Serious Discussion-Stress and Psych Disorders — Page 7

I've very much come to the conclusion that this debate stems on a value comparison.

Which is more important:

autonomy or the sanctity of human life?

Each side co-opts the other (i.e. without autonomy, it isn't life, or without life, there is no autonomy), and the debate become muddled every time. I guess I may find myself closer to a mediated centrist view -- that employs a situational ethic, and can't absract the issue apart from particular examples (although I would tend to almost always say that life is sacred especially in suffering).

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Quick response to touchme, then I'm really going.

I think more importantly than the autonomy/sanctity argument is justice in healthcare (which, of course, you may disagree with me on). Consider two men, both in the same medical condition, with the exception of the first man also being on a ventilator. Now this man (through power of attorney to a family member) may choose to end his life, while the other cannot. They may be in the same measure of pain, but only one is able to end their suffering.

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Touchme - my thoughts exactly and beautifully stated.

My husband and I have Living Wills and our directives are very different. Each of us has an on-going medical condition that may eventually play a role in our individual end of life scenarios, so it was (is) an important issue to face for our family's sake. This is something you do, not only for yourself, but for your loved ones' sake.

and also, when do you feel as if you have to give up hope?

I meant that the purpose of health care is to make someone better. I didn't mean to imply restoring someone to the prime of their youth.
But, take my grandmother. When she entered the hospital, the doctors were pretty much in agreement that all they could do was make her comfortable and as pain-free as possible. But they could do nothing real and tangible to reverse this process.
Why, in our society, is a lifetime of medication/machinery seen as the more righteous moral stance to take than to give someone their exit without pain and with dignity? now, before someone infers something, I don't mean we shouldn't have asthma puffers or amputations to save lives. I'm discussing a lifetime being hooked up to a respirator, being fed through a tube, being unable to move on your own, etc.

"(although I would tend to almost always say that life is sacred especially in suffering)"

So you *want* people to suffer and live their days in agony, because that's particularly sacred? Where is the sense in that?

I don't believe that a person who has no chance of ever returning to a "normal" life should ever be kept alive any longer than necessary, however, without a living will, it will inevitably become a big freaking mess, so I think really, the only answer to this debate is to think about it NOW, when one is able and healthy, so that it isn't a problem later. Are you willing to be suspended in a vegetative state, or kept alive in agony, just to make the people around you happy that you're still there; or do you want your suffering to be ended and move on to whatever it is that there is after we shuffle off this mortal coil?

Don't we think it's just a *little* selfish to keep someone alive just so we don't have to miss them when they're dead? I mean, if you're laying unconscious in a hospital bed for years, you're not exactly going to the movies with me, having dinner with me, and engaging in those long, wonderful talks we used to have anyway, now are you? So, really, you're ALREADY gone, and if there really is no hope of a recovery, I mean, just get it over with already!

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My grandmother suffered for over 30 years with ALS, finally in '96 she decided she didn't want to live anymore and my mom had to fight for her mother's right to die. This caused a lot of tension in my mother's family and now her brother doesn't speak to her anymore, but in my eyes and my mother's eyes my mom was only fulfilling her mother's wishes. I support euthanasia completely. It's unfair to make people suffer through a disease or through a vegetable state just so those who are close to them will not have to miss them. I can see where people who do not support it come from, but overall, imagine how the person in question must be living.

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Elphaba: I think the insurance companies are more to blame than the doctors themselves...

Elphaba - while that's certainly true for some, I would beg to disagree. While it may be true that there are corrupt CEOs and greedy businessmen and women climbing the healthcare ladder simply for prestige and profit, there is also a quiet majority who came into healthcare out of a genuine desire to help people, to do research for the good of humanity and to be able to make a meaningful difference in their corner of the world. Every system has corrpution, unfortunately - governments, school systems, law enforcement branches, healthcare fields - but unfortunately it's really that the most corrupt folks are the ones making all the noise, while the hardworking and honest folks go about their business unnoticed.

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Oy! What a way to begin the week. I'll try to make sense here, but sometimes I ramble and quite get the point across.

Assisted Suicide is a very personal choice, and very different, in my eyes, from stopping a respirator/feeding tube. I think most people have less of a problem with 'pulling the plug' than with assisted suicide.

For me, 'pulling the plug' is truly letting nature take its course. At that point, when there is no hope for the individual to regain any semblance of a normal/conscious life, or for their body to be able to support itself again, all we're doing is taking science out of the equation and see what happens. Some people have lived longer than expected once the equipment is turned off. I have been very clear that I do not want to be kept alive by artificial means, and if I'm ever in the hospital and terminal, I do not want heroic measures taken to keep me alive.

Assisted suicide is a horse of a different color. Again, in my eyes. And one I struggle with. In my set of beliefs (which is not one particular religion but a mish-mash of many), taking someone's life, your own included, has the most negative karmic (sp) weight. It might sound simplistic, but the point of life is to experience it all, the good and the bad. That's how our spirit (soul) grows and learns. I don't think I personally would resort to such a thing. But, that's just ME and MY beliefs. And I really like the way the law in Oregon is written, which requires patients who are considering doctor assisted suicide to go to counseling first. As bway said (I think it was bway) it could just be depression that can be overcome.

All this said, I have no idea how I would react if I was in pain 24/7, and the quality of my life was miserable. And I would like to have the option to change my mind about it.

I know it's a fine line, but I would see as quitting treatment to keep me alive different from taking medication to end my life.

I hope my rambling makes some sense. If it does, please explain it to me.

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Wow, Iflit. There are no words to say to what you just shared with us...except what a journey and a challenge you and your mother were given.
And I can only say, if euthanasia/assisted suicide/whatever you prefer to call this life-ending decision was the best way for you to both come to terms with her mortality with a measure of dignity and grace, then you did the right thing. There is no blood on your hands.

I'm grateful everyday for having handled things the way I did. I feel like it's one thing in my life I truly did the right way with no regrets.

I am sharing my story more for the benefit of those who may find themselves in a similar situation someday. Just having a familiarity of the conficting forces, who may all mean well, that can create a whirlwind of chaos may help someone, someday, to step back during a difficult time and examine what is really going on.

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It must be hard for members of the medical profession to switch gears, so to speak, and not intervene when their training has been to save lives without "seeing the big picture". Each is a trained technician, mindful of what they CAN do rather than if they should do it.