SUPER Controversial Thread!!! (Not for the faint of heart)- Page 8

[spiderdj82]

Posted: 9/27/04 at 1:21am

Wow, I jumped this bandwagon way late, but I will put my two cents worth in anyway. First let me state that I am a christian. Secondly, let me state that I do not believe what most christians believe in the way of some verses and whatnot. The old testament is great for historical value and some lessons to be learned, but as a whole we should not look to it for how we live our life as a christian. That is where the new testament comes in. A lot of the "gay bashing" that Christians do are from the old Testament where it says that being gay is an abomination.......but in that same verse it says that eating shell fish is an abomination, and I love me some shrimp. In the new testament, it says the sexually immoral will not enter the gates of heaven. But sexually immoral means adultereres, premarital sex and whatnot. Also in the Bible it says that every sin is the same in God's eyes except for the sin of not believing in Jesus and accepting him as your savior. Christians like to forget that one and clump sins into categories which is WRONG!!!!! I belive being gay is fine. I think you can be a christian and still be gay. I am a christian and I lie, I sin but I am still a christian. I just don't understand not believing in anything. I mean, being completely unclear of what happens when I die would scare the crap out of me. By faith I know I am going to heaven. There is no proof of it, but if there was proof, faith wouldn't exist. For example, I have faith that this chair will stay firm and will support my wieght. I have no proof that it will, I just believe that it will. At any second it could fall apart or whatnot but I believe by faith that it will hold my weight and keep me seated. If I didn't believe it would hold my weight, I sure as heck wouldn't be sitting in it right now.

Sorry for all this rambling, but I love conversations like this. I can actually say stuff without getting bashed (like when I do at my house).

[jrb_actor]

Posted: 9/27/04 at 1:48am

I just want to clarify that agnostic usually refers to someone who believes there is a supreme being, but doesn't adhere to any religion. Often times, an agnostic person views God in a holy spirit/mother earth sense.

I think I am agnostic. My upbringing is Christianity and I respect those traditions, but I could have just as easily been born into a Jewish home or a Muslim home. I refuse to connect to any religious view that says that one religion or text is right and the rest are bogus. It's just bollocks as none of us know which path(s) leads to God.

[Gothampc]

Posted: 9/27/04 at 8:05am

Does it matter which books got in and which books didn't? Not really, because it's the Holy Spirit that leads a person to truth. Any errors in the Bible can be corrected by the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit is the one who guides people to understanding.

Regarding faith, I always use the example of the wind. You can't physically see wind. But you know it's there because you can feel it and see its effects. Not everything has to be seen by sight to be real.

[ckeaton]

Posted: 9/27/04 at 10:58am

As the founder of this thread, I'd like to thank those who have posted views that they wouldn't normally share. I'd also like to thank the people that have held constructive conversations about these issues. Feel free to continue here, or spin off... but I have truly enjoyed reading every word.

To catch up:
- I have trouble believing in God. I'd like to believe, sometimes my belief is stronger than others. But I fear that I "logic" myself out of "true belief".

- I think human beings are all bisexual to varying degrees. Some act on it, some do not. We all have the potential for it.

- I think that ~ff~ is fricking hot.

[kissmycookie]

Posted: 9/27/04 at 11:45am

rentaholic:

Included with the discovery of the Isaiah scrolls from the Dead Sea, is also the Isaiah Peshar, which contain commentaries and interpretations of the Book of Isaiah.

Judaism has a greater history in studying scripture for various millenia.

Christianity has a lesser history of that. Word differences in the Nicean Creed led to the schism between the Catholic and the Eastern Orthodox Churches. The King James Bible is rather different from previous translations of the Bible.

[LadyGuenevere]

Posted: 9/27/04 at 3:17pm

"The thing is, I'd love to be more religious. I think that'd be so cool. But then I'm just like...."What if I dedicate my life to this religion, and I die and there's nothing? No god, no heaven?" "

If you tried all your life to be good, I think that it's reward enough, wouldn't you?

Nobody knows who or which god is 'real', but I believe in my God, yet I do keep an open mind that I can be wrong- we are just mortals, after all.

[Sunfish]

Posted: 9/27/04 at 3:38pm

I believe there is a Universal Power which the human mind cannot comprehend. I believe that all religions have a part of the truth, but not the whole truth. Most of the major ones, however, have a "love and respect for yourself and your fellow occupants on the earth" clause as a major tenet. All the little rules and regs. of the specific religions grew out of mens' attempts to interpret the divine will, which is unfathomable. But they all managed to hook onto that one, so it must one of the most important.

[newyorkuniq]

Posted: 9/27/04 at 3:43pm

I have a good friend who's Dad is Jewish and Mom is catholic. She tells me that she doesn't believe in Jesus and she celebrates Jewish holidays- but she also celebrates Easter and Christmas, which for me is hard to understand since those holidays to me are centered around celebrating the birth and rising of Jesus.

[jrb_actor]

Posted: 9/27/04 at 3:56pm

But those holidays have become so secular in this country unless you instill the religious aspects yourself.

[Rentaholic2]

Posted: 9/27/04 at 11:59pm

Ok, first of all, before I say this, I want everyone to know that I am not a homophobe, I do not hate gay people, and I do not avoid them (I have gay friends). And try to understand that these are my views on this subject and it is not meant to offend or attack anyone on this board.

Spider --

You are right in that there are many laws and statements in the Old Testament that no longer apply to us. The OT DOES say 'don't eat pork' or shellfish, etc. In that time, the Lord's people had little hope of grace without following these strict guidelines. But Jesus freed us from these laws! Galations 2:20-21 says, "I have been crucified with Christ and I no longer live, but Christ lives in me. The life I live in the body, I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave himself for me. I DO NOT SET ASIDE THE GRACE OF GOD, FOR IF RIGHTEOUSNESS COULD BE GAINED THROUGH THE LAW, CHRIST DIED FOR NOTHING!"

New Testament:

1 Corinthians 6:10 "Do not be deceived: Neither the sexually immoral nor idolaters nor adulterers nor male prostitutes nor homosexual offenders nor thieves nor the greedy nor drunkards nor slanderers nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God."

Romans 1:26-27 "Because of this, God gave them over to shameful lusts. Even their women exchanged natural relations for unnatural ones. In the same way the men also abandoned natural relations with women and were inflamed with lust for one another. Men committed indecent acts with other men, and received in themselves the due penalty for their perversion."

And finally, you said that all sins are the same in the eyes of God, which I agree with---but:

You say that you lie and sin, but you are still a Christian...so do you still acknowledge that these sins are WRONG? So what if someone was a cleptomaniac: they could still be a Christian, but what if they were convinced that what they were doing was not wrong? That doesn't sound right.

Having homoerotic feelings is one thing, but acting on them and convincing yourself that they are OK in God's eyes is not right...like you said, it is a sin like all others in God's eyes, but to be a gay Christian, one must have decided that it was NOT a sin. Many gay Christians that I know claim this same statement "all sins are the same in God's eyes", but they are simply using this statement as an excuse to justify their homosexuality....that very statement coming from a gay Christian is admitting that it IS a sin. So, to say that and then say that God is ok with it doesn't make sense in my eyes.

Posted: 9/28/04 at 12:01am

And people wonder why I have a problem with man-made religion.

[musicalmjk]

Posted: 9/28/04 at 12:13am

http://www.catholic.com/library/homosexuality.asp
there what the Catholic church says about homosexuality

[Rentaholic2]

Posted: 9/28/04 at 12:26am

well said.

[bythesword84]

Posted: 9/28/04 at 12:31am

Rentaholic- oh there was no offense taken, don't worry, I just wanted to step up for my side of Catholicism

Monkey- So if you believe in God and you die and there is no God, what does it matter? If nothing exists after death in the long run then really it's not going to matter that you believed in God. If there is nothing, then nothing can punish you for it.

[Rose_MacShane]

Posted: 9/28/04 at 12:36am

"Nobody knows who or which god is 'real', but I believe in my God, yet I do keep an open mind that I can be wrong- we are just mortals, after all."

And I wholeheartedly agree with you. Just because I don't subscribe to a particular religion doesn't mean that I think the people who do are "wrong." After all, what makes me the ultimate authority on religion? Nuthin', that's what. Bravo, LadyG!!

[StickToPriest]

Posted: 9/28/04 at 12:40am

"1 Corinthians 6:10 "Do not be deceived: Neither the sexually immoral nor idolaters nor adulterers nor male prostitutes nor homosexual offenders nor thieves nor the greedy nor drunkards nor slanderers nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God.""


The same verse, verbatum from the King James Bible:

"Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of god? Be not decieved: neither fornicators, nor idolators, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind, nor theives, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revivlers, nor extortioners shall inherit the kingdom of God"

So, I wonder, who through the years changed "nor effeminate" to mean "nor homosexual offendors"? They are not in any way shape or form the same thing.

Updated On: 9/28/04 at 12:40 AM

[musicalmjk]

Posted: 9/28/04 at 12:50am

http://www.postfun.com/pfp/homosexual.html
The Bible and homosexual.
I personally dont see Homosexuality as a grevious sin that cannot be partaken. Have any of you heard about the secret gospel of mark?

[spiderdj82]

Posted: 9/28/04 at 12:51am

Alright RENTaholic, I understand where you are coming from....BUT....according to the bible if you lust over a woman/man then you have committed adultery in your heart. If that is true then having homosexual feelings for someone else means that you have committed the act of homosexuality in your heart (which according to the bible is the same as acting them out). Also, I know lying is wrong but I do it everyday and so do you. Little white lies or small untruths is still a LIE which is a SIN. Everyday people sin even though they no it is wrong but they still do it.......yet, people are still Christians. And christians say that homosexuality is a sin against God and goes against the sanctity of marriage. Well, Christians get divorced, have affairs, etc. all the time.....so what makes them any different if we are going with that statement. The sanctity of marriage has left the building many, many years ago. Also, as a quote from BARE says "God don't make trash." If a male has feelings for another male, who am I to say those feelings are wrong and not real? I believe they are just as real as my feeling towards my finace. Love is the greatest of all God's creation and if men were not meant to love men, or women not meant to love women, then there would be no reason for it to happen, which means it wouldn't exist. But, it does exist so I believe that love is love no matter what sex the love is towards. Does that make sense?

[Rose_MacShane]

Posted: 9/28/04 at 12:51am

"Have any of you heard about the secret gospel of mark?"

No. Do tell!

Updated On: 9/28/04 at 12:51 AM

[musicalmjk]

Posted: 9/28/04 at 1:18am

well it really isnt a whole new gospel, its just a longer version of Mark, in which he raises a man in bethany and the man looked at jesus and loved Jesus/ begged to be with Jesus. and he spent the night with Jesus because he was taught of God's domain.
Which has brought some people to ask was Jesus a homosexual?
so i leave you tonight with that question.

Was Jesus a homosexual?

[spiderdj82]

Posted: 9/28/04 at 1:20am

"spent the night" and "have sex" are two completely different things.

[Rentaholic2]

Posted: 9/28/04 at 1:20am

Spider,

Yes lusting in one's mind is also sin, and yes, you and I both lie everyday even though we know it is wrong, but BECAUSE I know it is wrong and against God's will, I strive not to do it and when I do realize that I have done one of these things, I recognize it, ask for forgivness, and pray that I will not succomb to the same follies. I have heard too many gay people tell me that God made me this way yadda yadda...well, honestly, I can't say whether He made you that way or not, but if God did give you those inclinations, he also provides you with relief and the opportunity to change.

1 Corinthians 10:13 "No temptation has seized you except what is common to man. And God is faithful: he will not let you be tempted beyond what you can bear. But when you are tempted, he will also provide a way out so that you can stand up under it."

Being tempted is not a sin...Jesus was tempted. Really though, any time I get in to a gay/Christian argument, the other party is defending their lifestyle as being OK in God's eyes...if they could admit that it is a sin, they have taken a step in resisting the temptation. The problem is that, in most cases, they want it to be ok, which is understandable in view of all sins. I don't rebuke those who have homosexual feelings that seek help, guidance, and remain vigilant in resisting the temtation (1 Cor. 10:13). There are those, however, who succomb to the temptation and want it to be ok, and then justify all this by claiming that God is ok with it.

I will not say that affairs, etc. are not in the same scenario as the subject matter. Yes, people do them all the time....still, most Christians you ask will not say that their actions were ok. So why do so many Christians say these thing are not ok but homosexuality is? If anything, this further supports my point. You're right---adulterers and all that AREN'T any different---it's just the fact that, for some reason, more people look down about that but approve homosexuality.

What are you talking about, the sanctity of marriage has left the building? My parents are still lovingly married, as are many others. Just because people divorce, marry within same sex, and have affairs doesn't mean the sanctity of marriage is gone....it means it is gone IN THOSE SITUATIONS. My parents marriage is certainly still a sanctified marriage.

Love wouldn't exist between man and man if it was wrong? really? You obviously believe that lying is wrong...but it exist non the less. We are not MEANT to kill each other, but it happens everyday.

God never said life would be easy. I personally believe (can't find the verse right now) that God puts obstacles in our lives, things to overcome--He wants us to learn that anything can be overcome if you turn to Him. For many people, their biggest 'obstacle' is alcoholism--for others, it is lying, or a bad home life, death of loved one, loss, or persecution, even. IMO, homosexual feelings is an obstacle to overcome, a temptation to resist. In order to do so, one must first, not act upon it, second, turn to the Lord in prayer of help, deliverance, and perseverance. Here's the kicker....those feelings may or may not leave. I know of people that HAVE CHANGED. For some though, that obstacle will be there for their entire life...but when they stand in the presence of the Lord Almighty, He will say "Well done."

'night

[StickToPriest]

Posted: 9/28/04 at 1:24am

But Rentaholic, WHERE in the Bible does it SPECIFICALLY state that homosexuality is a sin?

Excluding the mistranslated, and therefore false, verse from First Corinthians.

[spiderdj82]

Posted: 9/28/04 at 1:36am

Ok, I didn't mean the sanctity of marriage doesn't exist I am saying that christians say that gay marriage will ruin the sanctity of marriage, but we have already ruined it (as a whole). I mean, people get divorced and such which goes against the sanctity of marriage too. My parents are happily married too. Also, if a gay couple gets married, how is that going against the sanctity of marriage exactly? I mean, if two men get married it won't make me want to divorce my wife or anything. I just do not see where they are coming from. And you are sooooooooo twisting my words around. What I am saying is LOVE is the greatest of god's creation. SIN is the creation of the devil. If love is a gift from God, who am I to say that a love between two men is wrong? If I lie it is WRONG, a SIN which is from the devil. Two completely different things. I just hate how some Christians pick and chose verses from the bible for their cause yet they forget that they too are sinners and have problems but they are ok just because they are Christians. It is not that easy. I am Christian and I know I am not perfect. I know that I have faults. Everyone does. And my opinion about Change, is that it is not as easy as you try to make it sound. If I was gay or a pedifle or whatever, me becoming a Christian and saying "that's wrong" wouldn't make me not have those feelings anymore. Trust me, people try to change but can't. You can't just stop being something you are. That is like me saying, I refuse to be straight because a woman hurt me. I can try to love a man, but it won't succeed because I am not gay. It is an act if I say that I can turn gay because I am not. Understand?

Updated On: 9/28/04 at 01:36 AM

Posted: 9/28/04 at 1:48am

The Gospel acoording to Douglas:

There once was a little boy, born to a woman and a man. That little boy was named Matthew, and grew up with all his boy and girl friends like everyone else. Matthew could see that the world was a beautiful place, and that he was happy in it. He couldn't understand all that he could see in the universe, but he wasn't afraid, for if it all existed, and he was a part of it, then it all would reveal itself to him when he was ready. He didn't hurt anything, and nothing hurt him.

One day, Matthew developed his sexual feelings, about the same time that the other boys and girls did. But Matthew found that he was attracted to other boys. That was OK, because there were other boys who felt the same way. And since 95% of the rest of the people were able to make babies, there was no danger of Matthew contributing to the downfall of the species.

So Matthew went about his life, having fun, enjoying the beauty of the world and finding love with other boys. And it was all good, because he wasn't hurting anyone, and the world was still a beautiful place.

Then one day, Matthew met some people who were different. They didn't think that the beauty of the world was enough, because they were afraid about what was going to happen when they died. They had come up with a story that made them feel better about themselves, and took away their fear of death. But their story didn't have a place for Matthew.

So they beat him until he was unconscious and left him tied to a fence so he would die. That way, they could feel that their story was real, and they still wouldn't have to feel afraid that they were going to die.
______________________________________________________________

I know this sounds harsh, and maybe doesn't have anything to do with how you think you feel. But I really wonder if you for even ONE FU*KING SECOND stop to think what your little 'interpretation of reality' has to do with the other SIX BILLION PEOPLE walking around on this rock!

Your condescending attitude and tone concerning what YOU are convinced reality is really doesn't have anything to do with what other people may think. I was driven to attempted suicide by a constant stream of this Christian mythological yammering - and the way it has been used as a foundation for reality by our supposedly 'free' society.

The one thing we have is our minds, and that gift has allowed us to discover many things about ourselves and the universe that we are a beautiful part of. And what is the Christian response to this awareness? Denial and persecution for that which doesn't fit it's narrow parameters of existence. And if you want to argue that point, let's go back just as far as Gallileo and work forward from there.

I have news for you: Those rules and parameters that you are holding so near and dear to your heart were fabricated by men at a time in history when physical domination was the paramount motivator. Everything that has been passed down to you as 'divine law' was designed by a group of men to better fascilitate their domination over other groups of men.

But you know what? In today's 'information age', that charade doesn't fly, and is seen for the absolute bullsh*t that it is. I have no time nor use for people who want to continue to shove stories down my throat concocted by greedy politicians (and make no mistake, that's who these people were that created this nonsense - greedy politicians who wanted power over the 'huddled masses')

If you want to gather together somewhere and continue this fabrication, be my guest. But under NO CIRCUMSTANCES do I find it allowable and acceptable that you step outside your circle and interfer with the rest of us who are just living our lives. When you can continue to have your little religious fantasies without negatively impacting the experience of the rest of the planet, then come on out and play (and that means ALL of you who have concocted religious fables). Otherwise, I - and MANY OTHERS - would prefer it if you stayed in your stone palaces and tried to escape your fears on your own.