Bandstand or Miss Saigon - Page 3

[Dave28282]

Posted: 6/18/17 at 5:42pm

Anyway, you are clearly prejudiced against the show, because the things you say show you don't understand the show, background, story or intent in the slightest.

And I don't care what POC you are. I treat you as human.

I'm also glad that you really like the show. So do I. But projecting your personal issues and therefore demandig that you want to see a certain race in another show because certain characters don't suit you personally in this one is nonsense. You have to realize that that has nothing to do with the show.

 

 

 

Updated On: 6/18/17 at 05:42 PM

[BroadwayConcierge]

Posted: 6/18/17 at 5:42pm

Seriously, how does Miss Saigon romanticize the Vietnam War? How does it paint a pretty picture in any way? It's a tragic, heartbreaking story. The ways in which its characters find rare joy or happiness are through the human condition (love, optimism)—not circumstance or setting. I mean, really.

[Babe_Williams]

Posted: 6/18/17 at 5:56pm

There is another lengthy thread (maybe the preview thread) about the merits of the story and criticisms of Miss Saigon if people want to have that discussion yet again. The OP just wants a recommendation for a show. 

[GeorgeandDot]

Posted: 6/18/17 at 5:58pm

BC, it skims over a lot of the violence and rape that occurred.  What you see in Miss Saigon is nowhere near as horrible as what really happened.  It's heartbreaking, but I just don't appreciate the portrayal of Asian women.  It shows them as hopeless romantics.  Kim has moments of true human beauty between her and her child, but there are also some very bad Asian stereotypes portrayed and even exploited in some ways.

And Dave, you still aren't understanding what I'm trying to say.  It don't want the characters to have my personality and I don't just have problems with the show because of my personal beliefs.  As an Asian woman, I don't love the stereotypes portrayed.  I don't hate the show because of that.  

I WILL SAY THIS AGAIN IN ALL CAPS SO THAT YOU WILL ACTUALLY READ IT THIS TIME.  I HAVE PROBLEMS WITH THE STRUCTURE OF THE SHOW AND WITH MANY OF THE LYRICS.  I THINK THE ENDING IS TERRIBLE AND CAUSES THE SHOW TO FEEL INCOMPLETE.  MY PROBLEMS WITH THE SHOW AREN'T WITH MY PERSONAL BELIEFS, BUT RATHER WITH THE ACTUAL WRITING OF THE MUSICAL.  

Anyways, I actual really think that the OP should go see Miss Saigon over Bandstand.

[Dave28282]

Posted: 6/18/17 at 6:08pm

I don't think anyone will agree with the women in this show being portrayed as "hopeless romantic".

Kim is written as one of the better full rounded characters in theatre.

And I'm sorry that you hate the ending but the point of this show is to make it feel "incomplete" and bitter. To show the tragic and beautiful side of it. We can only guess what will happen to Tam when he grows up and how he feels or ends up.

This show goes miles and miles beyond stereotypes. 

Updated On: 6/18/17 at 06:08 PM

[Dancingthrulife2]

Posted: 6/18/17 at 8:00pm

GeorgeandDot said: "Dancingthrulife2 said: "GeorgeandDot said: "  It portrays that Asian girl western fantasy that is made fun of in that one scene in M. Butterfly.  Westerners like seeing the uncivilized, niave oriental girl fall for the big strong American GI.  It also perpetuates the whole Asian stripper stereotype, which I've always found to be repulsive in Miss Saigon.  Overall, if look past the show's major problems, you'll love it.

 

"

It sounds like you've only seen the first 40 minutes of the show. 

I specifically said that I saw the original production and this new production......

 

 

"

Then I wonder why you leave out the arc of Kim and the fact she eventually sacrifices herself for Tam, not Chris. I suspect the "Asian stripper stereotype" is one where one would give her own life for her kid.

[GeorgeandDot]

Posted: 6/18/17 at 8:12pm

^That's one of the parts that I find to be beautiful and Eva Noblezada performs that arc gorgeously, but it's ridiculous to ignore that the show does perpetuate female Asian stereotypes.  I do like the show and I think that the character of Kim is very well rounded, but the show is problematic.  This was especially apparent in the original production where they cast a white actor in yellow face as the lead.  The show made it very clear that they were more interested in writing a sweeping romantic tragedy, than they were in telling an authentically Asian story.  It's another Asian story told through western eyes.

Updated On: 6/18/17 at 08:12 PM

[poisonivy2]

Posted: 6/18/17 at 8:16pm

Uh to get back to the OP's query, I'd say go online and listen to samples of music from both shows. Miss Saigon is written in that British 1980's sung-through anthem style, and Bandstand is consciously retro to the 1940's swing music style. Which would you enjoy hearing more for 2 hours?

[Dave28282]

Posted: 6/19/17 at 6:22am

GeorgeandDot said: "I do like the show and I think that the character of Kim is very well rounded, but the show is problematic.  This was especially apparent in the original production where they cast a white actor in yellow face as the lead. "

This has nothing to do with the show.

 

[ebontoyan]

Posted: 6/19/17 at 7:03am

 "GeorgeandDot said: "I do like the show and I think that the character of Kim is very well rounded, but the show is problematic.  This was especially apparent in the original production where they cast a white actor in yellow face as the lead. "

After casting non Asian actor Jonathon Pryce as the first Engineer in the original show in West End in 1989 and Broadway in 1991, the character of the Engineer has been played by Asian actors ever since.  It's been 25 years!  Is that misstep always going to be rehashed many times over every time there is a Miss Saigon revival??!

As for the OP question, I recommend Miss Saigon

 

 

 

Updated On: 6/19/17 at 07:03 AM

[Robbie2]

Posted: 6/19/17 at 9:54pm

Nicole, Did you decide?

Here:

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[A0326T]

Posted: 6/19/17 at 10:52pm

Go see both, if you can. I be in NYC in Aug and have tickets for both shows.

I saw the original Saigon. although it was not perfect, Im hoping this revival shred some light into it. In the past I was asked if I was offended by Saigon since I am Asian, my comment was 'it is theater and someone will be offended.' Because of its subject matter, the portrayal of Asian people, etc., in the end, is what it is. And in war, no one wins.

Bandstand after the Tony telecast I was sold. I like the big band sound. This also deals with the war but I think this is lighter and somewhat upbeat...As opposed to Saigon. But if you are going to choose only one ... I go with Saigon. It is gripping and overblown yet theatretical. And a good cry. 

 

[Wayman_Wong]

Posted: 6/20/17 at 4:14am

Is that misstep always going to be rehashed many times over every time there is a Miss Saigon revival??!

In a word, yes. The ''yellowface'' casting of Jonathan Pryce is part of ''Miss Saigon's'' history. (By the way, a Caucasian actor DID play the Vietnamese Thuy, in London, too.) It was a blunder, and here's what so many people FORGET: Back then, ''Miss Saigon'' tried to defend its casting of Pryce by saying that it made a worldwide search for an Asian actor who could play the Engineer, and claimed it couldn't find ANY. After Equity finally approved Pryce, the show admitted it had made no such search whatsoever. In effect, it slandered the talents of Asian men who never even got to audition for the Engineer. ... So yes, an Asian has played the Engineer ever since Pryce left the Broadway production. Funny how you can find talented Asian guys when you actually look for them.

And now even Mackintosh admits his handling of the ''Miss Saigon'' controversy was ''stupid'' and his ''biggest mistake.'' We shouldn't forget that, anymore than we can forget that ''blackface'' was once considered popular. ''Blackface'' AND ''yellowface'' are racist, period.

Updated On: 6/20/17 at 04:14 AM

[Dave28282]

Posted: 6/20/17 at 5:44am

Anyone who can't look at the characters as being real people in the story and only see them as stereotypes, no matter what else they bring to the table, is racist.

And that's different for every audience member. Some see only race, others see people.

[ebontoyan]

Posted: 6/20/17 at 8:33am

The non Asian Engineer won a Tony for the role.  While Asian Engineer in the revival cannot even get a nomination (and I think Jon Jon is amazing in the role!)  Mistake or not, maybe the producers had hit on something there.  And I'm sure I'll be hit with racist now!!! lol lol Just making an observation

[Lot666]

Posted: 6/20/17 at 9:41am

ebontoyan said: "The non Asian Engineer won a Tony for the role.  While Asian Engineer in the revival cannot even get a nomination (and I think Jon Jon is amazing in the role!)"

This was a terrible oversight by the Tonys, because I believe Mr. Briones is a much better Engineer than Mr. Pryce.

[A0326T]

Posted: 6/20/17 at 11:20am

just an observation ... Miss Saigon is based on Madama Butterly opera / play. I have seen the opera and no one said anything as far as the lead is not Asian. I have seen MAdama Butterfly as black, white. brown etc. And all have I gave their own interpretation. 

[Lot666]

Posted: 6/20/17 at 11:30am

A0326T said: "...Miss Saigon is based on Madama Butterly opera / play. I have seen the opera and no one said anything as far as the lead is not Asian."

Interesting point.

[Robbie2]

Posted: 6/20/17 at 1:58pm

Lot666 said: "ebontoyan said: "The non Asian Engineer won a Tony for the role.  While Asian Engineer in the revival cannot even get a nomination (and I think Jon Jon is amazing in the role!)"

This was a terrible oversight by the Tonys, because I believe Mr. Briones is a much better Engineer than Mr. Pryce.

 

"

Totally, Taking Borle's spot!!!

[GeorgeandDot]

Posted: 6/20/17 at 2:34pm

Dave28282 said: "Anyone who can't look at the characters as being real people in the story and only see them as stereotypes, no matter what else they bring to the table, is racist.

And that's different for every audience member. Some see only race, others see people.

 

This is the stupidest comment that I have ever heard.  POC, like myself, don't want to have their race, culture, and entire history ignored so that you can look at me as "a person".  We want to be looked at as human beings without getting our culture ignored.  There is a problem with Asian stereotypes in American theatre and film.  You cannot deny that.  You are clearly white, so your opinion on this matter doesn't even matter.  You're not Asian!  Of course you're not offended!  

Miss Saigon is a nice western musical about an Asian girl.  It has sexy Asian strippers, Ho Chi Ming's face plastered on T-shirts in the lobby, and to top it all off, yellowface!  I would say that there are some serious stereotypes and definitely some straight up racism coming out of that show, even today.  What Kim does for her child is beautiful and her story is gorgeous, it's just everything that's happening around her that is problematic.  

Ebontoyan, I sent you a PM explaining that I didn't mean to call you racist, but I am retracting that apology.  That statement that you made about yellowface being the right choice is absolutely the most vile and disgusting thing.  It shows who you are, vile and disgusting.  You should be ashamed of yourself.  If that's how you feel, maybe you should reflect on that for a while.

Also, opera is a different art form.  The voice is really the only thing taken into consideration when casting.  While, I probably would not see a production of Madame Butterfly with a non-Asian lead, I understand the reason for doing so.

Also, I hate to break it to you, but a lot of you are being unapologetically racist.  It's clear who you all voted for this election.

 

Updated On: 6/20/17 at 02:34 PM

[A0326T]

Posted: 6/20/17 at 2:50pm

yes. totally understand about the opera. it is the voice. I have seen Cio Cio San  (Madama Butterfly) in Leontyne Price,  Joan Sutherland, Tiri TeKanawa, Montseratt Caballe, Renata Tebaldi .... 

[ebontoyan]

Posted: 6/20/17 at 3:07pm

Thank goodness I can report to mods and block a person.  But I will give you time to read my post before I block.  I am not the one showing vile and disgusting, you are!  Goodbye Felicia!!!

Updated On: 6/20/17 at 03:07 PM

[Dave28282]

Posted: 6/20/17 at 6:10pm

GeorgeandDot said: "We want to be looked at as human beings without getting our culture ignored. "

Then why can't you look past stereotypes and refuse to see the well rounded characters as human beings?

It's a bit contradictory that you focus on that in a show that goes miles and miles beyond stereotypes.

Most other people focus on the bigger picture and real human characters already, feel free to join. 

The fact that Kim works as a bar girl has so little to do with her personality, character and arc, that it is actually quite bizarre you focus on that. The fact that the great actor Jonathan Pryce got a role in 1989, which he did wonderfully, is also a very strange thing to focus on now, in a different time and era, which has nothing to do with this production now. You clearly have decided that you should have something against it, but your points have no merit. You heard a clock ringing somewhere but don't know where the bell-clapper hangs. 

 

 

 

 

[GeorgeandDot]

Posted: 6/20/17 at 6:21pm

^No I'm telling you, AS AN ASIAN PERSON, that the show is a bit offensive.  I'll say it one more time, I like the show, but it has it's moments that make me uncomfortable.

What is your problem? Why are you telling me what my opinion needs to be?

Updated On: 6/20/17 at 06:21 PM

[bwayrose7]

Posted: 6/20/17 at 7:01pm

Dave28282 said: "GeorgeandDot said: "We want to be looked at as human beings without getting our culture ignored. "

Then why can't you look past stereotypes and refuse to see the well rounded characters as human beings?

It's a bit contradictory that you focus on that in a show that goes miles and miles beyond stereotypes.

Most other people focus on the bigger picture and real human characters already, feel free to join. 

The fact that Kim works as a bar girl has so little to do with her personality, character and arc, that it is actually quite bizarre you focus on that. The fact that the great actor Jonathan Pryce got a role in 1989, which he did wonderfully, is also a very strange thing to focus on now, in a different time and era, which has nothing to do with this production now. You clearly have decided that you should have something against it, but your points have no merit. You heard a clock ringing somewhere but don't know where the bell-clapper hangs. 

I'm probably going to get chewed out for this, but why not.

There is a difference, as others have pointed out, between being racist and having an understanding of racial connotations. It is, in fact, possible to see characters as being well-rounded as "characters" but also playing into racial dynamics and tropes that many find uncomfortable. These connotations are not because of some "racist" ideology that exists in a vacuum, but because of history and ideas and experiences that build up over time. And because art works on a symbolic level, we tend to look for or write in those secondary meanings and implications. Ignoring potential implications can come across as lazy or callous. Let's say someone wrote a show with a character who lives only to serve his or her employer. If both the servant and employer are, let's say, white, then we have a Cinderella story at best and an abusive nightmare at worst. But make the servant black, and there is no way to avoid evoking images and themes of slavery. It's not racist to say, I see the cultural and historical connotations and recognize it may be offensive.

There is also the problem of having a very small repertoire to "represent" an entire culture. It would be one thing, I think, to have characters like Kim or Liat if they were among many characters who are written as Asian women. But when they are the only representatives, that perpetuates a stereotype that means an entire group of people are only shown in one way. 

The Vietnam War was tragic, that is true. There were real women like Kim, that is also true. So why couldn't we have a musical about that experience, rather than shoehorning it into a very dated storyline from an old opera that was written in the age of Western imperialism, with all the attendant ideologies?

GeorgeandDot, I hope I didn't step on your discussion or insert myself where I don't have the experiences.