Harvey Fierstein: "Lola is straight!" Billy Porter: "Um, Lola is gay!"- Page 2

[RippedMan]

Posted: 4/30/13 at 1:38am

The character is gay. Just flat out gay. I don't think those lines have anything to do with Lola's sexuality. I think he's just trying to relate to the straight male and prove his point. He's saying don't judge a book by it's cover and just assume he's gay because a lot of straight guys like to cross dress too.

If the character were "straight" he wouldn't talk in that faux-drag queen-accent thing he does when he's just wearing the suit. Plus if he was suppose to be straight, I would think it would be a more obvious choice because I think that would make the story way more interesting.

[Theater'sBestFriend]

Posted: 4/30/13 at 8:00am

Some trans folks are gay (ie., attracted to the same sex they identify with) and some are straight (ie., attracted to the opposite sex). For example, many trans men start out as hetero men (ie., attracted to women), and remain attracted to women, so become lesbians when they transition. But some are attracted to men. And some trans folks are are "genderqueer" -- they refuse to be categorized as one sex or the other. It's not always so black-and-white.

[Wishing Only Wounds]

Posted: 5/17/13 at 11:26am

I remember reading this thread and being so intrigued. After seeing the show last night, put me on Harvey's side. Besides the fact that it is (POTENTIAL SPOILER) heavily alluded to that Lola likes women (END OF SPOILER), I think a straight Lola touches on an issue that no one/thing has really touched on yet...

Gender and sex are two very different things. An overly feminine male is not automatically gay, and vice versa. In today's society, people base sex on gender, when gender does not reflect sex. I took Lola as being straight when I saw the show and I was extremely moved by it.

[Jordan Catalano]

Posted: 5/17/13 at 11:35am

I asked Billy about this a few weeks ago. He said "What do you think?" I said I thought its not even a question that Lola is gay. He said "THANK YOU". He then pointed to the theater "Now "some" of those people in there might think different but MY Lola is gay".

[henrikegerman]

Posted: 5/17/13 at 11:38am

It won't be the first time an author and actor have disagreed about a character and it won't be the last. And that's as it should be.

[Mister Matt]

Posted: 5/17/13 at 12:29pm

Besides the fact that it is (POTENTIAL SPOILER) heavily alluded to that Lola likes women (END OF SPOILER)

Is that something new in the Broadway script because in the Chicago run, Lola never alluded to a heterosexual preference.

I think a straight Lola touches on an issue that no one/thing has really touched on yet...

Including the musical itself. If there is some point to it, there is nothing in the show that indicates it, really. It's not anything the audience will take away from the show as a message. There's no real discussion in the show and I think the avoidance of the subject was the point to be made (that somehow we should ignore the sexual preference of drag queens and see the "person inside" or whatever) but it's not really clear. Lola is a man in drag and may or may not be gay and shame on us for trying to guess because it shouldn't matter. Or something. I have no idea. The show may "touch" on an issue, but it never digs deep.

Updated On: 5/17/13 at 12:29 PM

[Theater'sBestFriend]

Posted: 5/17/13 at 2:21pm

"Shame on us for trying to guess because it shouldn't matter."

I don't think you or anyone should be ashamed for trying to guess. Thinking is a good thing. Theater often makes you do that through ambiguity that supports multiple interpretations.

Lola plays seductively with both those attracted to women, and women attracted to men. Fierstein & Lauper's character and Porter's choices in interpreting it challenges preconceptions, changes people's minds, and leads them to accept others. I think that's the point. Lola's playful ambiguity is obviously speaking to a lot of people.

[Someone in a Tree2]

Posted: 5/17/13 at 5:02pm

Wow, here's a wound that just won't heal, will it?

I saw the first preview in New York, so it's possible the tone of Billy's performance has changed since I saw it. But the character I saw portrayed that night was clearly a gay man's story who was denied any chance to ACT on his gayness, so was left in the age-old role of asexual court jester and wise godmother meant to guide the straight hero into a happier romantic life for the hero.

I've been shouted down on these boards for this view. But I think you'd be very hard-pressed to find many folks in the audience for Kinky Boots who imagine Lola is straight by the evidence onstage.

[muscle23ftl]

Posted: 5/17/13 at 5:09pm

Straight or gay, Billy Porter's performance was one of the best I've seen.

[Mister Matt]

Posted: 5/17/13 at 5:27pm

I don't think you or anyone should be ashamed for trying to guess.

I don't think so either. That's what I feel this "Lola is straight" campaign seems to push.

Fierstein & Lauper's character and Porter's choices in interpreting it challenges preconceptions, changes people's minds, and leads them to accept others.

It's not really their character, though. Fierstein basically siphoned through the character from the film who was based on a real person. Porter plays him gay and obviously so.

Lola's playful ambiguity is obviously speaking to a lot of people.

Lola's confidence is speaking to a lot of people, not her ambiguity. Otherwise, there would be some discussion to that effect to drive the point home. There isn't.

Straight or gay, Billy Porter's performance was one of the best I've seen.

Then he must have changed it completely from the Chicago run. His range was his Lola voice (which was strained and monotonously OVER ACTED ALL THE TIME) and his non-drag voice. His singing was good, though. But I just got tired of his over-the-top diva persona turned on every second he was in drag.

[Theater'sBestFriend]

Posted: 5/17/13 at 11:35pm

Someone, I don't think anyone should feel remotely wounded by a lively, friendly discussion about an interesting character (clearly, interesting enough to have generated this thread!).

I do think there's a point of view apparently different from yours, though. You mentioned "the character I saw portrayed that night was clearly a gay man's story" -- but the person who wrote it doesn't seem to agree with you. Think about it: sometimes she's Lola, sometimes Simon; sometimes she's ultra-glamorous, and sometimes a prizefighter. Is Lola 100% man? 100% woman? Not so easy to say, is it? That's because the character, as written by Fierstein/Lauper & performed by Porter, contains aspects of the best of both, an ambiguity that does indeed reflect confidence.

Now, if a person refuses to be pegged as completely male or female, they can be straight OR gay, right? Sexual orientation depends on a person's gender, as well as their lover's, after all. Give Fierstein some credit -- he and Porter are BOTH right. I would venture to say the Outer Critics & Drama League would agree, which is part of why both named it Best Musical.

[Theater'sBestFriend]

Posted: 5/17/13 at 11:53pm

"Then he must have changed it completely from the Chicago run."

Wait, Mister Matt -- you mean you haven't even SEEN Kinky Boots on Broadway?! Good luck getting a ticket now!

[Kad]

Posted: 5/18/13 at 12:00am

You are reading a lack of traits as the presence of them. We don't know WHAT Lola/Simon sees himself as. Fierstein doesn't really seem to think an exploration of the character's gender identity is pertinent to the plot.

And I really don't understand how the show picking up awards somehow validates your argument that it's a nuanced view of gender. Correlation does not equal causation (and, in my opinion, the initial argument is a weak one to begin with, supported by projection of desire onto a fairly shallow book).

[Theater'sBestFriend]

Posted: 5/18/13 at 12:13am

"Fierstein doesn't really seem to think an exploration of the character's gender identity is pertinent to the plot."

OK, now I know you're kidding.

To be clear, I didn't say I'm right BECAUSE it won Best Musical with the Outer Critics' Circle and Drama League, any more than because it has great word of mouth and is doing boffo box office. I'm just saying that a lot of people love it. Surely, that's not controversial.

[Bettyboy72]

Posted: 5/18/13 at 12:16am

I think the show stresses that it doesn't matter what anyone wears or who they love. Lola doesn't have to make sense or define herself.

Also with Billy's voice being so raspy he is channeling Whitney Houston in the years before her passing.

Updated On: 5/18/13 at 12:16 AM

[Wishing Only Wounds]

Posted: 5/18/13 at 3:52pm

The fact that there's a thread on this website about it, and that the book writer and actor disagreed about it, shows that there's something there. That's a great thing; theatre is suppose to make you ask questions. If we all agreed, that'd be no fun.

I am so curious to see someone else play Lola, because it was quite clear to me that Billy Porter was making his Lola gay, chances are that it had to do with the fact that I thought of this thread, but for me, as an audience member, it didn't feel right. I think he's giving a breathtaking performance, but some of his choices didn't feel right to me; that's the way it's suppose to be.

In regards to my gender and sex comment: why is Lola "flat out gay" and why was it not even a question that the character is gay?
Whether you're heterosexual or homosexual, you can be classified as straight or gay simply due to societal normals. I purposely did not mention asexuality because my stance has nothing to do with that. It is that, if we take Lola as being heterosexual, his gender (based on society) may be that he is gay... even though he is not homosexual. I think it's a fascinating topic that has been avoided for many years but with identities such as metrosexuality becoming more embraced in society, I think Kinky Boots is a perfect vehicle to share that gender and sex is not related. That is what I took out of Kinky Boots, and I felt that Billy Porter was getting extremely lost in the idea that Lola has to be gay.

[Someone in a Tree2]

Posted: 5/18/13 at 4:08pm

"Sometimes she's Lola, sometimes Simon; sometimes she's ultra-glamorous, and sometimes a prizefighter. Is Lola 100% man? 100% woman? Not so easy to say, is it?"

Poppycock. Lola is never a woman, no matter how much she invests in wigs, makeup and arch line readings. Lola is a drag queen, pure and simple. And like all drag queens, when the makeup comes off, she is Simon. It's true of Lola, true of my drag queen friends, and true of me when I choose to do drag for a night.

My point had more to due with whom she loves, a detail I find essential to understanding her. (My jaundiced reading is she has a crush on Charlie Price which she sublimates into a program to help his factory and love-life.) But we won't learn anything about her own love life from Harvey's book or Cindy's score, will we? Like I said before, keeping her asexual keeps her in a court jester box that doesn't feel progressive and genderbending to me.

[darquegk]

Posted: 5/18/13 at 4:13pm

Lola is queer. Queer is not gay, not always. Gay is queer. Queer is not gay.

The "queer umbrella," as they say in academic studies on queer theory and gender studies, is a large and branching term for anyone who steps outside of the confines of heteronormativity. At the far end we have things like homosexuality, easily-codified and definitively transgressive in a heteronormative patriarchy. At the far end we get things like feminism and masturbation, which are "queer stances" and "queer acts" because they destabilize, even in some slight way, the norms of the hegemony. In between are tons and tons of grey areas: things, acts, lifestyles and people who do not color within the lines, and frequently resent being asked to.

[Wilmingtom]

Posted: 5/18/13 at 4:29pm

Now really, who would cast Billy Porter as a straight drag queen?

[Theater'sBestFriend]

Posted: 5/18/13 at 4:35pm

"Lola is never a woman, no matter how much she invests in wigs, makeup and arch line readings."

I appreciate your sharing what you already know about drag. It might also interest you to know that doing drag and being transgender aren't the same thing. Drag is a performance, a style of camp humor that can be done by both those who are and those who aren't transgender. Most people who are transgender feel that their gender identity is their true identity, and appreciate when others respect it too. They would find the above comment disrespectful, and possibly quite hurtful.

I think people are liking Kinky Boots so much because of its story about getting beyond preconceptions and toward acceptance of others for who they are.

[Theater'sBestFriend]

Posted: 5/18/13 at 4:43pm

"Queer is not gay, not always. Gay is queer. Queer is not gay."

Well put! I think it's so cool Broadway has produced a musical getting people to think and talk about this.

[Someone in a Tree2]

Posted: 5/18/13 at 5:10pm

"It might also interest you to know that doing drag and being transgender aren't the same thing." ......!!!!!

When in the world did I ever confuse drag folks with trans folks? Of course drag is a performance. Of course trans is a total inner personal identity. The two things are miles apart. No argument from me there.

And where in the world did you get the idea that Lola was transgender? She's a high camp performer who wears peacock bright plumage and lives in a spotlight wherever she goes. None of that matches the choices that transgender people generally make. And if THAT were the story Kinky Boots wanted to tell, then gee, my friend, they seem to have fallen even shorter of their goal than I first surmised.

[darquegk]

Posted: 5/18/13 at 6:12pm

This reminds me of two Nineties television characters who were heterosexual men, ostensibly, but found escape in drag:

David Duchovny's FBI agent on Twin Peaks liked the ladies and considered himself male, but preferred to spend much of his life in the drag role of "Denise." Similarly, Drew Carey's brother on "The Drew Carey Show" was a man... who just happened to feel good dressed as a woman.

Despite this character trope popping up in the Nineties repeatedly, it has more or less disappeared today, and people assume that drag equals gay again.

[Someone in a Tree2]

Posted: 5/18/13 at 6:23pm

^ You're talking about transvestites, guys who feel comfortable or get a sexual charge from dressing in women's clothes. Very often (maybe usually) straight guys. That's a whole 'nother thing as far as I'm concerned.

Drag is drag, like Kabuki or Beauty Pageantry or any other ritualized showbiz construct of wildly heightened femininity and wildly heightened performance.