Effie White -- Does She Have To Be "Heavy?"- Page 3

[MargoChanning]

Posted: 6/16/05 at 12:58am

Nell was certainly a GREAT talent and a great actress and singer and would have been a first-rate Effie. I can only imagine how brilliant she'd have been in the acting scenes -- all that attitude and sass and ego, but still with an underlying vulnerability. I wonder if she ever performed or recorded "And I Am Telling You" anywhere? It'd be very interesting to hear it.

FYI, for those who don't know what we're talking about, Carter did the very first workshop when the show was still called "Big Dreams." But, rather than stick with the fledgling project (which, at that time, was workshopping at Bennett's 890 Studios, but didn't officially have Bennett on board as the director-choreographer of the project -- he was still feeling it out and acting as more of a consultant), by the time of the second workshop, she had moved to Hollywood and become a tv star with "Gimme A Break").

And I do love Kelly Price. Her "A Friend of Mine" is an amazing vocal performance that's so addictive to me that I've been known to listen to it on repeat for dozen times or more in a row.

[silent]

Posted: 6/16/05 at 1:21am

Truth - I saw Kelly in Atlanta for the Women of Soul concert about a month ago or so and she looked like she didn't even want to be there. She sounded fine but the passion was non-existent.

rKrispyt - I think I'm in agreement with those who see Effie as a "large woman." I often find myself drawn to the talents in the industry who are shunned because they're not considered "marketable." The story of DREAMGIRLS IS the MTV story (as someone mentioned earlier). However, if they do find a talented actress/singer who isn't necessarily overweight but isn't considered "marketable" for the part, I think I can accept that. But the weight issues adds more considerable depth. Many plus-sized or "regular" women will see the story and maybe see a bit of themselves.

[Thetruth]

Posted: 6/16/05 at 1:48am

I'm not sure if she ever sung "And I'm Telling You" because I believe it was added after she left the workshop. Correct me if I'm wrong?

There are recording of her singing other songs from the show floating around...

I do believe she would've done quite well in the role. Nell's another tragic story. She died with $200 in her bank account.

[MargoChanning]

Posted: 6/16/05 at 2:10am

And let me just clarify what I said in my initial post. I'm not saying that Effie CAN'T be or SHOULDN'T be overweight, just that she doesn't HAVE to be. I agree that it can add some very interesting dimensions (literally) to the character if she is at least a little "plump" (as someone else said, it's great shorthand to explain her firing), but I was just making the point that some of the best Effies weren't overweight and the show works just as well with them in the lead role (I don't have the review -- it's not online and not in "Hot Seat" -- but, a couple of Julia's oldest friends separately told me that Frank Rich re-reviewed the show when McGirt did it and said something to the effect of that she was the definitive Effie and better than Holliday).

I really just want the best singer/actress available to do the role. Part of the reason I prefer an unknown is that I cannot think of a single (overweight or not) black female major celebrity who would be ideal casting for Effie -- vocally at least. There are lots of good singers out there who have followings, but none of the ones on the celebrity A-list or even B- or C-list compares singing-wise to Holliday or McGirt or Lillias White. That kind of voice is just not what sells records anymore (Aretha's and Patti Labelle's and Gladys Knight's heydays were more than a generation ago). So since there isn't a "name" actress/singer out there who can do the role, then forget about names and just go out and find the best possible person. After all, Condon already has his "names" for box office insurance (Beyonce, Eddie Murphy, et al), so he can afford to cast a complete unknown as Effie.

Holliday herself got discovered while she was still singing gospel in obscurity. While on tour with "A Chorus Line" a dancer named Jamie Rodgers happened to turn on the tv in his hotel room one Sunday morning while the show was in Houston. As he was flipping channels, he stopped when he heard a young 19 year old girl singing gospel on a local church telecast. He'd never seen a talent like this one and was completely bowled over by her voice. He immediately called his friend Vinnette Carroll back in New York, whom he knew was struggling to find a replacement for the great Delores Hall as the lead singer in a proposed Broadway return engagement of her gospel musical "Your Arms Too Short To Box With God." The show was then on tour and Hall was ready to leave after having done the role for over 2 years. The tv station was contacted, an unknown Jennifer Holliday was located and it was arranged for her to fly to New York to audition for Carroll.

Holliday had never been out of Houston before, knew NOTHING whatsoever about Broadway or musicals or theatre and had no idea that this trip was about to change her life forever. When she met Carroll at the audition, Holliday seemed quiet and shy and demure and Carroll remembered thinking "Oh dear, there's no way this girl is going to be able to do this role." Holliday started singing with such power and passion and intensity that it brought Carroll to her feet by the end. Suffice to say, she got the part. Once the show opened, the buzz around Broadway about his new young plump little girl with an enormous voice reached Bennett's ears, leading him to go see her and the rest is history.

I hope Condon knows that story and realizes that his ideal Effie is not reading Backstage or Variety or knows/cares anything at all about Broadway musicals or musical films. She's singing gospel somewhere at a church as we speak and might pop up on a local broadcast some Sunday morning. Had Jamie Rodgers overslept that Sunday, Jennifer Holliday would very probably still be in Houston and singing in that same church. I hope Condon's scouts and assistants do their jobs and find that next great Effie wherever she is out there in the country.

[MargoChanning]

Posted: 6/16/05 at 2:37am

Truth --

You're right that "And I Am Telling You" was created after Carter left the first workshop. I seem to remember that it was Holliday's vocals on other numbers that inspired Krieger and Eyen to come up with the song. They specifically tailored it to all of those unique things that Holliday's voice could do that few others could even attempt. Once they had written it, they pulled Holliday into a separate rehearsal room to teach it to her and soon after had her perform it for Bennett.

Bennett later said that, even at that very early stage, it was so completely overwhelming to witness her do it, that before the end of that very first performance of it, he had to walk out of the room. The creative team had struggled up to that point to figure out what the show was really going to be about, but from that moment on, the show became about that song and that moment and making the rest of the show fit and conform to it.

When later Holliday and Bennett had a major falling out (she quit, according to her, or he fired her, according to him), he said that even though he hired other talented singers to replace her, none of them could capture that pain and power. He could never get her version of the song out of his head and realized had to find a way to woo her back. Bennett, the consummate manipulator, contacted her, took her to a few Broadway shows (she'd never seen any), took her to dinner, wined and dined her and charmed her so completely, that she came back to the show. Not only that, in her 20 year old, innocent, virgin mind, she came to believe that they we dating and eventually started telling people that they were going to get married. Bennett -- who was perhaps bisexual, but had a decided preference for men -- strung her along in order to not only to get her to stay in the show, but to get the performance out of her that he needed. He gave her line readings, demonstrated the blocking for her and totally created her performance for her -- line by line, moment by moment.

Before opening night of "Dreamgirls" everyone talked about it being the "new Michael Bennett show." After opening night, in papers across the country, the press was all about the discovery of a new Broadway major star, Jennifer Holliday. Holliday was the toast of Broadway and Bennett finally had his follow-up hit to "A Chorus Line."

I don't know exactly how Bennett resolved the whole "marriage/relationship" issue with Holliday, but obviously that never came to pass and he must have found a way to let her down easy, because to this day, she credits Michael Bennett for every positive thing that's ever happened to her in her career.

Updated On: 6/16/05 at 02:37 AM

[morosco]

Posted: 6/16/05 at 10:55am

Since this has become a thread with some great information from Margo I thought I'd post a link to Frank Rich's review. He really captures the excitement of the original broadway production. It should be required reading for anyone who hasn't seen the show.
New York Times

[doodlenyc]

Posted: 6/16/05 at 11:24am

Great info, Margo...thank you!
I never knew that Holliday thought that she and Bennett were dating...her innocence makes me love her more, and wonder HOW she put forth that performance!

I've been thinking that it doesnt matter if Effie is heavy or not, but am in line with the good points made by Thibodeaux and rKrispyt that it might be "better" if she was. I add to the point about "Heavy" that a girl who is merely pregnant might not bite back with the line, "youre lyin, your lyin, I've never been so thin." That does sound like someone with weight issues.

It is clear how much this musical means by this discussion alone. Also that they are making this movie, finally, after all these years.

The casting notice, I know it has been posted, does call for a girl who is big in stature and voice (paraphrase.) I assume that is what they will be looking for.

[gymman]

Posted: 6/16/05 at 11:41am

Great link...I have never forgotton the opening to that review (which is more than I can say for any of Brantley's.

Thanks, Margo, for explaining the weight gain Holliday had; I saw the show 3 times in the first 10 months, and I could not figure out what was going on with that! Right after it opened, Holliday was slightly overweight, but not "fat"; by the third time I saw her, she had put on at least 75 pounds, which did indeed shift the emphasis of the character. The plausibility of Curtis' initial attraction to her became suspect, for one thing.
But how can I describe the experience of that number? I could not understand how she could do it night after night.

BTW--for me, the show never does fully recover from it; I wonder what it would have been if Effie had "dissappeared" in Act II?

[rKrispyt]

Posted: 6/16/05 at 11:57am

MARGO - 2 questions...

1. Why not Lillias for the movie? It wasn't THAT long ago that she portrayed Effie in the EC/BFA Concert version of Dreamgirls...

2. Out of curiousity (I apologize if I asked this before), why is it you and others are so intent on finding an unknown for this role and this movie? I've just never seen you be so adamant about that regarding other shows/movie-musicals and am curious if it's because of the history with Holliday having been an unknown herself or a preference towards Dreamgirls or what? I just...wish there was someone with your persistence for shows and other movie-musicals, saying those same things regarding finding unknowns for other shows...

[gymman]

Posted: 6/16/05 at 12:34pm

no offense, but Lillas is way to old now; she first played Effie 1987.

[doodlenyc]

Posted: 6/16/05 at 12:50pm

Have to agree w/ Gym...she was my favorite Effie, but even onstage she looked a bit old for the part.

Upset that she isnt doing Missy in the Purlie revival...she was amazing in the Encores concert.

[gymman]

Posted: 6/16/05 at 12:56pm

Irony--I think that Loretta Devine is playing Missy~

[doodlenyc]

Posted: 6/16/05 at 1:09pm

She is...spooky!

[Hanna from Hamburg]

Posted: 6/16/05 at 1:21pm

I think to have the most impact with the audience, Effie cannot be someone that America has seen before. Otherwise, you are seeing Effie with overtones of American Idol, or other Broadway/TV/Movie experiences clouding your experience. If you don't know anything about the person portraying the character, I believe it's easier to take an "unencumbered" ride.

For example, I think with the move "The Hours," if you didn't KNOW that Nicole Kidman was starring in that, your perceptions throughout the movie would have been different. A friend of mine didn't know anything about "The Hours" and entered the theatre after the opening credits. It was during the closing credits that she saw that Nicole was starring and she was floored. It's difficult, as an audience member, to not carry some of the "history" with you when viewing.

Secondly, known or unknown, the actress who is hired to portray Effie NEEDS to make the music her own. Jennifer Hudson (who has a FABULOUS voice) seems to be attempting to recreate Jennifer Holliday's interpretation of the music. That is, I think, a key to failure for this endeavor. While much of the public will be wanting to hear Jennifer Holliday's musical interpretation again, any attempt an actress makes to recreate that will be difficult because all of those grunts and runs seem to have a purpose and meaning behind them, which is why they work for Jennifer Holliday. Without that subtext, it's hard to understand why you are listening to the vocal pyrotechnics.

[MargoChanning]

Posted: 6/16/05 at 1:37pm

I love Lillias, but she's 53 years old now -- she'd look like Deena and Lorrell's mother (Curtis' too) -- especially on screen. The Dreams are supposed to be teenagers in Act I and seven years older in Act II. Even CGI couldn't make White look like a teenager.

My reasoning for wanting an unknown is clearly explained above -- as far as I know, there are NO "name" singers or actresses who can handle the role. Hence, they should go with an unknown, rather than some celebrity who can't do the part justice. Effie is an extraordinarily demanding role and the pool of singers out there in the world who would be able to fully take it on is tiny -- and consists entirely of unknowns.

Hanna's point about the need for whomever is cast to make the role their own is a good one. Bennett encouraged each Effie he cast to do just that and insisted on them not doing an imitation of Holliday. What worked for Holliday doesn't necessarily work for anyone else. That's why McGirt was very different from Sharon Brown who was very different from Brenda Pressley who was very different from Kecia Lewis and they all were different from Holliday. They each played to their own unique strengths and they and the show were better off for that.

Updated On: 6/16/05 at 01:37 PM

[gymman]

Posted: 6/16/05 at 1:45pm

Would Queen Latifah work?

[Hanna from Hamburg]

Posted: 6/16/05 at 1:53pm

I think she could maybe act it, but I feel she would also play to old and I'm not sure that she has the pipes to handle it.

[bjivie2]

Posted: 6/16/05 at 1:54pm

Latifah? Effie is supposed to be 18. Margo's right, Condon is going to have to go to little churches down South to find someone perfect. There is NO ONE that's a name that can handle the role, and I would much rather see someone be discovered for the role, anyways.

[Thetruth]

Posted: 6/16/05 at 5:14pm

Queen could act the role (I think she could play younger)but there is no way she would ever be able to sing it.

Aside from unknowns, I hope that some bway names are brought in to fill some of the other parts.

[dreamboy2004]

Posted: 6/16/05 at 7:21pm

Although I was rooting for Tarralyn Ramsey to get an audtion at least , but if it came down it I want to see an unknown casted. My reason being just like Hanna said if they cast someone well known we'll already have preconceptions of them.Much like every one has with Beyonce playing Deena. But if someone totaly new to the entertainment industry is casted well only think of them as Effie. Just like Angela Basset when she was casted as Tina Turner she was praticaly unkown except I think she may have did MalcomX and The Jackson Five tv movie before that but everyone just accepted her as Tina Turner because there was nothing else to base her on. Plus I want to see a star in the making. Everyone talks about leaving the Imperial theater after seeing Jennifer Holliday and knowing they had just witnessed magic and I want that feeling.

[MargoChanning]

Posted: 6/16/05 at 7:27pm

FYI --

The past tense of "cast" is "cast," not "casted." In fact, there is no such word as "casted."

[dReAmiNgAwAkE]

Posted: 6/16/05 at 8:20pm

margo margo margo....I must first say that I have been reading this message boards for months and never registered even though I've wanted to commet etc....but after reading your posts about my absolute favorite show , Dreamgirls, I had to give in. First, thank you for all of you insights and history of the show. BUT IM GONNA BE GREEDY AND ASK FOR MORE INFO....IVE BEEN READING EVERYTHING OVER AND OVER AND NOW I WANT TO KNOW EVERYTHING BEING THAT THERE IS LIMITED AS TO NO INFO ONLINE ABOUT THE SHOW IN DEPTH...I WOULD LOVE EITHER ANOTHER POST OR EMAIL ABOUT MORE JENNIFER HOLLIDAY INFO WITH THE SHOW ETC...I KNOW IM BEING GREEDY OR IRKSOME BUT I'M HUNGRY FOR MORE INFO MARGO....FEED ME FEED ME ! THANK YOU

[Marquise]

Posted: 6/16/05 at 8:51pm

Margo, your fan base is growing...

[broadwaybelter]

Posted: 6/16/05 at 8:56pm

very brilliant margo, I dont mean to argue your brilliant thinking but in a production a of DreamGirls I saw, the synopsis was described inside the playbill and said that one of the reasons effie was kicked out of the group was because of her figure. Her looks didn't match the groups new look so they had to stay with the times and style. Also in the beginning of the play the characters exchange this bit of dialogue:
A: my dress is too tight
B: you have the same dress as i do?
A: yea
B: you have the same wig as i do?
A: yea
B: then shut up

[Marquise]

Posted: 6/16/05 at 9:05pm

Her looks didn't match the groups new look so they had to stay with the times and style.

It's a little more than that. Yes, Curtis' quest to crossover into the pop world forces him to put Deena into the lead spot not only because Deena has "the look" he wants to mold the group around but also because Deena has the "lighter" (read: more pop) sound that he needs to cross the group over. Effie's sound is too "gritty", too "gospel" and too "soul" for him to be able to do that.

Looks may play a part in the decision but the sound overrides it. If Effie had been thinner and still sang the same way I feel that Curtis would have made the change anyway due to the sound he wanted to achieve.

Deena just happened to have both the look and the sound he was looking for.