Is the Theatre World Really That Ruthless?

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Is the Theatre World Really That Ruthless?

Posted: 1/21/12 at 2:44am

I'll start by saying that theatre in all of its forms is my passion and inspiration in life. I live and breath the music and acting involved.

So far, however, my only experience with actually performing with any seriously put on production of any kind was a college conservatory when I was 16.

And while I loved performing... I hated the atmosphere. Our director and musical director were universally hated for being unnecissarily slanderous and speaking cruelly to even the youngest kids with no experience. I understand tough love, but it went beyond that.

They continuously told us that we were just soft, and that this is what all of the theatre world was like, so get used to it.

So... is it, really? I understand you will always have the directors, etc who are not the nicest people no matter where you go. But is the theatre world really ALWAYS that cold and cruel?

Is the Theatre World Really That Ruthless?

Posted: 1/21/12 at 2:46am

In all practicality and succinctness, I'd be the granddaddy of all liars if I told you otherwise.

"There is no problem so big that it cannot be run away from." ~ Charles M. Schulz

Is the Theatre World Really That Ruthless?

Posted: 1/21/12 at 5:15am

As in all walks of life, it can be tough going when you are dealing with the practicalities of the theater. However, there's a big difference between developing professional toughness and being cruel and vicious just because you can get away with it. That ain't theater. It's destructive energy that many people with hidden agendas direct toward potential victims (i.e., people they perceive as less powerful then themselves). Yeah, you can say that's human nature. But it doesn't make it right and it adds NOTHING to the experience because it's based on a lie. Any director who says that's how to get results is just using their position to direct their personal demons against others. The ONLY time people do that is when they believe they can get away with it. It may happen in the theater world, but that is not what theater is about. Far from it.

Updated On: 1/21/12 at 05:15 AM

Is the Theatre World Really That Ruthless?

Posted: 1/21/12 at 7:22am

No, that's not how all theater is.

Is it tough? Yes. Demeaning? No.

That being said, performing MUST be a passion because if you don't LOVE it, it won't be worth it. Yes, you are held to a high standard every minute you in rehearsal -- but by then, you will the skills and work ethic to understand it. (or SHOULD)

Theater at your age should be about fostering the love/passion ALONG with learning the work ethic.

One reason I hate Dance Moms is that I think that is "telling" people, that the teacher's behavior IS necessary to become a professional or even an excellent performer. HOGWASH.

If we're not having fun, then why are we doing it? These are DISCUSSION boards, not mutual admiration boards. Discussion only occurs when we are willing to hear what others are thinking, regardless of whether it is alignment to our own thoughts.

Is the Theatre World Really That Ruthless?

Posted: 1/21/12 at 9:21am

A true great teacher doesn't have to be ruthless or even shout , because they know how to captivate and intrigues the class, unfortunately it is a very rare skill and a good teacher cannot be made and are born like that, just like a chef or a nurse is.

Is the Theatre World Really That Ruthless?

Posted: 1/21/12 at 9:36am

If you want to be a professional performer you had better make peace with rejection and learn the value of tenacity (and a thick skin).

....but the world goes 'round

Is the Theatre World Really That Ruthless?

Posted: 1/21/12 at 10:19am

There are awful awful awful people in this business. Most of that behavior is derived from how insecure people are.

All you can do is grow a thick skin and strive to be a positive person, even in tough situations. Make friends who are supportive (they do exist). Work hard to be genuinely happy for friends who are having more success than you. Offer support to those friends who haven't had the successes you've had.

It's easy to get caught up in the negativity of this business, but it's equally as easy to refuse to add to it.

Is the Theatre World Really That Ruthless?

Posted: 1/21/12 at 10:19am

Is the Theatre World Really That Ruthless?

Posted: 1/21/12 at 10:26am

Hard to say without knowing you're frame of reference and the detailes, but it sounds as if you had the bad luck of working with extremely cruel people who are not representative. But that doesn't mean that those people aren't out there, or even without them, that the road is not an arduous one.

#10

Is the Theatre World Really That Ruthless?

Posted: 1/21/12 at 10:36am

I took a playwriting class in the fall semester of my senior year. I've complained about teachers in the past but this guy was the WORST! He was mean, rude, cynical, conceited, hypocritical, pretentious and everytime he gave you feedback, he wasn't giving you feedback on how to fix your play so much as how to write the play HE would've written. Oh and he totally had a favorite in this class. So yes, the theater world can be ruthless.

Butters, go buy World of Warcraft, install it on your computer, and join the online sensation before we all murder you. --Cartman: South Park ATTENTION FANS: I will be played by James Barbour in the upcoming musical, "BroadwayWorld: The Musical."

#11

Is the Theatre World Really That Ruthless?

Posted: 1/21/12 at 10:47am

There's ruthless and then there's conceited and mean. I worked for a leading producer for quite a long time who was one of the nastiest human beings the world has ever known. Him and his partners not so much took joy in being cruel, but they saw it as their entitled right. It is what made me realize that I wanted nothing to do with that side of the business. I had to get as far away as humanly possible otherwise I would never be able to enjoy theater again.

But that's just one example. Like everything there's good and there's bad and there's extremely good and extremely bad.

#12

Is the Theatre World Really That Ruthless?

Posted: 1/21/12 at 10:48am

I thoroughly agree with dramamama611. Take heed, OP.

I found in my years of experience as stage manager, casting associate, and sometimes actor that rewarding vs. ruthless theater experiences ran about 50/50.

I also found -- in most but not all cases -- that professional, union productions ran more smoothly and everyone had a much sense of their particular role on that production. People usually supported the work of the other production team member Whether performance or tech), and professional boundaries were understood and mutually respected.

#13

Is the Theatre World Really That Ruthless?

Posted: 1/21/12 at 11:22am

Oh, I thought the title of this thread was referring to some people on this message board. If that's the case, yes.

#14

Is the Theatre World Really That Ruthless?

Posted: 1/21/12 at 11:32am

Short answer: yes. So many people are involved in any production that it is rare to deal with all nice people.

Long answer: yes. I'm music directing a high school show right now. I have a co-music director. She is in charge of the orchestra and conducts; I teach the vocal music and work on performance/balance/diction/character development. She is one of the nastiest people I've ever had the misfortune of working with. She's blunt, she's rude, and she does not take into consideration that she's dealing with teenagers. I've worked with her outside of schools and she's great with adults. Children, she can't stand. When I work with her, part of my job becomes on-set therapist. I calm the students down, explain where she's coming from, and prepare them to take their verbal beatings if they make that mistake again. If a parent comes in and complains, she's suddenly the sweetest woman in the world and she apologizes if the child took her corrections the wrong way. It's not a correction to say "that song was bad enough before she started singing it" while a student is singing two feet in front of you and can hear you. And remember, that's only a high school production.

Now imagine people who act like that in ever possible aspect of theater circling around every production like flies. They think being in theater means being tough and able to take anything. If you bring up their behavior/attitude, they spin it against you and try to make you feel like garbage for feeling insulted. My favorite is "What are you, 3? Do you need to be treated like a baby because you can't handle criticism?" No, but being treated like a human being and not something you stepped in on the street would be nice.

You really need to love what you do to survive. You can't take anything personally because that's the quickest way to burn out and give up.

#15

Is the Theatre World Really That Ruthless?

Posted: 1/21/12 at 12:08pm

I think everyone here has made good points. From my experience as a Chicago actor, I can say that some of the nicest people I have ever met are theater people. However, there is also a lot of ego and sense of entitlement, which mixed with insecurity can be very difficult sometimes. I have worked with some real assholes (usually they are directors), but also some extremely kind and friendly directors and actors.

I have to make an observation though: my experience is almost completely in Chicago and the Midwest. I did one show with mostly east coast people a couple years ago and the difference was STAGGERING. I don't want to say that east coast theater people are meaner based on only one experience, but that one experience certainly gave me the impression that that might be a possible generalization to make.

#16

Is the Theatre World Really That Ruthless?

Posted: 1/21/12 at 12:16pm

I don't know if this is any comfort, but I worked in the legal profession for decades, and there are a surprising number of stupid, petty, cruel people in that profession, too. In fact, if anyone finds a profession where you won't have to deal with such people, please let us all know. But I do think that the theater profession is unique in the constant rejection for reasons that have nothing to do with you personally or your talent or competence. As a lawyer, I never lost a client or a case for being too tall or too blond or too old. That's where the toughness has to be developed. Every job has its share of demeaning a**holes, many of them more successful than they deserve to be.

#17

Is the Theatre World Really That Ruthless?

Posted: 1/21/12 at 3:41pm

Lots of good answers here. I'll just add a few thoughts...

1. Other than launching a space shuttle, there are few professions where so many people have to function together in such precise syncronization. In most jobs, being 15 or 20 minutes late isn't a big deal; in the theater it can be fatal. With the best people, this just requires careful organization; with the worst, it's an excuse to be sadistic.

2. Very few people in the theater are as successful as they would like to be. It's all too easy to blame everyone else for one's relative lack of success.

3. Beyond the basics, nobody really knows the subtle distinctions that make for a flop or a hit. So a lot of craziness is tolerated--just in case the lunatic knows the secret.

#18

Is the Theatre World Really That Ruthless?

Posted: 1/21/12 at 4:44pm

I wonder because of the nature of the Theater business (insecure), if that is a driver for peoples personalities in the trade?

#19

Is the Theatre World Really That Ruthless?

Posted: 1/21/12 at 4:59pm

Here's a view from the other side.

I'm a musical director at a professional theatre. More and more thses days, it seems actors are ridiculously sensitive. You can't give them notes without them becoming defensive and sometimes, downright hostile.

Once, at a rehearsal, I said, "we really need to work on that song - it really sucked the last time." The actor (in his frist Equity show)threw a fit. "How DARE you??? How DARE you humiliate me in front of the cast - saying I SUCK!"

I shudder to think how this fellow would have dealt with Jerome Robbinns.

#20

Is the Theatre World Really That Ruthless?

Posted: 1/21/12 at 5:19pm

There are positive and negative working atmospheres in every kind of business, so theatre is not really out of the ordinary. I've worked with major Broadway talents and it was incredibly supportive and productive. I've worked with amateurs who are hostile, cruel and corrupt. And everything in-between. Unless you're working with the exact same group of people on every single show, the environment will always be different. This is how actor/director relationships are formed. If there is a positive experience, directors often hire the same actors again and again and the actors will consistently seek out auditions for the same directors. A reputation based on behavior can be every bit as important as a reputation based on financial/artistic success.

I always got the feeling that bad behavior in amateur or regional theatre is based on some romantic notion that theatre people are expected to be "dramatic". As if being an actor or director is a part in itself and the show being produced is purely meta. I've seen this a lot (especially in college students) and it's a curious phenomenon. The "tortured" art students are annoying as well.

"What can you expect from a bunch of seitan worshippers?" - Reginald Tresilian

#21

Is the Theatre World Really That Ruthless?

Posted: 1/21/12 at 6:41pm

"I said, "we really need to work on that song - it really sucked the last time." The actor (in his frist Equity show)threw a fit. "How DARE you??? How DARE you humiliate me in front of the cast - saying I SUCK!"

I shudder to think how this fellow would have dealt with Jerome Robbinns."

To be fair, Jon, you could have been just a little more diplomatic, especially knowing how sensitive performers can be. Also, I'm tired of people trotting out Robbins' and Bennett's behaviors as examples of how it should be done (not saying that you're doing that, Jon). Bennett and Robbins didn't get results because of their sadistic behavior, IMO. They got them because they were talented men who also happened to be sadistic pricks.

"I always got the feeling that bad behavior in amateur or regional theatre is based on some romantic notion that theatre people are expected to be "dramatic". "

This, and pretty much word to Mr Matt's entire post. Also, I find this kind of attitude is far more prevalent in regional and community theaters than in professional ones. Sometimes you find embittered individuals in community theaters that couldn't make it in the professional world, and this manifests in bad behavior. In professional theater, there's a job to be done, and hurtful attitudes aren't helpful. As Gaveston says, people have to work together closely for the show to run. It's a lot harder to do if they don't like each other.

So, to the OP, sure, ruthlessness exists, but it sounds to me that you just had bad teachers.

"If you want something, go find better class."

Updated On: 1/21/12 at 06:41 PM

#22

Is the Theatre World Really That Ruthless?

Posted: 1/21/12 at 7:22pm

Sensitive actors (and sensitive people in general) are nothing new. Addressing a problem and being tactful aren't mutually exclusive. Saying a number sucked just isn't helpful or informative or specific or motivating. It really serves no purpose other than to insult and humiliate. I probably wouldn't react in the same way, but I definitely wouldn't have much confidence in the person who made that sort of empty remark.

"What can you expect from a bunch of seitan worshippers?" - Reginald Tresilian

#23

Is the Theatre World Really That Ruthless?

Posted: 1/21/12 at 7:55pm

Jon is right, of course. There are actors who have never learned what criticism is and don't know how to handle it. And then there are those who think they're flawless and pointing out that they didn't cut off in time is a petty personal attack against their character. I dealt with someone a few months ago who shut down completely during music rehearsals because I pointed out that we needed to review a tricky syncopated rhythm that he wasn't quite getting the feel of. I mean he shut down. He barely opened his mouth to sing in front of me in future rehearsals, complained to the director that I was harassing him, and tried to turn his costars against me. He failed, of course, as one correction brought out his full blown diva attitude, but that didn't stop him from trying to take me down for pointing out he made a mistake.

When I said all aspects of theater, I meant all aspects of theater. And whoever pointed out that's it's not just the theater world deserves a prize. It seems more pronounced in theater because you're stuck spending a very stressful period of time with a small group of people. You're putting together a project that could be ripped to shreds as soon as an audience sees it. Everyone is under stress and that can bring out the worst in some people.

#24

Is the Theater World Really That Ruthless?

Posted: 1/21/12 at 8:52pm

Is the Theater World Really That Ruthless?
Posted On:1/21/12 at 11:22
By pitfever:
"Oh, I thought the title of this thread was referring to some people on this message board. If that's the case, yes."

LOL! This sentiment is exactly what I thought of when I read the OP! It is sad when some of the posters here show just how ruthless, snotty and hateful people in and around theater can be. Watch your back, hone your skills, confront the competition with self-confidence, listen to people who have your best interests at heart, learn from rejection, keep trying, and learn what the most negative people's weaknesses are and remind them of them occasionally, and remember that the people who sometimes opine the most usually say the least.

#25

Is the Theater World Really That Ruthless?

Posted: 1/21/12 at 10:27pm

To me, I've found it only seems more pronounced in theatre if you spend a lot of time working in theatre. But I see sensitive types who can't handle criticism and get defensive or shut down in the business world all the time. I work with people in the real estate investment business that would make diva actors wet their pants.

The theatrical atmosphere is different, but the personality types in and out of the theatre world are pretty similar. I think people use theatre as an excuse for poor behavior and communication on the stereotype that it is somehow to be expected. In acting classes, emotional outbursts are encouraged, but the instructors rarely make the distinction exploration and emotional control.

Yes, the theatre can be stressful, but I've been WAY more stressed about compiling and distributing an quarterly report in a legal team for millionaires and (honestly) billionaires on an Executive Committee and Board of Directors. Rehearsing and opening a show is usually what relaxes me from the stress of the regular world. But it takes a good team to make it that way. Being in the theatre simply is no excuse for bad behavior, being tactless, inconsiderate, disrespectful, over-sensitive or hysterical. I worked with some hefty Tony winners and icons and they were simply lovely, so it is possible.

"What can you expect from a bunch of seitan worshippers?" - Reginald Tresilian

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