Serious Discussion-Stress and Psych Disorders- Page 8

[DayDreamer]

Posted: 1/23/06 at 1:20pm

iflit... I hope my sister (power of attorney) can keep her composure and make such a level-headed decision, and not one tainted by emotions, if/when it comes to that.

And on the Power of Attorney note, my sister has my power of attorney, but my best friend has secondary power of attorney, in case she's not available.

[DramaDork925]

Posted: 1/23/06 at 1:20pm

"It would be very unusual for your Grandmother to have suffered with ALS for 30 years, though, as most sufferers (over 95%) die within 3 to 5 years. No one has been known to live more than 8 years. I've seen two good friends through this disease and it is a horrible way to die. I'm sorry for your loss. "

I just asked my mother, it was 28 years and she was the longest living ALS patient in the United States. Your right, it is a horrible disease. More reason to support the argument of Euthanasia.

[bwaysinger]

Posted: 1/23/06 at 1:21pm

oh, Blue! You said what I've not been able to articulate.
Just because it CAN be done, SHOULD it be done?

[iflitifloat]

Posted: 1/23/06 at 1:26pm

Bluemoon has nailed it, and it's worth repeating:

"It must be hard for members of the medical profession to switch gears, so to speak, and not intervene when their training has been to save lives without "seeing the big picture". Each is a trained technician, mindful of what they CAN do rather than if they should do it."

I've been on both sides of the fence, and this is exactly it.

[Bluemoon]

Posted: 1/23/06 at 1:37pm

bway & Iflit- This point came home to me when my husband had quadruple bypass surgery a nember of years ago. His surgeon was a wonderful man who saved his life (at 43) with his great surgical skills. However, the very next week, the same doctor was involved in a messy situation where he performed the same surgery on a 90 year old man who suffered from Alzheimers and numerous debilitating medical conditions. The man's family had not indicated in writing that he should not gbe resusitated so when the man had a heart attack in the hospital, the surgeon did what he was trained to do - he intervened surgically. The family - who really wanted to let the man slip way through nature's course - was furious and sued the hospital and the doctor (all other medical intervention from other specialists had been stopped).

Different patients, different situation, same procedures applied. The doctor could make no distiction. He did what he was trained to do.
Updated On: 1/23/06 at 01:37 PM

[DayDreamer]

Posted: 1/23/06 at 1:41pm

I truly believe that doctors, kwowing in advance what the patients wishes are, are able to keep a level head and see the big picture.

Yes, their instinct is to save people. BUT if that man's family had a clear DNR order, I'm certain the doctor would've been able to withhold (sp) treatment. I'm not saying that they would not be conflicted, but I certainly hope that a doctor is able to respect my DNR wishes.

[iflitifloat]

Posted: 1/23/06 at 1:52pm

I suspect there is another layer to Bluemoon's story, DD. I'd bet the bank that when the old man went into crisis, no one could locate his chart quickly enough to verify that there was a written DNR on the chart. And instinctively he did what I would have done. It's safer, when there is an unknown, to do something.

Lord knows, I'm not trying to make excuses. Healthcare is a flawed system, and staffing shortages in virtually every institution creat e unfortunate situations all the time where things don't run as smoothly as they should.

I just get defensive, I guess, when I hear about things like that because I can picture so clearly how bad things happen when every one, individually, tried his/her best.

[DayDreamer]

Posted: 1/23/06 at 1:56pm

Oh no, don't misunderstand. I totally understand the doctor. When in doubt, they always try to save someone. And I do believe that for some it must be quite difficult to let someone go when they believe something can still be done.

I know it's a tv show, but I think ER has, to some extent, shown how different doctors can/could possibly deal with these situations. Some are comfortable letting the patient go, and some will try any and everything to save the patient.

[Bluemoon]

Posted: 1/23/06 at 2:00pm

If I remember correctly (and on some days that is a big if) the man survived the heart attack on his own without resusitation and when the surgeon was called in and looked at the blocked arteries, he knew he could "fix" them.

Here comes the "fuzzy" part: the family claimed that the surgery prolonged the man's life while the surgeon said that the man was not dying of heart disease and he was obligated to fix what was broken.

I never followed the case to it's conclusion - I should google it and see what happened. Medical ethics can be a murky business.

[iflitifloat]

Posted: 1/23/06 at 2:07pm

But there's also the layer of actions that are taken in the midst of confusion, where decisions are made, not in the best interest of the patient, but to avoid lawsuits. Where it's safer to treat someone who ended up having a DNR which couldn't be produced in the middle of the crisis, than it was to stand by, do nothing, and be accused of murder.

We live in a litigious society. The blame for some, though certainly not all, of the problems in the application of healthcare has to rest on the shoulders of everyone who thinks that every negative outcome in healthcare should have a big consolation payout attached.

[DayDreamer]

Posted: 1/23/06 at 2:17pm

That is true... the joys of this litigious society.

That's why I find a law like Oregon's assisted suicide law necessary. It sets guidelines for it. And it might even save lives. I heard a story on talk radio about this man in our area who was very frustrated with his medical condition, and decided to take his own life. IF there had been an assisted suicide law here, he would've been required to go to counseling first, where he would've found out that there were ways for him to deal with his disease, and also treat the depression that was haunting him. And he would probably still be alive today, and his family would not have found him on his kitchen floor with a gunshot to his head.

[PalJoey]

Posted: 1/23/06 at 2:28pm

Thanks to iflit and bluemoon and cabarethed and everyone who shared in this thread. I was relieved to come back from lunch and not see anyone else's deceased loved ones violated.

The words "assisted suicide" and "euthenasia" are part of the problem. Phrases like that become heavy with the burden of meanings layered on top of them by people who disapprove. The words themselves end up sounding "bad." But you never feel that you are in the process of "euthenizing" or "assisting suicide." Those phrases have nothing to do with your reality.

The real situation is simultaneously much smaller and much larger: smaller in that it's not about other people; it just about someone you love who is no longer able to laugh or cry or sing or run or maybe eat or drink. You know that person's spirit is there, but the body is shutting down, a little more each day, each hour, each moment. Larger in that you know it is big; however you behave will be your last gift to someone you love.

My own mother made all her own decisions pertaining the treatment and cessation of treatment of her ovarian cancer, something papalovesmambo didn't even bother to ask before unconscionably accusing me of "killing" her. (As if anyone could!) My mother was inspired in her choices by the dignified actions of Audrey Hepburn and Jackie Onassis, whose recent deaths had occasioned much discussion in the media and among the cancer support groups.

She died in a peaceful atmosphere, receiving visits by her husband, her children, her friends, her Tuesday-night theatergoing group, even my dog, who curled up like a doughnut at the foot of her bed and kept watch. It was a death with peace and dignity I wish for all of us.

[DayDreamer]

Posted: 1/23/06 at 3:01pm

"a death with peace and dignity"

I think that's what it boils down to.

[iflitifloat]

Posted: 1/23/06 at 3:17pm

Okay. Just to lighten things up a notch, I have one more part of the story to tell...and one my mom would have oddly enjoyed knowing is still being told.

A handful of days before she died under hospice care in a room that we had decorated with colored lights, plants, pictures, wall hangings, tie-dyed pillowcase, and music, my mom (having received a generous amount of morphine to make sure she wasn't in any discomfort) made a noise somewhere between a tsk-tsk and a chuckle. I asked her what was wrong and she replied that every time she closed her eyes she kept seeing "that Morrison man" and then went on to add that she "had never cared for him much". When I asked her what Morrison man, she answered, "You know...JIM Morrison. I never cared for his music!"

She was aware that it was the medicine "making her loopy" (her words), but we shared more than a couple of laughs about her Jim Morrison hallucinations during the next few days. And laughter is such a blessing when the person who is dying can find a reason to laugh.

Jim Morrison, indeed.

[bwaysinger]

Posted: 1/23/06 at 3:19pm

Dear lord. You are a blessing, Iflit.
I know it's a threadjack to just come in and say that here, but you are.

[DayDreamer]

Posted: 1/23/06 at 3:20pm

LOL, that's wonderful. Maybe you were channeling his presence.

[Bluemoon]

Posted: 1/23/06 at 3:26pm

Hee-hee.

Maybe Jim Morrison is now a spiritual guide - you know, like an angel. I hope George Clooney comes to get me when it's my time to go.

[DayDreamer]

Posted: 1/23/06 at 3:26pm

Moony... he's still alive.

[Bluemoon]

Posted: 1/23/06 at 3:28pm

He's a male, so I'm counting on him to go first.

[DayDreamer]

Posted: 1/23/06 at 3:29pm

LOL

[kissmycookie]

Posted: 1/23/06 at 3:40pm

[iflitifloat]

Posted: 1/23/06 at 3:43pm

Exactly, Cookie!

[kissmycookie]

Posted: 1/23/06 at 3:47pm

Come on come on come on come on now touch me babe
Cant you see that I am not afraid
what was that promise that you made?
Why wont you tell me what she said?
What was that promise that you made?

Now i'm gonna love you until the heavens start the rain
I'm gonna love you until the stars fall from the sky
For you and I

[NYadgal]

Posted: 1/23/06 at 4:31pm

iflit, that is, and will forever remain, one of my favorite stories.

...not merely because I think Jim Morrison was one of the hottest men ever and that song makes me melt...

Updated On: 1/23/06 at 04:31 PM

[CostumeMistress]

Posted: 1/23/06 at 7:54pm

A touching story, iflit... sometimes we are blessed when loved ones have moments of coherence, or just humor, in times of pain. Such was the case with my Grandma B - she suffered for about three years from advanced stages of Alzheimer's. My grandpa, once a rough-hewn steel mill worker, dropped everything to care for her. One night she woke up suddenly, shaking my grandfather's arm, saying something was wrong, she wasn't feeling well. He got up, piled them both into the car, and started driving to the hospital. On the way, she turned to him and stated that she wanted to go home. He reassured her that after the doctors looked at her, they would go back to the house. She looked at him with perfect coherence and simply stated, "No, I want to go home."

As it turned out, she had suffered a brain aneurysm. She was hooked up to breathing apparatus until all the family could make it into town (about 36 hours) and then was taken off, once everyone had the chance to say goodbye. She died, being ready and willing to do so, surrounded by loved ones. A true death with dignity.

Updated On: 1/23/06 at 07:54 PM