Jerry Herman and THE EGO- Page 2

[nealb1]

Posted: 1/3/08 at 5:24pm

Bobby, you're reading far into it....don't make something out of nothing. So what if he said something that you didn't like. How does that change anything?

I've never, ever gotten the impression from him on tv, or in person when I spoke to him that he has a "Legend" persona about himself. If that's how you see it, that ok's. The only person who knows what's inside Jerry's brain is Jerry....and, vice versa.

I'm sure we can all agree that we'd all like his works revived more often, rather than just Jerry himself as you wrote.

[PalJoey]

Posted: 1/3/08 at 5:26pm

Even "Milk and Honey"?

[BobbyBubby]

Posted: 1/3/08 at 5:38pm

Yeah, I think a revival of Milk and Honey with Idina would run, like, forever.

[A Director]

Posted: 1/3/08 at 7:02pm

Bobby, Of course you are bashing Jerry Herman. If you don't think so, you don't S from S. Herman made his speech TWENTY-FOUR YEARS AGO. The time limit on your outrage has run out. For the record, I was shocked that Sunday in the Park with George did not win Best Score. Were you holding out hope that Baby or The Rink would win the prize?

And what role, pray tell, do you think Idina would play in Milk and Honey? It's a very dated show because attitudes have changed.

Posted: 1/3/08 at 7:12pm

But every time he opens his mouth to speak, I get this arrogant, pompous man

funny, i get the same thing whenever i read a post by BobbyBubby!

[jv92]

Posted: 1/3/08 at 8:04pm

"Lol. Stranger things have happened. i.e. Contact winning Best Musical."

Herman winning was certainly was not as big as that, I'll agree with you there. At least he SORT OF deserved his prize.

[wonderfulwizard11]

Posted: 1/3/08 at 8:17pm

Was Herman's winning really that much of a surprise? Other than the Times, wasn't the critical reaction to SUNDAY mixed, at best?

As for Herman's speech, Margo gives a good explanation for Herman's speech in this thread. I don't think he was being pompous at all, and I thought Herman was very humble on the PBS special.

Afformentioned thread

[theaterkid1015]

Posted: 1/3/08 at 9:46pm

And then, "Sunday" won the Pulitzer.

Can we call it even now?

[BobbyBubby]

Posted: 1/3/08 at 10:24pm

What has been pompous about my post n69n? Just because I don't adore everything I see, doesn't make me a bitter old betty. It was just a freaking post. NOtice I never personally insult anyone on this board, but you do it so easily when you disagree. You don't know enough about the subject to have a reasonable conversation with me. Nothing about the TONE of my original post lead towards a Herman bashing. It was just an idea.

[neddyfrank2]

Posted: 1/3/08 at 10:35pm

I actually think that Jerry has a VERY healthy ego for somebody that has achieved his level of success.

[frontrowcentre2]

Posted: 1/4/08 at 1:54am

As Broadway ego's go, Herman's is small and tasteful.

I watched in shock as LA CAGE won Best score in 1984 and yes, at the time I perceived his speech to be slam against Sondheim (and a bit maybe at Kander and Ebb.)

But... time heals everything. SUNDAY got the Pulitzer, and is still regarded as an importrant piece. LA CAGE has had less of a life after the Broadway run and tour ended, and was all but done in by the lacklustre revival.

The big loss is that LA CAGE is likely the last Herman score to reach Broadway and how I wish he had done at least 3 or 4 more.

[best12bars]

Posted: 1/4/08 at 8:56am

I got news for you... La Cage was not a dark horse. It was a HUGE hit and very much in the running for all awards.

Sunday in the Park had JUST opened. I think it barely made the cutoff date for the Tonys... by only a day. It received both raves and very mixed reviews. It was not a blockbuster. There had been very little of it seen or heard before Tony night when the cast performed "Sunday" (leaving me and a large group I was watching it with in tears).

It was depressing to me that La Cage swept the awards... but it wasn't surprising at all. And it wasn't a dark horse by any stretch of the imagination.

[nmartin]

Posted: 1/4/08 at 9:24am

Best, thanks for posting what I've been thinking since this thread began. It was no surpirse to me that La Cage took best score and best musical. Nor was it a surprise that Chita won over Peters.

[doodlenyc]

Posted: 1/4/08 at 10:09am

besty is right as usual...La Cage was expected to take the awards it did...I remember being glad that Sunday at least took the design awards. It had just opened to very mixed reviews, including for the score...most disliked the second act.
I love Sunday as much as any Sondheim fan, and I too wept when I got my first glimpse that night with the company singing "Sunday". I never saw anything so beautiful in the theater.
There was NO WAY that Bernadette was going to win over Chita, even though Chita was in a flop, it was a great performance and it was her time...the tony voters couldnt wait to give her the award. I do think Dot was Bernadette's best performance that I've seen, but that is the way the cookie crumbles. The same thing happened to her a few years later with Song and Dance, mediocre show, great performance and the tony voters couldnt WAIT to give her the award. Noone else had a chance that year, imo.


All that said, I remember thinking Herman's remark was very bitchy, tho he was in the moment and I think he is a nice man, and Sondheim seems okay with it...and it was nothing compared to John Napier's acceptance speech a few years later!

I give him a pass on this, a'la the Spring Awakening boys...too excited to edit their speeches. After all, he'd been waiting to win for 20 years.

[jv92]

Posted: 1/5/08 at 11:24pm

Also (more defense for Mr. Herman)...

When Frank Rich brought it up in a Times article for the seven millionth time, Herman wrote a letter in response to it praising Sondheim, saying he didn't mean it that way, etc. The man likes Sondheim. The man didn't mean to hurt him, though I doubt Mr. Sondheim's ego was all that bruised. He had five Tonys sitting at his desk plus all the kudos you could ask for. Mr. Herman had one and was considered before La Cage slightly washed up.
By the way, does everyone remember that ovation Chita got? Besides Kander, Ebb, Herman and Liza pratically standing on their chairs (I think Liza did) even old Steve stood up after his beloved Bernadette lost. She deserved it, alright.

[wonderfulwizard11]

Posted: 1/6/08 at 12:00am

I've seen the clip of Chita winning, and Liza was overjoyed that she won. It's adorable.

[ray-andallthatjazz86]

Posted: 1/6/08 at 12:54am

I don't think people are debating whether Chita deserved A Tony. They're just saying that she didn't deserve it for this specific show, especially when Peters offered such a sublime, perfect performance as Dot. Either way, it's done.
I think the Tonys ultimately prove to be a bit obsolete. LA CAGE had that awful stale revival, SUNDAY is considered one of the best examples of musical theater at its finest, most sophisticated.

[JohnBoy2]

Posted: 1/6/08 at 2:19am

Well, all I know is I hate Sonheim tunes and love Herman tunes, so, he can say whatever he wants. I remember that Tony speech well, and I suppose it came from the fact that all you head about was the wonderous Sondheim. Meanwhile, Herman has a big fat hit on his hands, and that was like, nothing.

[Dollypop]

Posted: 1/6/08 at 10:13am

I spent almost an hour on the phone with Jerry Herman when I interviewed him for this site. He was a humble, genuine person. His great influence was Iriving Berlin and Herman has certainly followed in his footsteps. Yes, Jerry Herman strongly believes in the "hummable" qualities of a showtune and sees it as a dying art form in today's world.

To show what a sweet and genuine man he is, he called me on New Year's Day to wish me a Happy New Year and to thank for for the article I'd written about him. I've written about 30 pieces for BWW and I can count on one hand the people who have taken the time to thank me for my efforts.

Jerry Herman has a very special place in my heart.

[jv92]

Posted: 1/6/08 at 2:46pm

Mine too, Dolly. You come out of Mame, Dolly, La Cage and so on feeling great. That's a wonderful thing to do. Still, Sondheim deserved that 1984 Tony, as did Sunday.

[best12bars]

Posted: 1/7/08 at 7:33pm

Wow something's up with the database on BWW. It's showing up that I posted, but my post is "invisible."

Weird!

[best12bars]

Posted: 1/7/08 at 7:33pm

Okay... I'll post my thoughts AGAIN, then.


Sorry to regurgitate this thread, but I'd like to add one comment in hindsight...

Sondheim's music and lyrics (and subject matter and his "theatre" in general) take a while to digest. That is why it was a mistake to rush this show in, four seconds before the cutoff date for the awards that year.

He gives you theatre that, like a fine wine, needs some time to be fully appreciated. He doesn't want to throw it in your face, have you tap your toes for two hours, and leave the theatre smiling, happy, and looking for the next "thing" in your life.

He wants you to think about what you just saw... for days... years even. For life, possibly.

Looking back now, I can say that both Bernadette and Mandy gave the performances of their careers. It was perfect casting and perfect roles, created for them, by them, and with their specific traits and talents in mind. Every time I watch the DVD I am reminded of how special and rare that was.

And it's hard to imagine them not winning Tonys for their work. But the timing wasn't right. And a huge part of "opinions" is timing. WHEN an audience sees something. That's part of what makes art such a living thing and a crap shoot.

So, you leave a Sondheim show with as many questions as answers... you leave partially fulfilled BUT searching for the ultimate fulfillment and meaning inside yourself.

Does that make Jerry Herman's "immediate artistic gratification theatre" any less relevant or important? I say NO. It's just as important to tap your toes... enjoying art, life, music and lyrics of the moment. Right then.

Herman = Seize the moment and enjoy life for all its worth
Sondheim = Absorb the moment and let it change your life

Herman's timing, with that show (which was very controversial in its day), was right on the money.

[jemjeb2]

Posted: 1/8/08 at 3:00pm

He seems modest in his autobiography. I love his music and he seems very sweet (not even remotely bitchy - in a business full of bitches!). I don't think he bashed Sondheim - just made a case for their being a place for shows like "Mame" "Dolly" and yes, "La Cage", as well as a Sondheim musical

[nealb1]

Posted: 1/8/08 at 3:07pm

Jemjeb2.......perfectly said!