James Levine Dead — Page 2

You are, of course, correct. I'm listening for Pavarotti and Freni. Karajan just happened to luck out to have two of the greatest singers of the 20th Century on his recording. In fact, I find Karajan's conducting usually overwrought and lacking Italianate style. Same for his very unidiomatic Carmen, which benefits from having the ravishing Leontyne Price and Franco Corelli as leads.

I think that appraisal of Levine from Parterre is pretty accurate. IMO, he had very few original ideas as a conductor. Granted. I never heard him conduct a bad performance, but neither were they ever transcendent, or particularly idiomatic. You're right about the instrumentalists. There were tremendously talented musicians in that pit. They sounded good under pretty much any conductor that took up the baton. Levine's greatest asset was that he played servant to his singers, allowing them to get away with interpretive indulgences that other conductors would reign in. Speaking of singers, like Karajan, Levine was the beneficiary of generations of unsurpassed talent. He was lucky enough to preside over the Met pit during the careers of singers the likes of which we may never see again. No doubt, the contribution of many musicians fell in his favor.

Updated On: 3/20/21 at 09:06 PM

MikeInTheDistrict said: "You can listen to Levine, even appreciate him, without hand-waving or minimizing his monstrosity. I listen to Karajan's La Boheme with Pavarotti and Freni while still condemning the fact that he was a fervent Nazi."

It's a bit of an exaggeration to say Karajan was a "fervent Nazi." The Twisted Muse is a good book on Nazi-sympathizers in the world of opera.

Levine had sex with teenaged boys (though in most instances, they were of age of consent in the states where they lived). It's a horrible thing for him to have done, especially as he seems to have used his power and position in the world of classical music to get these boys to do something they did not want to do, but terms like "his monstrosity" makes it sound like he's a gay Humbert Humbert. Someone above called him a pedophile, though pedophiles go after pre-pubescent children.

I guess this will count for you as "hand-waving or minimizing," but I'm totally okay, and indeed satisfied, with his having lost his position and his reputation as a result of his actions. He deserved it. And I wish those boys, now men, a better future than their past. I hope they have, or can, heal. But I'm also okay with noting what his crimes actually were, rather than stringing together vague hyperbole, and I'm okay with noting that he was an amazing conductor.

Updated On: 3/21/21 at 01:11 AM

Gotcha.

George in DC said: "whatever2 said: "> He got rid of the problem players and he groomed the orchestra to be the first rate ensemble they became.

"

I don't think "groomed" is the word you want to use here...

MikeInTheDistrict said: "joevitus said: ""Levine had sex with teenaged boys (though in most instances, they were of age of consent in thestates where they lived). It's a horrible thing for him to have done, especially as he seems to have used his power and position in the world of classical music to get these boys to do something they did not want to do,but terms like "his monstrosity" makes it sound like he's agay Humbert Humbert. "


Rape. It was rape. The term we use for what you're describing here is not "having sex" with someone who "did not want to do" that. It is rape. James Levine was a rapist. WTF relevance does "age of consent" bear when one of the parties was groomed, manipulated, and coerced into giving said "consent" and there was such a huge power differential at play? The boys he raped were barely out of childhood, physically and certainly psychologically. What Levine did was no different from what Harvey Weinstein did, and the latter has received far stronger words than "monstrosity."

I am a mental health professional. I provide therapy to people who are victims of trauma -- not just sexual trauma, but all kinds. Levine's behavior was abusive beyond just his sexual offenses, and would be traumatic to grown adults, let alone a young person who hasn't even finished puberty yet. I see firsthand how physical, emotional, and sexual abuse devastates people. I don't think you fully comprehend the egregious nature of the behavior you are describing here."

Rape is a very dicey term here, but of course rape is a powerful word, so it's the one used. As he did not physically force anyone, and all but I think one were of the age of legal consent, I'm going to say he "sexually abused" and manipulated most and additionally engaged in statutory rape with at least one.

I was sexually abused myself, and at about the same age as these men when they suffered those experiences (though I believe was below the age of consent for my state--I don't find that info easy to look up). I don't consider anyone "just" sexually abused. It's a terrible thing to have happened, in and of itself, and it has ongoing ramifications. That doesn't make it rape. Your definitions and emotions are not more valid than mine.

For all the burnishing of Levine's interpretive prowess, I cannot think of a single score where I would rate his recording as my benchmark, especially in the symphonic repertoire. He always struck me as more of a showman than a serious artist, and the frequent performances I heard him conduct at the Met during the last 20 years of his tenure rarely rose about the level of competent (and, sometimes, fell quite short of that). He was a skilled pianist, but when I heard him as an accompanist of singers, he was either deferential or overly indulgent. The one time I heard him conduct the BSO live, a Brahms 2nd, it was sloppy and under-rehearsed.

HogansHero said: "joevitus said: "Rape is a very dicey term here, but of course rape is a powerful word, so it's the oneused. As he did not physically force anyone, and all but I think one were of the age of legal consent, I'm going to say he"sexually abused" and manipulated most andadditionally engaged in statutoryrape with at least one."

You are dead wrong. Rape (federal definition)is “the penetration, no matter how slight, of the vagina or anus with any body part or object, or oral penetration by a sex organ of another person, without the consent of the victim.”

That's it. No physical force is even remotely required. Rape is a powerful word and the right one to use here. And age of consent is irrelevant."

Thank you, thank you, THANK YOU Hogan! You are forever and a day a sound voice of reason on this board.

CarlosAlberto said: "HogansHero said: "joevitus said: "Rape is a very dicey term here, but of course rape is a powerful word, so it's the oneused. As he did not physically force anyone, and all but I think one were of the age of legal consent, I'm going to say he"sexually abused" and manipulated most andadditionally engaged in statutoryrape with at least one."

You are dead wrong. Rape (federal definition)is “the penetration, no matter how slight, of the vagina or anus with any body part or object, or oral penetration by a sex organ of another person, without the consent of the victim.”

That's it. No physical force is even remotely required. Rape is a powerful word and the right one to use here. And age of consent is irrelevant."

Thank you, thank you, THANK YOU Hogan! You are forever and a day a sound voice of reason on this board."

This is a strange use of the word consent, as the people involved seem to have given their consent, but felt manipulated in doing so. Was Levine ever put on trial for rape? Did his actions meet the standard for a trial?