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[kdogg36]

Posted: 5/24/16 at 6:32pm

@z5 said: "And I'm not a theater fan? But I bet if I were posting pro-Hillary stuff you'd be fine with that. It completely shows the inability to see other sides."

Every so often, I've posted things that are contrary to the prevailing political mood of a thread (I'm a small-l libertarian). I was neither ignored nor attacked. I suspect the problem is that you're not approaching this in a way that invites civil discussion.

 

Updated On: 5/24/16 at 06:32 PM

[sabrelady]

Posted: 5/24/16 at 6:55pm

'nother interesting article:

U.S. into a ‘post-truth’ universe?

There has always been a certain level of “truthiness” in U.S. politics, but some analysts now wonder if they’ve entered a world where facts simply don’t matter.

By OLIVIA WARDForeign Affairs Reporter

2:15 PM, Tues., May 24, 2016

 

It’s a fact.

Donald Trump is now the Republican party’s presidential nominee: the “hair apparent.”

But facts, in Trump’s campaign, are thin on the ground.

Trump’s ascendancy has proved that in politics, as in war, the first casualty is truth. And his critics say Trump’s fast-and-loose relationship with facts has so surpassed the truthiness of earlier eras that it has entered a parallel “post-truth” universe.

“This is a quantum leap,” says Ralph Keyes, author of The Post-Truth Era: Dishonesty and Deception in Contemporary Life. “Bill Clinton had a fraught relationship with truth. Hillary had her own problems. But nothing on the scale of Donald Trump. He is the perfect illustration of the post-truth candidate.”

Trump has demonstrably lied, prevaricated and waffled on subjects from his business success and relationships with women to terrorism and world trade. He has done it even when there’s no need to.

He has impersonated his own spin doctor in interviews. He has falsely denigrated Muslims and Mexicans, spearheaded the bizarre “birther” movement claiming Barack Obama was born outside the U.S., pretended he knew nothing about a Klu Klux Klan leader who backed him, and claimed that the vast majority of white murder victims were killed by black people. Daily, the list gets longer.

Although “truthiness” has been creeping into the American political discourse for decades — even before comedian Stephen Colbert used the term to skewer George W. Bush’s attempts to justify his invasion of Iraq — Trump has left it behind in the dust.

“What’s new is that Trump has no shame,” says Ari Rabin-Havt, co-author of Lies, Incorporated: The World of Post-Truth Politics. “His thing is to lie shamelessly, without remorse. Trump has no boundaries.”

He adds, “Trump is the first person to convert a reality show into a campaign. It’s a pretty spectacular moment in American history for that to happen. It frankly sickens our politics.”

It’s not an entirely new phenomenon, says Keyes. The stage has been set over decades of “relativist” philosophy, in which you can have your own facts as well as your own opinions.

“Trump isn’t working in a vacuum. And it’s not simply Republicans. And it’s not just politics. We’re living in a very relativist ethical environment.

“We’re seeing in the current campaign the ascendence of reality shows, talk radio, cable news, in which the ability to attract attention and be louder than the next person invites deception.”

When truth doesn’t capture attention, he adds, more exciting lies will fill the gap. “An ambitious person could say, ‘if telling the truth won’t get me where I want to go, I’ll fudge a little.’ Eventually we end up with Donald Trump.”

On the political landscape, fertile ground was prepared by campaign finance rules that allow huge sums to funnel into attack ads in the media, says fraud expert Pamela Meyer, author of Liespotting: Proven Techniques to Detect Deception.

“I don’t see it as a Trump-led phenomenon,” she says. “But now we’re seeing bottom. We’ve reached a potential pivot point where we’re saying ‘we’ve gone far enough here, allowing low, deceptive dirty tricks behaviour into our debate.’”

Trump is also enabled by followers whose own relationship with truth is shallow, Meyer adds. “There’s a large portion of them who don’t care. They’re not looking for an honest candidate, but an outsider who can speak to them because they feel unprotected. On some level they don’t care that he’s lying, because ironically, they think it’s authentic.”

While they may be tone deaf to Trump’s untruths, it’s his anger that strikes an authentic note.

“That’s his appeal,” says Rabin-Havt. “One effect is the division of the electorate. Liberals and conservatives no longer disagree on what to do about our country, but on the core facts of our ideology. They disagree about the natural world. People do have their own facts.”

Trump is also operating in a “click economy,” where celebrity, entertainment and politics merge, the Internet delivers a bewildering mass of data, and truth has a looser link with personal popularity.

The more exciting the liar, the more attention he gains and the bigger the audience ratings become. It’s a proposition that has sent a belated shiver of remorse through the media as Trump climbs closer to the White House.

Some critics wonder if Trump simply doesn’t understand the facts: an equally alarming prospect for a man who would be in charge of crucial international negotiations, global treaties, decisions on national security, launching wars and pressing the nuclear button.

Some of his ideas originate in the post-truth world manufactured by a cadre of professional spinners devoted to undermining the facts on public policy issues as sweeping as climate change, government debt, health care, gun control and abortion, says Rabin-Havt.

“It’s not that they created a world of lies,” he told the literary news site Signature. “They created a world where truth doesn’t exist. If half the population believes the sky is blue, and half the population believes the sky is orange, then what colour is the sky? To each half two different things are true, so you enter a world without truth.”

Has truth been Trumped for good?

“I don’t think we’ve hit a point of no return where the world is completely deceptive,” says Meyer.

“What we have is a lack of trust, and many institutions need more leadership in order to fix that. But I do think people really want to get to the truth. When we see an enormous amount of lying we have to say it publicly and privately. We must open up public and private debate. As individuals we can take back the truth.”

Little White House lies: Looking back on a half-century of truthiness

Donald Trump isn’t the first high-profile politician to be “economical with the truth.”

Here are some of the biggest presidential whoppers in modern history: a cautionary tale of what can happen when the White House is taken over by the less-than-truthful.

Lyndon Johnson

“We will seek no wider war.”

That far-fetched fib was uttered after the Gulf of Tonkin incident in August 1964, when U.S. destroyers were allegedly attacked by the North Vietnamese in the Gulf. Although it later emerged that American vessels had attacked the North Vietnamese, Johnson won approval for escalating the Vietnam War. Within a year 180,000 U.S. troops were on the ground.

Richard Nixon

“I am not a crook.”

Where to begin? Nixon was answering sticky questions from reporters in Orlando in 1973 when he was grilled on unpaid income tax, possible kickbacks and the Big One — Watergate. The answer didn’t go down with the media, but it went down in history. Nixon resigned nine months later to avoid impeachment.

Ronald Reagan

“We did not, I repeat, did not trade weapons or anything else (to Iran) for hostages, nor will we.”

The incredibly convoluted Iran-Contra affair heaped lie upon lie to cover up American involvement in trying to overthrow the Nicaraguan government and bring back hostages from Lebanon. It drew in Israel, the CIA and Nicaraguan Contra rebels in illegal dealings. Two administration officials were indicted, but Reagan escaped unscathed.

George H.W. Bush

“Read my lips: no new taxes!”

It was a rousing acceptance speech from the Republican Party’s 1988 candidate, playing to the party’s hardline anti-taxers, as well as disenchanted voters. But when the deficit escalated, growth shrank and Bush had to make a deal with Democrats in Congress to raise taxes, even his Gulf War popularity couldn’t win him the 1992 election.

Bill Clinton

“I did not have sexual relations with that woman, Miss Lewinsky.”

(He also didn’t inhale.) The 1998 scandal of sex in the Oval Office with 22-year-old intern Monica Lewinsky prompted an investigation, impeachment, a Senate trial and acquittal for Clinton on perjury charges. It also led to head-scratching attempts to define “sexual relations.” And endless fodder for satire.

George W. Bush

“Intelligence gathered by this and other governments leaves no doubt that the Iraq regime continues to possess and conceal some of the most lethal weapons ever devised.”

While fighting the Afghanistan war, Bush switched his focus to Iraq, claiming it was supporting terrorists and was a “growing danger” to the U.S. because of its weapons of mass destruction. The invasion was launched in 2003. No WMD were found. It didn’t end well.

 

Thoughts?

[PalJoey]

Posted: 5/24/16 at 9:02pm

Better to post the link than the whole article.

[sabrelady]

Posted: 5/24/16 at 9:43pm

Uh Huh. It was done as a convenience. 

Folks don't always click on the links but "discuss" anyway.

Don't worry tho. I'm Canadian enough not to venture into other peoples back yards.

Good luck Yankees.

You really need it. 

Updated On: 5/24/16 at 09:43 PM

[Borstalboy]

Posted: 5/25/16 at 1:49pm

Polls!  Polls!!  Everywhere polls!!!

 

http://www.salon.com/2016/05/25/wheres_ralph_nader_when_you_need_him_half_of_voters_would_consider_a_third_party_presidential_candidate/

[madbrian]

Posted: 5/26/16 at 9:14pm

Trump's campaign spokesperson Paul Manafort said that they would probably select a white male running mate, because choising a woman or minority would be pandering. Also, he said the VP would handle the parts of the presidency that Trump doesn't want to be bothered with. 

Updated On: 5/27/16 at 09:14 PM

[artscallion]

Posted: 5/26/16 at 9:34pm

madbrian said: "Trump's campaign spokesperson Paul Manafort said ...the VP would handle the parts of the presidency that Trump doesn't want to be bothered with. "

That's not how this works. That's not how any of this works!

 

[Liza's Headband]

Posted: 5/27/16 at 8:40am

madbrian said: "Trump's campaign spokesperson Paul Manafort said that they would probably select a white male running mate, because choising a woman or minority would be pandering. Also, he said the VP would gandle the parts of the presidency that Trump doesn't want to be bothered with. 

 

"

 

And Trump contradicted him at a press conference when he said they would "probably" choose a minority or woman for VP. More proof that he and his campaign staff have no clue what they're doing, and why you cannot believe a single thing that comes out of his mouth! 

[South Florida]

Posted: 5/27/16 at 5:59pm

I bet we are going to see a lot of the Libertarian candidate, don't remember his name, but if the threshold is 15% to get in the debates, hate of both has to exceed 15% easily, all this guy needs is some news coverage.  This thought is dangerous to me because head to head I can't see Hillary losing to Trump, there's no way America is that stupid, right?

 

[@z5]

Posted: 5/27/16 at 6:55pm

There's no way America is stupid enough to elect someone who the Inspector General said had broken the rules, and the FBI is investigating. That individual has consistently lied about it as well. I'd say that's a lot more stupid.

[madbrian]

Posted: 5/27/16 at 6:55pm

The Libertarian ticket will Gary Johnson/William Weld, both former GOP governors, of NM & MA respectively. They should hurt Trump more than Clinton. 

[South Florida]

Posted: 5/27/16 at 7:41pm

Polyannas you and PJ, the guy says he lines up to Sanders mostly but he's a loose cannon, this guy worries me, and I do not feel comfortable assuming he'll take from both sides equally.

 

Updated On: 5/27/16 at 07:41 PM

[South Florida]

Posted: 5/27/16 at 8:09pm

@z5 your hatred for Hillary is apparent.  You must realize your not going to change one persons mind? The thought that so many Americans think the POTUS dosen't matter is whack.  Donald Trump is a joke, and as this campaign wears on my worst nightmare is he'll have to withdraw, and anybody else beats Clinton.  Or the Libertarian, scary how dumb Americans are.

 

[phantom8019]

Posted: 5/28/16 at 3:05pm

I've been thinking of making a Broadway playlist to get me through life just in case Trump actually wins. The one song I keep thinking of in this situation is "Where You Are" from Kiss of the Spider Woman. 

"When you feel you've gone to hell in a hand basket/And the world in which you dwell's no paradise"

...and so on.

Any other songs fitting for my President Trump playlist? Maybe "Money" from Cabaret? 

I am a huge Clinton fan but I also have a funny image of her singing "Maybe This Time." This part matches pretty well with her current story:

Everybody loves a winner
So nobody loved me;
'Lady Peaceful,' 'Lady Happy,'
That's what I long to be
All the odds are in my favor
Something's bound to begin
It's got to happen, happen sometime
Maybe this time I'll win----

 

 

 

 

Updated On: 5/28/16 at 03:05 PM

[South Florida]

Posted: 5/28/16 at 3:17pm

Yes Phantom, you're on to something.

 

[South Florida]

Posted: 5/28/16 at 3:27pm

SNL karaoke skit.

 

[PalJoey]

Posted: 6/2/16 at 3:56pm

 

Now we're talkin'!

 

HUFF POST: Hillary Clinton Calls Donald Trump’s Foreign Policy ‘Dangerously Incoherent’: And she said he’s “temperamentally unfit” to serve as president.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/hillary-clinton-donald-trump_us_57508150e4b0eb20fa0d31f9?mj0ckv73soazcl3di

[Auggie27]

Posted: 6/2/16 at 4:01pm

Brilliant speech, as defined by experience-backed confidence as it was clarity, purpose and a working knowledge of the nuanced facts.

[Auggie27]

Posted: 6/2/16 at 4:01pm

(duplicate)

Updated On: 6/2/16 at 04:01 PM

[Jordan Catalano]

Posted: 6/2/16 at 4:21pm

Chris Matthews is correct, that that speech was a masterpiece. 

[StageManager2]

Posted: 6/2/16 at 7:49pm

Here's a link to that speech today:

http://www.c-span.org/video/?410484-1/hillary-clinton-lays-national-security-priorities

 

Just absolutely masterful!

 

Of course, almost on cue, Sanders has to undermine her, every which way. What is his endgame?

http://thehill.com/blogs/ballot-box/presidential-races/282059-sanders-jabs-at-clintons-foreign-policy-credentials

 

Bernie Sanders took a swipe at Hillary Clinton’s foreign policy credentials on Thursday in the wake of her speech attacking Donald Trump’s proposals. 

"I agree with Secretary Clinton that Donald Trump's foreign policy ideas are incredibly reckless and irresponsible,” Sanders said in a statement. “But when it comes to foreign policy, we cannot forget that Secretary Clinton voted for the war in Iraq, the worst foreign policy blunder in modern American history, and that she has been a proponent of regime change, as in Libya, without thinking through the consequences.” 
On Thursday, Clinton gave a speech that took Trump to task for his temperament and foreign policy proposals that she believes makes him unfit for the presidency. 

“Donald Trump’s ideas aren’t just different; they are dangerously incoherent,” she said. “They aren’t even really ideas, just a series of bizarre rants, personal feuds and outright lies.” 

Sanders has taken issue with Clinton’s own foreign policy, routinely blasting her for her early Iraq War support and her praise of Henry Kissinger, another former secretary of State. 

In his statement on Thursday, Sanders added, "We need a foreign policy based on building coalitions and making certain that the brave American men and women in our military do not get bogged down in perpetual warfare in the Middle East. That's what I will fight for as president."

[madbrian]

Posted: 6/2/16 at 10:42pm

Bernie gave a JV response to a varsity speech. 

[PalJoey]

Posted: 6/2/16 at 11:03pm

 

All he can say in response is "I'm NOT thin-skinned! I'm the OPPOSITE of thin-skinned!"

 

[HorseTears]

Posted: 6/3/16 at 5:28am

Finally had time to watch all of Hillary's speech.  Hands down the best moment she's had in this campaign.  I absolutely love the way in which she repeatedly used Trump's own insane rhetoric against him.  That was pretty damn devastating.  Gotta say, when the general election's in full swing it's going to be enjoyable to watch Hillary, Obama, Biden, Bill, Warren and (hopefully) Sanders replicate this strategy over and over and over.  Kill him with his own words.  

[madbrian]

Posted: 6/3/16 at 10:39am

By the way, the Clinton campaign provided notes to the media referencing each of Trump's comments to which she alluded. Shouldn't be needed, but the press has gotten so lazy that it was a terrific idea.