelligent...please...it's an insane hit.

Save "too intelligent" for Sondheim or LaChiusa

Updated On: 9/10/16 at 09:48 AM

[Oak2]

Posted: 9/10/16 at 9:55am

@rattleNwoolypenguin - I agree with you that the music in Hamilton is derivative - however, I feel that's sort of the point, and it doesn't really take away from the musical to me, though I can certainly understand if your tastes require more complex music and thus that it's a downside for you. I love it when a musical uses pre-existing styles and is able to kind of shape them as a leitmotif - the big thing is I love how each of the characters has a different kind of style that, when considering the context of the style used for them, helps establish something more about that character (ie, the older/more traditional characters like Jefferson or Washington tend to have songs in older styles of African-American music like boogie or jazz, compared to the more modern rap-ish songs of the younger characters). I found that really neat myself. Again, I can't really speak to the actual composition since I'm not musically trained, but I felt I didn't need to understand any of that in order to enjoy it. 

[aaaaaa15]

Posted: 9/10/16 at 9:56am

Why has Dave19 made a new account calling himself Dave28282? Is it so that people don't call him out for his racism in previous posts?

[After Eight]

Posted: 9/10/16 at 10:06am

"Save "too intelligent" for Sondheim or LaChiusa"

 

You can junk it for those two as well.

Actually, why not junk this obnoxiously condescending phrase altogether? Because pure junk is what it is.

[HogansHero]

Posted: 9/10/16 at 10:56am

I think intelligence is a misnomer in this discussion. I do think some people prefer songs requiring less engagement than others. That would including the posturing troll After Eight if what it said was anything more than a pose. Regarding music, there are 2 levels on which to consider that. First, that on a consumer level, where it is nothing more than an expression of taste. Second, on a technical level (where words like "amateur" would be viewed as unintelligent)  one would begin contextually-where subjective "melody" reactions have no place. So I think when people refer to someone not being intelligent enough they are referring to this sort of facile faux-analysis.

[Oak2]

Posted: 9/10/16 at 11:05am

@HogansHero - I agree with you, there are certainly two levels on which to appreciate something. And surely people can appreciate things very well on a technical level. However, what I take issue with is when people wave off people who dislike something due to their preference for the more consumer levels, or who try to take a stance that people who appreciate it on the technical level are somehow superior to those who prefer the consumer level. The technical level can give a greater appreciation for the aspects of a work, but one certainly should not be required to appreciate something on the technical level or have that knowledge in order for their opinion on a work to be counted as valid. I take issue with those who look down on people who make their judgments primarily from the levels of taste. 

[icecreambenjamin]

Posted: 9/10/16 at 11:30am

I think that it's a pretty lush and intelligent score.  I happen to love it, but I can see why some might not.  To answer the OP, if you didn't like the score, you won't like the show.  The score is the show.

Now I must say that when I first listened to the album I enjoyed LMM's lyrics very much.  His compositions were good as well and I adored the orchestrations.  However, I found myself saying "wait, wtf is happening?" quite often.  The double casting of some roles really wasn't the best idea.  I had to listen to the album multiple times to understand who was who at multiple points in the show and I'm still not completely sure.

Something that bothers me a lot too is how the media has treated it.  It will never live up to expectations.  I'm so happy that I listened to it the very day that it came out, before it had gotten to the masses, so that I could form my own opinion.  I think that it has been so blown out of proportion and fangirled over for me to truly appreciate it.  I love it, but it just makes me feel fatigued at this point.

[HogansHero]

Posted: 9/10/16 at 11:47am

Oak2 said: "@HogansHero - I agree with you, there are certainly two levels on which to appreciate something. And surely people can appreciate things very well on a technical level. However, what I take issue with is when people wave off people who dislike something due to their preference for the more consumer levels, or who try to take a stance that people who appreciate it on the technical level are somehow superior to those who prefer the consumer level. The technical level can give a greater appreciation for the aspects of a work, but one certainly should not be required to appreciate something on the technical level or have that knowledge in order for their opinion on a work to be counted as valid. I take issue with those who look down on people who make their judgments primarily from the levels of taste. "

agree 100%.

Technical appreciation is not about enjoyment; it is about appreciation. The ultimate test of a popular art form is whether it is popular, nothing more. Popularity is a valid and discernible metric but the qualities that make a song or show popular is not, and any attempt to suggest otherwise is narcissistic (or just a posture if you are dealing with a pathology like After Eight's).

[Charley Kringas Inc]

Posted: 9/10/16 at 12:21pm

I think it's very, very good, very, very smart, and very, very dense, and it's underserved by the squeaky clean cast album (though I really hate the sanitized, bland sound of modern cast albums in general).

[aaaaaa15]

Posted: 9/10/16 at 12:23pm

I think it was the right idea to double up the actors for those roles. Otherwise there would be extra actors they were paying that wouldn't appear for the entirety of act 1 or act 2. As for living up to the hype, I don't think it's impossible. I'd say a good proportion of those that have seen it think it did. I personally enjoy seeing something that I think is worthy being lauded over so much, especially when it's in an art form that so rarely gets any popular attention at all.

[gypsy101]

Posted: 9/10/16 at 12:55pm

icecreambenjamin said: "...To answer the OP, if you didn't like the score, you won't like the show.  The score is the show.

...However, I found myself saying "wait, wtf is happening?" quite often.  The double casting of some roles really wasn't the best idea.  I had to listen to the album multiple times to understand who was who at multiple points in the show and I'm still not completely sure.

Something that bothers me a lot too is how the media has treated it.  It will never live up to expectations.  I'm so happy that I listened to it the very day that it came out, before it had gotten to the masses, so that I could form my own opinion..."

Many people have said they didn't love the cast recording and then saw the show and loved it.

Not sure where the confusion comes from multiple characters since the actors play the same characters for an entire act and then are reintroduced, but if you have confusion about the plot or characters maybe take a look at the libretto online http://atlanticrecords.com/HamiltonMusic/

many people have also said that it really does live up to the expectations. I saw it nine months after the recording was released and it still was everything I'd hoped it to be (and I've probably heard the recording approximately 80 times times, although I laid off for 2 months or so before seeing it so it would be a little fresh).

[gypsy101]

Posted: 9/10/16 at 12:59pm

Dave28282 said: "I think Lin Manuel is not a very talented composer. The background melodies in the rap parts are extremely amateurish..."

i could have sworn we'd gotten rid of you when you revealed yourself to be an awful racist mess...

also if you've ever listened to rap music before, you would hear that frequently the rapping is done over a repetitive musical motif before going on to a chorus and then back to a new verse. maybe educate yourself before you attempt to speak of amateurish composing.

[hork]

Posted: 9/10/16 at 2:01pm

NZBOY2 said: "I think actually the musical might be too intelligent for some

 

Yah, i dident unnerstand it. Why wuz they rapping in the civil war?

 

[songanddanceman2]

Posted: 9/10/16 at 2:15pm

I will be open and honest and say I've not seen the show live just on a very naughty bootleg copy (a friend had it), I enjoyed it, I've listened to the cast album but in all honesty I don't see the hype. It's a strong show but also (for me) over bloated in fact and lacking in character depth for many of the characters. I did truly enjoy it though but I think it's hype is overrated. 

 

I also didnt find it as original as others did, if In The Heights had not come first then maybe but lyrical structure, over blown endings to the songs are all Heights and the show is structured like shows like Les Mis, just with less melodrama. 

Personally I thought the most original, unique and exciting show of last season was American Psycho that offered something very fresh. 

[Tom5]

Posted: 9/10/16 at 2:19pm

A question I asked once before but only received a parcel of convoluted (non) answers: Does rap preclude the absence of melody? And if so, does that mean anyone can do it?

[HogansHero]

Posted: 9/10/16 at 2:36pm

Tom5 said: "A question I asked once before but only received a parcel of convoluted (non) answers: Does rap preclude the absence of melody? And if so, does that mean anyone can do it?"

It might help if the first question made sense. "Preclude the absence" means "require the presence."

Anyone can do rap just as anyone can sing or act or dance (barring a disability preventing it). Only talented people can do it well enough to be listened to in public without causing discomfort to the listener, and only supremely talented people can do it on a high profile level like Broadway or at Madison Square Garden or the like. 

[Tom5]

Posted: 9/10/16 at 2:41pm

Yup. My Bad. But without melody (music?)  there will always be a ceiling of quality

[Notadiva2]

Posted: 9/10/16 at 3:27pm

Tom5 said: "Yup. My Bad. But without melody (music?)  there will always be a ceiling of quality

Are you saying that, for you, quality is directly related to the vocal range that a piece demands?