MISS SAIGON
MISS SAIGON
#1MISS SAIGON
Posted: 8/28/23 at 5:29pm
This is a post I have been wanting to write for a long time. I am a theatre and culture lover, I am 1/4th Asian and I have direct family members that were affected by the Vietnam war.
After years of deep and long discussions with friends and family and listening to the original London version again, we came to the conclusion that this show is a masterpiece. The original London version that is. I will elaborate more on that later.
Every now and then there is a show about historical events. Which can be very confronting, hard or uncomfortable at times. This show is that for us too. But often, the writing of a show or the characters can be portrayed as "out of balance", almost "manipulative", such as in Hamilton, which decides for the audience what is good or bad and takes a run with historical figures and situations.
But not Miss Saigon. This show sends audiences home with a deep motivation to explore their own thoughts about what happened to these people and why they did what they did. Far beyond good or bad. Hundreds of thousands of people have lived this story. From the women working in bars to the boat people to the romances with soldiers to children that were born out of it. I speak from first hand experience.
It is important to understand how complicated this war was. People who were involved in the North Vietnamese side at a certain time, will have different views on situations than people on the South side. I'm sure that depending on which year and which area soldiers were deployed, the experiences are going to be different. The sheer perfection of this show is that it takes no side. It rises above that. It is about the core of humanity. A very delicate balancing act of steel.
I am aware that there are people who do not wish to see facts or would rather see other stories too, but that is ok. Do not watch it then or go write other stories too.
I would like to address some of the "controversies", surrounding this show. Such as "The Vietnamese are portrayed as stereotypes and opportunists". Or "Miss Saigon is a White Savior story". Or "Because of Jonathan Pryce's casting the whole show is wrong".
For the uninformed who ask themselves that; Are you upset because the depictions are historically accurate, or because they’re unpleasant to watch? Let’s put some perspective into this: It’s upsetting that Kim is being sold into prostitution at 17. But in reality she more likely would have been 13, or even younger. It’s upsetting that the dancing bar girls in bikinis had to - or were more likely forced to- turn to prostitution for survival, but the opening number in Miss Saigon is by far a more sanitized version of their ordeal, than what actually took place.
Complaining that the Vietnamese characters are portrayed as “opportunists” is ludicrous— what other choice did they have in order to stay alive? As many times as I have watched “The Heat is on in Saigon”, I’ve never once found it to be pleasant, or believed any of the bar girls were having as joyful a time as they were letting on, If it feels lurid, degrading, and dehumanizing, it’s because that’s exactly what this experience was for these women. Watching the women getting manhandled and treated like property is supposed to make the audience cringe, because unlike the GI’s we are not de-sensitized to these abusive conditions.
Miss Saigon is by no means a “White savior” story. Anyone paying attention can recognize that it’s about America’s realization of its own failures to protect the South Vietnamese from their North Vietnamese adversaries, and the human toll this war took on both the soldiers and the Vietnamese. The Americans are not portrayed as heroes- in fact it’s difficult to find any story about the Vietnam War which strongly depicts US soldiers as heroic and proud. Upon returning to the states these men were often characterized as savages and “baby killers” by their own countrymen. Many of these soldiers could not adapt to life after wartime and lost their minds, became homeless, dropped out of society, suffered from severe drug problems and PTSD and/or took their own lives. Christopher Scott wants desperately to believe he has achieved some good fighting in Vietnam, and that bringing back Kim back home will be living proof he did. It’s a flawed justification, and it illustrates how deeply damaged and naive he is, because with or without Kim, the nightmares will still happen.
Some people also make up "There is male ownership, Chris decides". Which is not the case. Chris does not have power over Kim's life in the slightest. Kim decides. It is in the lyrics: "They think they'll decide your life. No. It will be me". There is only female ownership. The moment when Ellen tells her she's married to Chris, Kim steps over it and makes a plan for her child. Kim decides.
About the casting of the Engineer, I find a vital component to the character regrettably missing in all recent portrayals. I saw Pryce (without prosthetics) in the original Broadway show, and his performance was so phenomenal and spellbinding that it devastated me. The Engineer is "Bui-Doi”, half French-half Vietnamese, and the contrast of Pryce’s western facial features to those of his Asian cast members was heartbreakingly evident. All his life the secrets were written on his face.. and he could not escape or hide them. He could not blend in. This is why he was forever doomed to such a degrading fate in Saigon as a pimp and outsider, and why his “American Dream of moving to a country where he could more easily assimilate mattered so much to him. It’s why he developed the deep affection towards Tam, because he recognized himself in that child. I really dislike how they changed the Engineer to not care about Tam in newer productions. He just became such a bland character recently.
In Pryce’s performance I felt the intensity of his torment and self-contempt lurking beneath all the smiles and ingratiating cordialities. Whereas in all the other productions, The Engineer seems to exist for the purpose of providing comic-relief and tension breaking levity, like an adorable teddy bear. One of the most important aspects of this role is that he is not accepted by the Vietnamese because he doesn’t look Asian. He is the Bui Doi that this show is about.
The new versions with even more sanitized bar scenes and fully Asian engineers that do not stand out in Vietnam and just like to go to America is actually degrading to the real people that have lived through this. People like me and my family. I relate to this very much because nobody can tell I am partly Asian, while in fact it is part of my history. This is something different from complaining what kind of job characters do or good or bad. Even though wanting to hush the stories of these bargirls is also disrespectful.
The Engineer is not a jolly guy. He is ruthless, and we aren’t supposed to root for him. However, by the time he comes on stage to sing about The American Dream, we come to understand him better. He was a strange looking boy, his mom was an addict, and after the dad left them his job was to find French soldiers and persuade them to have sex with his mother for money. That tells us so much about why the Engineer was the way he was, being a pimp was all he ever knew how to be..It’s so tragic.
In the more degrading, sanitized UK version of the show this summer (which portrayed the girls as victims, the Americans as bullies, choosing sides, all the lines and situations so preventive that it actually makes it more uncomfortable), The Engineer was changed to a female. I do not agree with that choice, because the power dynamic is not the same. Males have greater agency and authority in Vietnamese culture, so to be a male and sell your own mother is a far more shameful and devastating predicament to be in. Plus, if the Engineer were a girl, it’s more likely that the mother would’ve sold her daughter to the soldiers.
The original version had this perfect balance of reality and facts, without choosing sides, without writing in good or bad. The quality of writing in this show was majestic and you can see all the research and intense conversations with the real women and boat people paid off. It was a masterpiece. It forced the audiences to look at all sides. Newer versions fail to understand that balance.
I encourage all of you to approach this show with an open, worldly mind, when you see a negative article about this show, or an unfounded complaint, to not let it drag you down into their unfounded hate but to think for yourself.
#2MISS SAIGON
Posted: 8/28/23 at 6:08pm
Seb28 said: " The quality of writing in this show was majestic and you can see all the research and intense conversations with the real women and boat people paid off."
Yeah it was researched so thoroughly they had a song in made-up Vietnamese, maybe they should have listened better during those conversations
#3MISS SAIGON
Posted: 8/28/23 at 6:29pm
That was a technical flub. And the lines are actually Vietnamese.
Dju vui vay
Yu doi my
Dju vui vay
Vao nyay moy
These were actually Vietnamese, meaning "You are happy", "I am happy", "Come on now". Actually provided by the Vietnamese women.
There only was a discussion about a letter and some found the lines random. Is that all you have to say about the show?
chewy5000
Broadway Legend Joined: 12/1/09
#4MISS SAIGON
Posted: 8/28/23 at 10:24pm
The Forbidden Broadway parody from when it opened was pretty brutal yet spot on, comparing the lyrics of Sun and Moon to that of a Hallmark card.
#5MISS SAIGON
Posted: 8/28/23 at 11:49pm
Everyone is entitled to their opinion of course but the suggestion that Miss Saigon is less manipulative than Hamilton is... quite a take.
#6MISS SAIGON
Posted: 8/29/23 at 12:14am
I wish the show had left room for applause at the end of THE MOVIE IN MY MIND.
#7MISS SAIGON
Posted: 8/29/23 at 2:57am
To seb 28... A very interesting read, thanks. Google SEAN MILEY MOORE and watch ALL of his youtubes. He is playing the Engineer in the Australian Opera production of Miss Saigon. I have not seen and probably will not see as it is only playing Sydney and Melbourne but from the reviews and words from Cameron Mac., Sean M M is a sensation He has an English Father and Mother from the Phillipines. I would be very interested to hear your response. This young man at just 25 has, I feel, an amazing future if he can find roles for his unique talent. 'Cabaret'?
#8MISS SAIGON
Posted: 8/29/23 at 4:39am
chewy5000 said: "The Forbidden Broadway parody from when it opened was pretty brutal yet spot on, comparing the lyrics of Sun and Moon to that of a Hallmark card."
You think the real experiences between those people were any different? They were desperately looking for something sweet in hellish wartime. Even talking themselves into it being true love with sweet words. Wanting to convince themselves. Miss Saigon is spot on too.
#9MISS SAIGON
Posted: 8/29/23 at 4:46am
Mr. Wormwood said: "Everyone is entitled to their opinion of course but the suggestion that Miss Saigon is less manipulative than Hamilton is... quite a take."
They really are quite the opposite in handling that.
#10MISS SAIGON
Posted: 8/29/23 at 4:51am
BalconyClub said: "I wish the show had left room for applause at the end of THE MOVIE IN MY MIND."
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kl-1xzJ3kyU&t=744s
They have.
#11MISS SAIGON
Posted: 8/29/23 at 5:19am
SweetLips22 said: "To seb 28... A very interesting read, thanks. Google SEAN MILEY MOORE and watch ALL of his youtubes. He is playing the Engineer in the Australian Opera production of Miss Saigon. I have not seen and probably will not see as it is only playing Sydney and Melbourne but from the reviews and words from Cameron Mac., Sean M M is a sensation He has an English Father and Mother from the Phillipines. I would be very interested to hear your response. This young man at just 25 has, I feel, an amazing future if he can find roles for his unique talent. 'Cabaret'?"
Thank you for the tip! I had only seen him quickly in an interview from the Australian production. Not knowing his background, voice or performances. I have watched several of his performances and I would love to see his take on the Engineer. There seems to be a truth and strength to him that could fit the role very well. He doesn't feel like comic relief. He feels like the real thing. I hope they do go down the realistic, gritty and dirty path, not a glamorized, sanitized version of the show that we often see lately, which could harm his performance.
#12MISS SAIGON
Posted: 8/29/23 at 11:22am
I don't have any big issue Miss Saigon. I didn't see it on Broadway, but the casting controversy never made much of an impact on me because everything I'd seen on television of Jonathan Pryce's performance struck me as a knowing wink at British stage impersonations of Asian characters going all the way back to the Mikado. It seemed meta and highly presentational to me, analogous to that Joel Grey's Emcee in Cabaret. When I got to see the show in a very good regional production that utilized cast members from various iterations of the Broadway run in all the major roles (Francis Ruivivar was the Engineer), I expected to enjoy it.
But I was really disappointed in how drearily operetta-like it was, and how it actually had less guts than Madame Butterfly. I don't exactly think of Madame Butterfly as any sort of daring work, but Pinkerton is clearly a scoundrel who destroys Cio-Cio-San through his total self-absorption and callous disregard for her as a human being, and Puccini's ironic use of the Star-Spangled Banner is an interesting motif. Miss Saigon makes everyone into a good guy, and the Pinkerton equivalent is blandly Nelson Eddy-like in his earnestness and good-intentions. How can an old "exotic" chestnut of an opera be more daring or truthful than a modern recreation directly addressing the issues around a conflict as significant as the Vietnam War? Well, it is.
ErmengardeStopSniveling
Broadway Legend Joined: 9/20/18
#13MISS SAIGON
Posted: 8/29/23 at 11:25am
I'd like to see it done by a Vietnamese director/creative team sometime (with, ahem, less involvement from Cameron & co.) It's a tremendous score and an emotional evening.
SeanD2
Stand-by Joined: 5/2/17
#14MISS SAIGON
Posted: 8/29/23 at 12:06pm
The claim that the Engineer is Eurasian is not actually supported by the text, which specifically states:
My father was a tattoo artist in Haiphong
But his designs on mother didn't last too long
My mother sold her body, high on Betel nuts
That's all we know of his heritage. Now some productions include his boss in Bangkok calling him a "half-breed" but that's not been consistently used over the years.
#15MISS SAIGON
Posted: 8/29/23 at 12:10pm
joevitus said: "operetta-like"
I do love the fact that it is written that way, there is not one moment in the show where they change the language of storytelling or the artform, so to speak. Those switches always take me out of the journey. But I do agree that very few versions after the original have been able to do the material justice.
joevitus said: "Miss Saigon makes everyone into a good guy"
That is true, because all situations are so complex that you understand the motives. But I love it. It forces you to look beyond good or bad, the standard evil versus good and it turns the show into a psychological thriller.
#16MISS SAIGON
Posted: 8/29/23 at 12:16pm
SeanD2 said: "some productions include his boss in Bangkok calling him a "half-breed" but that's not been consistently used over the years."
He also sings about the French. It has been consistent in the versions I have seen, but I am not sure about the sanitized versions that can't look past these kind of terms and delete everything. He is described this way in every casting call. Also, his reasoning and motives throughout the whole show reflect that. The essence of it is that he is the Bui Doi.
SeanD2
Stand-by Joined: 5/2/17
#17MISS SAIGON
Posted: 8/29/23 at 12:21pm
Seb28 said: "SeanD2 said: "some productions include his boss in Bangkok calling him a "half-breed" but that's not been consistently used over the years."
He also sings about the French. It has been consistent in the versions I have seen, but I am not sure about the sanitized versions that can't look past these kind of terms and delete everything.
"
Of course he sings about the French, but he never says he is French or of any French decent. The claim he was Eurasian was specifically made after the controversy involving Pryce's portrayal. Plus the line about being a "half-breed" was not included on the original London cast album.
#18MISS SAIGON
Posted: 8/29/23 at 12:34pm
The London cast recording is not complete. He was already called Eurasian in the first documentaries before the London premiere.
#19MISS SAIGON
Posted: 8/29/23 at 12:41pm
Thank you, seb28, for your thoughts. I have no Asian heritage so my opinion doesn't really matter, and many individuals far more educated on the subject than I have wrote about Miss Saigon's controversies.
That said...I agree with many of your points. Growing up in 1990's New York, seeing the first Broadway production is one of my fondest childhood memories of theatergoing. I found it deeply, deeply moving, and the experience was made even better by the fact that after the show, the actors hung out and talked with me at the stage door (this was like, 1997 before stage doors became insane). I understand why some people hate the show, but it was a product of its time, and is certainly an improvement on Madama Butterfly, which is way, way more offensive in my opinion.
#20MISS SAIGON
Posted: 8/29/23 at 4:51pm
Seb28 said: "joevitus said: "operetta-like"
I do love the fact that it is written that way, there is not one moment in the show where they change the language of storytelling or the artform, so to speak. Those switches always take me out of the journey. But I do agree that very few versions after the original have been able to do the material justice.
joevitus said: "Miss Saigon makes everyone into a good guy"
That is true, because all situations are so complex that you understand the motives. But I love it. It forces you to look beyond good or bad, the standard evil versus good and it turns the show into a psychological thriller."
No, it doesn't. Everyone being good and earnest doesn't make for complexity in this show. It makes for easy excuses and not having to actually acknowledge the inhumane treatment the Vietnamese actually suffered at the hands of U.S. soldiers.
#21MISS SAIGON
Posted: 8/29/23 at 4:56pm
The characters do not make excuses, but live with the consequences and the audiences see what's going on.
#22MISS SAIGON
Posted: 9/10/23 at 4:11am
SweetLips22 said: "To seb 28... A very interesting read, thanks. Google SEAN MILEY MOORE and watch ALL of his youtubes. He is playing the Engineer in the Australian Opera production of Miss Saigon. I have not seen and probably will not see as it is only playing Sydney and Melbourne but from the reviews and words from Cameron Mac., Sean M M is a sensation He has an English Father and Mother from the Phillipines. I would be very interested to hear your response. This young man at just 25 has, I feel, an amazing future if he can find roles for his unique talent. 'Cabaret'?"
Last week there was a media call for the Australian press, where they performed 3 little segments from the show. Even though I do not like the sets of this version (the show would benefit more from intimate little sets front/center stage, like the original, not everything drowning on a vast black stage), I think that the direction of this production is top-notch. Kim, Chris and the Engineer are fantastic singers (so is Thuy in these clips), it is like they have paid attention to every little note and detail. Beautiful nuances in direction and little changes in the music as well. In my opinion this version is 10 times better than the filmed London revival. The performers and director understand the material much better. After your tip I went to search for more clips and background info of this version. I think Sean Miley Moore's Engineer is great. He is completely savage. But not in a comedic way as the more recent Engineers have been portrayed. There is a truth to him, a necessity in his portrayal to survive and find the future he wants which makes you love him in a different way. A way in which I've never viewed the Engineer before. He is authentic and wild and therefore true and funny and tragic and sympathetic. You get the feeling that he could dress up as a girl to please marines one day, and kill someone the next day if he has to. An outcast that you learn to love because you see where he is coming from. It's his authenticity. Also, he is in fact Eurasian. On top of that he sings the score very well and plays with it.
Updated On: 9/10/23 at 04:11 AM
Zeppie2022
Broadway Star Joined: 7/12/22
#23MISS SAIGON
Posted: 9/12/23 at 6:46pm
This show is one I am sad that I never got around to seeing.
#24MISS SAIGON
Posted: 11/20/23 at 8:54am
Zeppie2022 said: "This show is one I am sad that I never got around to seeing."
I don't know where you are from but there is an amazing production in Australia at the moment. It just premiered in Melbourne after its Sydney run. It is getting rave reviews.
I feel like this production gets everything right and I wish this one could be filmed. Maybe it's time for a definitive version, 10 years after the previous recording.
Updated On: 11/20/23 at 08:54 AM
