Jerry Herman and THE EGO

[BobbyBubby]

Posted: 1/3/08 at 1:40pm

Okay, first of all, I'm not bashing the man. I adore his music, have all of his Cast Recordings, concert discs, tribute discs, etc.


But every time he opens his mouth to speak, I get this arrogant, pompous man, who seems to be very defensive about writing "a hummable tune". We get it Jerry, your work is accessible.

BUT-

You've also had more than a handful of flops (Dear World, Mack and Mabel, Grand Tour). I feel like he pits himself against Sondheim, and in turn, comes of as kind of a jerk. Am I the only one who gets this? It is one thing to be confident, but, you didn't re-invent the wheel Herman. In terms of the history of musical theatre, were his contributions groundbreaking. Probably not. Is Hello, Dolly! one of the most beloved shows of all time? Of course. But to me, he just picked up where Irving Berlin left of...

I pre-ordered his new docu DVD and then cancelled it, knowing that I would probably get the Herman I detest. La Cage Tony speach anyone?

[jaystarr]

Posted: 1/3/08 at 1:42pm

No. I love Mr. Jerry Herman.

and leave him alone Bobby!

J*
Updated On: 1/3/08 at 01:42 PM

[BobbyBubby]

Posted: 1/3/08 at 1:44pm

Whatever! Read the whole post genius. I love the man's work, just not him. I don't think I'm coming from nowhere in calling out his ego.

[morosco]

Posted: 1/3/08 at 1:50pm

On the documentary I thought he came across as a charming man. Very genuine.

[WithoutATrace]

Posted: 1/3/08 at 1:53pm

I love Jerry Herman so much.

What did he say in his La Cage Tony speech that was so contraversial?

[nealb1]

Posted: 1/3/08 at 1:53pm

I suppose in the issue of fairness, when you're very confident about yourself, to some people.....it could come across as being stuck up.

For us to judge anyone that we don't personally know, is very, very unfair.

I think we can all agree that Jerry Herman is one of the least EGO minded people out there. He came across very, very gentle and real in the documentary. His acceptance speech at The Tonys when he won for "La Cage" was not ego minded at all...far from it.

I'm paraprashing here.....but, his acceptance speech went something like........there's a rumor going around Broadway that there aren't anymore hummable tunes and that's not true. We are doing it 8 times at week at The Palace Theatre. Come and see our show...you'll love it..........something to that effect. "La Cage" was up against "Sunday In The Park" that year for Best Musical/Score and "Sunday" didn't win.

I had the pleasure of talking to him, at great length, a few years back here in LA during a production of "Mame" that I was in. He came to a few rehearsals and to Opening Night. At the Opening Night party, we had a fantastic conversation about "Mame" and the on again/off again tv movie that will never happen. There was never any ego.........no attitude.......nothing! Just a man who clearly, enjoys his shows and loves to talk to people.




Updated On: 1/3/08 at 01:53 PM

[GoSmileLaughCryClap]

Posted: 1/3/08 at 2:25pm

What was special about Jerry Herman was that he kept a certain kind of star vehicle musical comedy pumping in the mid-sixties. While it may seem he has a gripe with Sondheim, the reality is he wrote musical comedies, and with Dolly and Mame had huge success.

When you think that West Side Story and Gypsy (an inverted version of Herman's star vehicle) opened years before his biggest successes, it's remarkable that Herman was able to find such great success. He reached people at a truly populist level at a time when the Broadway musical was about to stumble. But as big a smash as Hello Dolly was, Funny Girl introduced the diva of the ages in a bio-pic style musical that was right up there with what he was writing at the same time.

And while Herman always seems to be pitted against Sondheim, it's actually Kander and Ebb who were able to take his Tin Pan Alley sensibility and create more sophisticated works like Cabaret and Chicago. It's funny that Prince and Fosse worked with Kander and Ebb and I think in a way elevated their work.

While Gower Champion and Gene Saks were complete pros, Prince and Fosse were the "genius" directors who worked with Sondheim and Kander and Ebb. Cy Coleman was also prolific during Herman's greatest success and offered a jazzier, sexier musical language that ran counter to Herman's reinvention of the MGM movie musical.

The failure of Dear World, The Grand Tour and Mack and Mabel coincided with the juggernaut of the Prince/Sondheim reign. It's understandable that Herman would be proud that La Cage aux Folles, directed by none other than Arthur Laurents would be a hit, and best Sunday In The Park With George with critics, audiences and award givers.

When all is said and done, Herman is about two things: Hello Dolly and Mame; and both were old fashioned even when they were new. You can talk Milk and Honey and Mack and Mabel till the cows come home, but facts are facts.

He should be very proud of his contribution to popular culture and the Broadway scene, but Herman ended up being overshadowed by a group of writers and directors who pushed the musical in a new direction.

Updated On: 1/3/08 at 02:25 PM

[philcrosby]

Posted: 1/3/08 at 2:28pm

I don't think he's pompous in the least. Instead, he is very self-aware.

His songs hark back to Irving Berlin more than anyone else -- no surprise that his first musical was ANNIE GET YOUR GUN. And in the '80s, when papers like the New York Times were writing about how brilliant Sondheim and SUNDAY AND THE PARK were virtually other day, the LA CAGE win was a HUGE shocker.

Even today, "the simple hummable show tune" is a hard one to find. In SPRING AWAKENING? No. RENT? No. AVENUE Q? Perhaps, but only as parody, not as anything heartfelt. GREY GARDENS? Maybe, but mostly as pastiche material. Perhaps only in the Disney musicals, but look when they were originally written.

Jerry Herman's songs sound like they have always existed, melodies that you have known, even if you hear them for the first time. They are like dear old friends, cozying up to you for a laugh, a kiss, or a good cry.

Does he display any ego? Not to my viewing. But if he did, he would certainly deserve to.

[ljay889]

Posted: 1/3/08 at 2:29pm

His Tony speech can be seen on the PBS special they did a few years ago "The American Musical" or something. It's on DVD.

He did come off a LITTLE snarky with that comment. It did seem like a litle blow at Sondheim's VERY complicated score for SUNDAY. I assume SUNDAY was the front-runner for Best Score that year?
Updated On: 1/3/08 at 02:29 PM

[morosco]

Posted: 1/3/08 at 2:46pm

From Wiki:
[Sunday in the Park with George] was, however, considered a brilliant artistic achievement for Sondheim and, although Sunday was nominated for ten Tony Awards, it won only two design awards. The major winner of the night was Jerry Herman's La Cage aux Folles, and in his acceptance speech, Herman announced that the "simple, hummable tune" was still alive on Broadway, a remark some perceived as criticism of Sondheim's pointillistic score. (Herman has since denied that that was his intent.)

I believe that Herman's comment was completely blown out of proportion.

[jv92]

Posted: 1/3/08 at 2:49pm

Yes, it was assumed the Tonys' darling, Mr. Sondheim, would win for his marvelous score for Sunday. And he deserved it. The beloved humanitarian Arthur Laurents (who hated Sunday) and Bob Fosse (who also hated it) would probably be the only two theatre professionals to say that Sondheim was undeserving of the award. Herman's win was shocking and slightly uncalled for. In my opinion, he was more deserving of the award for Mack and Mabel, Mame and even Dear World! But good for him that he won! He's a nice fellow and it was a great comeback for him! I believe Herman appologized to Steve and now praises him to the high heavens every time he gets a chance.
Oh, and to be honest with you. I would have given Kander and Ebb the Tony for The Rink over La Cage that year. I just thought there were WAY too many reprises in that score. Reprises are effective, but not that effective.
Updated On: 1/3/08 at 02:49 PM

[morosco]

Posted: 1/3/08 at 2:53pm

Herman's win was shocking and slightly uncalled for.

Lol. Stranger things have happened. i.e. Contact winning Best Musical.

[Yankeefan007]

Posted: 1/3/08 at 3:08pm

philcrosby, Here is a small list of songs from current shows which are readily hummable, though hardly in the American lexicon.

1. Seasons of Love - Rent
2. Totally F*cked - Spring Awakening
3. Show People - Curtains
4. It's a Business - Curtains
5. Omigod, You Guys - Legally Blonde
6. You Can't Stop the Beat - Hairspray
7. I'm Not Dead Yet - Spamalot
8. Popular - Wicked
9. Toledo Surprise - Drowsy Chaperone

[papalovesmambo]

Posted: 1/3/08 at 3:15pm

jerry's ego touched me in an inappropriate manner when i was 15.

Posted: 1/3/08 at 3:19pm

I see where you're coming from. Herman has had huge huge hits but never respect. Sondheim gets respect but has never had a huge huge hit. There's a way to rub it in and not seem a jerk: If Herman had said "I can not believe I am holding this Tony in my hand! Steve wrote such a brilliant, complex score- I was sure this award was his. Thank you, Tony voters for loving my simple, hummable melodies" he'd have been seen as a gracious generous guy.

[nealb1]

Posted: 1/3/08 at 3:29pm

Joe, I agree with you. Sort of the damned if you do, and damned if you don't.

It so easy to pass judgement and decide what total strangers should or shouldn't say.

The bottom line is still the same.........JH is a very, very talented person.

Every year, with every award show.........Tonys, Emmys, Oscars, Grammys, etc........there's a dark horse that wins. Regardless of who wins, there will always be someone who thinks that it should be someone else who walks away with the trophy.
Updated On: 1/3/08 at 03:29 PM

[philcrosby]

Posted: 1/3/08 at 3:38pm

Yankeefan, you got me there, though I would disagree "totally" with Totally F**cked.

Interesting that of the remainder, four of them were written to specifically sound like songs of an earlier (more showtune-friendly?) era.

[TheatreDiva90016]

Posted: 1/3/08 at 3:53pm

Didn't Jerry refer to his style of writing as (this is not a quote...) 'dated' or ;'going oiu=ut of style'? If he says that about himself, where does the ego come in?

It doesn't.

[BigFatBlonde]

Posted: 1/3/08 at 4:11pm

All artists have egos for Christ's sake.

Herman is out and proud about his style. And I say GOOD FOR HIM.

Can you imagine having written something as wonderful as La Cage, particularly after a decade of commercial failure.. and then to be told by critics, press and Broadway chatterboxes that your labors aren't worthy of respect because another composer writes in a different style as you?

It is one thing to write crap and to be dismissed..but Herman doesn't write crap. Herman paints in different colors than Sondheim,but both are great artists whose work deserve respect and appreciation.

[PalJoey]

Posted: 1/3/08 at 4:15pm

While I love Jerry Herman more than all of you put together--can any of YOU sing the entire score to "Milk and Honey"?--I remember the Tony broadcast distinctly.

After Jerry made his ill-considered acceptance remark, all of my assembled and intoxicated friends turned to each other and said (versions of) "What a BITCH!"

Updated On: 1/3/08 at 04:15 PM

[morosco]

Posted: 1/3/08 at 4:27pm

"There's a way to rub it in and not seem a jerk: If Herman had said "I can not believe I am holding this Tony in my hand! Steve wrote such a brilliant, complex score- I was sure this award was his. Thank you, Tony voters for loving my simple, hummable melodies" he'd have been seen as a gracious generous guy.

I think that's what he was trying to say when he said "simple, hummable tune" was still alive on Broadway". I don't think he was trying to rub it in. It just came out wrong and people misinterpreted what he was trying to say.

[PalJoey]

Posted: 1/3/08 at 4:33pm

I saw it and I don't think everyone in my living misinterpreted it. I think it WAS a bitchy thing to say, given that at the time "unhummable" Sondheim was a label that was directly (and undeservedly) applied to Sondheim.

Sondheim himself had even parodied this complaint agaist him in Merrily by having the Jason Alexander character sing "You need a tune you can hum. / You need a tune that goes dum-de-dum-de-dum."

But Jerry's comments were undeniably bitchy.

And every bitchy show queen--even the Sondheim lovers--went, "You GO, Jerry Girl!"

[BigFatBlonde]

Posted: 1/3/08 at 4:41pm

It was bitchy.. but I never thought of it as an attempt to slight Sondheim. But more as man completely in love with a style of musical theatre and frustrated with a community begrudging any respect for that style of show...especially one so well crafted as La Cage.

It was Herman's artistic "I am what I am" moment.

Updated On: 1/3/08 at 04:41 PM

[Borstalboy]

Posted: 1/3/08 at 4:45pm

Yeah, he has an ego. SO WHAT?? Why does everyone feel that people in the arts absolutely have to have an "aw shucks little ol' me?" attitude? You will probably never be close to them on an intimate level so why does it matter, for chrissakes?

[BobbyBubby]

Posted: 1/3/08 at 4:50pm

His Tony speach was uncalled for. Yes, I understand the confidence. Sondheim has confidence to boot, but is still down to earth. I feel like Herman thinks he made a bigger contribution to the American Musical than he actually did. The only groundbreaking show I feel he did was La Cage, but that came at the right time, with the right cast and book.

I don't think the man is lack of talent. I love a lot of the darkness in Dear World and Mack and Mabel. I just don't like the way he speaks about his work. He is a legend, but to say that he wrote much more than great show tunes, would be slightly false. He is the Irving Berlin of his generation. Sondheim is the Bernstein or Harold Arlen of his. When La Cage won, Herman seemed to amount the win to America wanting hummable tunes versus plot driven ones seen in Sondheim. I think Herman wishes his work was revived as often (on Broadway) than Sondheim's. BUt the La Cage revival failed, and Mame and Dolly! have has a hard time coming back to Broadway. Herman will always be none as the man of melody, but the richness, complex, challenging work Sondheim has given us is more LASTING and ambitious.

I'm not saying Herman has to re-invent the wheel to earn my respect, because I adore his material, even the flops. I just wish he would let the material speak for itself. especially when it came to his Tony speech. I have seen him on many interviews, and there always seems to be an "I'm a Legend" vibe about him. May just be me, but I think he has trouble (as all of us Queens do) keeping his bitchy queen side private.