Serious Discussion-Stress and Psych Disorders- Page 6

[iflitifloat]

Posted: 1/23/06 at 10:20am

Actually, PalJoey... quite the opposite, I was hoping to avoid referring to that unfortunate episode of BWW history, and I am disappointed that you brought it into this thread. There were a lot of extremely emotional dynamics going on that day, and from where I stood, more than one person acted inappropriately.

Now, can we PLEASE get back to a discussion of the issue rather than turning yet another thread into a venue for personal warfare that is unlikely to ever be resolved...

[Jane2]

Posted: 1/23/06 at 10:25am

I also believe it's a personal decision, although I've debated this issue many times and I found that more people take the attitude of "how dare that person take their own life when so many people love him/her and will miss her". They also term that person as selfish in taking their life.

Selfish? I don't agree. While some call it cowardly to take your own life, I call it brave. A member of my immediate family tried several times to commit suicide (and is still living). I could understand her anguish, being severely mentally ill and never having a happy moment. Admittedly, I'm happy she was unsuccessful in her attempts. Things have improved over the years.

Here's where I make a differentiation. Those who are suffering from physical ailments in which they are in such pain or handicap that it makes living a hell on earth, I'm totally understanding in their decision. However, in the case of mental illness, severe depression, etc. I advocate trying everything to alleviate the mental anguish before making the decision to end it all. After that, if living is just too unbearable, then I think it's a personal decision to be respected instead of criticized for being selfish to others.

[sweetestsiren]

Posted: 1/23/06 at 10:28am

I'm defintiely in favor of euthanasia being an option if it's clear that those were the wishes of the patient in question. If I remember correctly, there's a difference between active and passive euthanasia--passive involving non-treatment or removing life-saving equipment, and active involving actually speeding along death by administering drugs (which is more along the lines of assisted suicide). Quite honestly, I think that if a person really wants to die because his case is hopeless in the medical sense, he should be allowed to make that decision. I do completely see, though, why the medical community shies away from active euthanasia simply because they are in the market of saving people's lives and not ending them, and the situations get so complex that it would be so difficult to have a consistent moral stance on this issue.

The larger problem arises when the person is unavailable to give consent or there's a dispute over what they would've wanted. In these cases, although there are bound to be differing opinions, the next-of-kin or spouse should be able to make the final call. But in practice it gets a lot hairier than that: even if someone has said that they'd prefer death to living a less-than-full life, there's no real way of knowing what they would want when that moment actually came. Plus, there's no set-in-stone definition of "medically hopeless," and, as seen in the Terry Shiavo case, different doctors will give different opinions and prognoses.

Edit: Also, I'm not in favor of assisted suicide when it isn't motivated by a terminal medical condition, which isn't euthanasia. If a person in that situation really wants to die that badly, let that be on their own hands and not someone else's. Updated On: 1/23/06 at 10:28 AM

[PalJoey]

Posted: 1/23/06 at 10:37am

Nevertheless, iflit, this is the precise topic that spawned that ugly comment on papa's part and it brings back the memory of his despicable behavior. I think both DG and bway knew when they made this today's topic that papalovesmambo considered it appropriate to defile my mother's death.

As I have said time and time again, this could be resolved very easily, with a public and sincere apology.

Updated On: 1/23/06 at 10:37 AM

[Elphaba]

Posted: 1/23/06 at 10:41am

paljoey, I can truly understand your pain. But.....let it go. Be the bigger man......because Papa won't be. And by continuing with this you give him power and control, and the only one hurt is you. Take the power back, and let it go.

[PalJoey]

Posted: 1/23/06 at 10:42am

Tell that to papa.

[cabarethed]

Posted: 1/23/06 at 10:47am

This is a topic I feel very strongly about, but I really shouldn't participate because it hits way too close to home for me. As much as I try to respect others opinions, I don't know if I can see potentially harsh words again like during the time of Schiavo. All I can really say is, MAKE. A. LIVING. WILL. I had to assist my mother in one of the hardest decisions of our lives regarding my stepfather two years ago, and knowing that I'm going to have to make that decision for her in a few years (they both had/have MS) kinda kills me inside. I barely just hit my mid-20s, and I already have to deal with this s***.

[sweetestsiren]

Posted: 1/23/06 at 10:52am

I agree: living wills are for sure the way to go. And also that this topic is going to hit home for a lot of people (myself included), so there should be a lot of sensitivity exercised in this debate. There's very little in life that's more difficult than being a family member and having to make one of these types of decisions.

[DG]

Posted: 1/23/06 at 11:02am

I am reasonably certain that one way to keep this discussion 'above board' is to not ascribe feelings, thoughts or actions to anyone but yourself.

[amasis]

Posted: 1/23/06 at 11:03am

The thing is, when we're discussing something like this you also have to take into account a person's faith as well as their concepts of what death is. For many people, it is a final thing; you go to heaven/hell, you turn to dust, etc. For Buddhists, and many followers of the ancient Indian traditions which accept the karma and re-birth theory, it is an opportunity to use your most subtle level of consciousness, transforming death, in a way, into a path of wisdom, which will then guarantee you a better life in the next round. Some people are taught that taking your own life under any circumstances would immediately guarantee you a place in Hell (except for when you're fighting for the sake of your religion, in which case *surprise!* it's okay -- but that's a whole different thread entirely) - and I can see why the family may not want to consider it. In the teaching of the latter (karma/re-birth believers), peace of mind at the time of death is the most important thing, and the job of the living is to ensure that this is the case, as much as it is possible. You're there to provide comfort, to be a solid presence, and to give them as much happiness and peace of mind as possible. Those things, they say, are the greatest gifts you can give. (This is my understanding based on my studies, but I should say that I'm not Buddhist. Nor am I a subscriber to any other religion, now.) That teaching doesn't automatically extend to meaning that it allows assisted suicide, of course. But what I take away from it is that: the focus should not be on what the family want, but on the well-being of the person who is suffering most.

Of course, if someone turns to you and say, "I've had enough," you have the responsibility, I think, to help them see whether there's another way. Ten years ago, a friend of mine - a doctor - told me a story about two of his patients who basically said those words. I don't remember the specifics (and if I do I shouldn't write them in anyway), but in this case, it meant taking away treatments, which he did. But with one of them, the thing was: the treatment was causing a lot of the pain, which led to the depression the patient was experiencing, which made him feel like he didn't want to go on, etc., and after all that was removed and the depression lifted, the patient's will to live returned. So I think you have to know how to reach the suffering person and see why he/she really feels that this is their only choice. But the choice should be there, and if they've made the choice with a clear mind, then it needs to be honored.

Well, those are my thoughts. G'night, everyone.
Updated On: 1/23/06 at 11:03 AM

[kissmycookie]

Posted: 1/23/06 at 11:07am

Living wills, as have been mentioned are the best, if slightly morbid, manner to have as much control over how one choose to depart, if that is indeed what one chooses. At the same time, such control means micromanaging and looking at all the possible scenarios under what conditions should be met before life support is disconnected.

[sweetestsiren]

Posted: 1/23/06 at 11:12am

I had a professor of a bioethics course who, on the first day of class, passed out living will forms to everyone im the class.

[SonofMammaMiaSam]

Posted: 1/23/06 at 11:12am

I have a living will. My power of attorney is not held by a family member but rather by a friend who knows what my specific wishes are. I have had ongoing and indepth conversations with my family and other involved parties as to those wishes and why I have made those decisions. They are based on my beliefs and values not theirs. I have been specific and clear. I believe that open dialogue needs to happen frequently even if the subject is sensitive and potentially emotional.

[brdlwyr]

Posted: 1/23/06 at 11:18am

C - I advocate the use of Power of Attorney in addition to a Living Will. Generally, a Living Will is a statement of intention. A Power of Attorney allows an individual to appoint a representative to make decisions on their behalf in the event of mental or physical incapacity.

Everyone should check with their state laws to see if there are Health Care Attorney Statues. Illinois actually has a statutory form that is easily recognized by health care providers.

Illinois Legal Aid

[kissmycookie]

Posted: 1/23/06 at 11:21am

Coming from an arttorney, those are wise words, B...

[beacon1]

Posted: 1/23/06 at 11:23am

Thanks for that info Brdlwyr...

I have not made my wishes known in writing but I have discussed it with all my family members.

Same goes for organ donation. Rip it all out. I won't need anything back until the resurrection and surely God can find all the bits which were me and put them back together. That's why He is who He is. Corneos, kidneys, liver, lungs,...take it all.

[brdlwyr]

Posted: 1/23/06 at 11:24am

C - do you live in NY or NJ?

[Elphaba]

Posted: 1/23/06 at 11:25am

my partner has power of attorney and knows my wishes. I also have a living will.
So many people are afraid to deal with these issues until too late, or forced to......

With two parents right at 80, my Mom will be 80 this year, my dad was 82 this month, I am keenly aware of what I may be called on to do. And while just the thought makes me want to start sobbing, I will honor their wishes.

[kissmycookie]

Posted: 1/23/06 at 11:26am

NY

[brdlwyr]

Posted: 1/23/06 at 11:29am

Your AG has a great packet with forms.
NY Planning Health Care

[NYadgal]

Posted: 1/23/06 at 11:29am

I, too, have a Living Will. And my Power of Attorney is held by a friend with whom I have had very specific conversations about my feelings and wishes.

I have also had lengthy, detailed conversations about the topic with my family. I believe that it is the greatest gift you can give to your loved ones: to take the burden of having to make a decision on my behalf off of them.

It is not an easy conversation to have, but is vitally important.

As someone who has actively faced my mortality, I have very definite feelings about the place of assisted suicide in my own life. It is not an easy issue to process, and I have looked at it from many sides and have had conversations with many people, from medical professionals to members of suicide-support groups about it. I am comfortable with the decision I have made. For myself.

[CostumeMistress]

Posted: 1/23/06 at 11:30am

Brdlwyr - is there a similar form for Michigan, or where could I find out if there were one?

My parents absolutely refuse to talk about the topic of their death. This frustrates me to no end. I've asked if they had a living will sharing their wishes on their death, hinted at all the reasons to have one in place, and then just flat-out asked them to make one. At 41 and 43 with a teenager and a young child I think they just consider themselves too young to have to think about such things. It worries me, though - there are no custody wishes in place for my younger brother and sister, no documentation as to their wishes about life-saving measures... how does one approach such a subject with her parents? What is the right way to say, "Listen, like it or not, you're going to die, and as the oldest child, I have no idea what you want, WRITE IT DOWN ALREADY!"

[Jess1483]

Posted: 1/23/06 at 11:31am

I'm not sure who brought up the distinction between active and passive euthanasia, but I have to disagree that there truly is a distinction. The distinction between active and passive euthanasia is colloquially the same as between killing and letting die. It's based on the Doctrine of Double Effect, which essentially means that if something is (even a foreseen) effect of a different action that is at least morally neutral if not morally good, then even if it is bad, it can be acceptable. In this case, it's argued that aleviating suffering (the good intent) outweighs the bad effect (death) of the action.
So my argument is that I don't think "letting die" is devoid of morally questionable action. If one removes life support, they are still "pulling the plug" or "stopping treatment." These are both actions as far as I'm concerned, and the aim of both is to speed death.
Moreover, I don't think you can say that the unintended effect (death) was not foreseen. A person who knowingly and voluntarily acts to bring about an effect brings about that effect intentionally. The effect is intended, even if the person did not desire it, will it, or intend it as the goal of the action.
That said, however, I think that the whole discussion of killing vs. letting die ignores a crucial issue because it presupposes that death is an unintended act. On the other hand, arguments in favor of euthanasia should acknowledge and embrace the fact that death is the intended and desirable consequence of an action.
All of this said, I'm in favor of euthanasia (with some stipulations). I just hate ambiguous distinctions like active vs. passive that cloud the issue rather than allow it to truly be debated.
Okay, so much more to say, but I've got class...

Updated On: 1/23/06 at 11:31 AM

[iflitifloat]

Posted: 1/23/06 at 11:34am

This is such a complicated topic. I am unwaiveringly in support of withdrawal of treatment in medical situations where life is being unduly prolonged by the miracles of modern medicine.

As some of you know, I struggled through this last fall with my mother. I was named as her health proxy and also had Power of Attorney. And as a nurse, I am more comfortable with end of life issues than are many people who have had less exposure to the process of dying.

I know in my heart and in my head that the decisions I made to withdraw treatment were made out of love, and were the very same decisions I would want someone to make for me. Even so, I have to admit that as secure as I am with my beliefs and motivations, while actually experiencing the process, there were times when I felt like I had blood on my hands.

In the end, it took far more strength to actively "pull the plug" (metaphorically speaking), than it would have taken to keep throwing medical miracles at each new problem, only to have the treatment create brand new problems and suffering.

My mom was a religious woman in a pretty conservative Christian denomination in a red state. Her minister, a man I thought might be inclined to find fault with my decisions, told me that he thought maybe her time had come and gone a couple weeks earlier, and that we were perhaps standing in the way of nature's (OK, so he said God...) intentions by going above and beyond.

I guess I've forgotten the point I was trying to make... but there's my own story which I have chosen to share. I'll get back to you all when I regain my focus.

[brdlwyr]

Posted: 1/23/06 at 11:35am

Costume - try this:

Michigan Information Updated On: 1/23/06 at 11:35 AM