Michael Lee Brown is SUBLIME -- but DEH, the show...?- Page 2

[haterobics]

Posted: 8/24/17 at 1:37pm

So, the people who think DEH is flawed ALSO think it is flawed if Evan is played by MLB, Colton, Noah, or Taylor? Who'd've thought?

[MyLife]

Posted: 8/24/17 at 1:50pm

I too was told by several people that I must have seen DEH on an off night because I had such negative opinions about it afterwards. I really don't think that's it. I think there are plenty of parts in the show to detest that are part of the show itself and independent of any singular performance.

Maybe I saw In Transit on a rare "on night" because I liked it so much more than DEH...

[bdn223]

Posted: 8/24/17 at 2:04pm

Bibliot

I am not saying that a show must have a likable protagonist, I am saying a show should call a spade a spade and an unlikable protagonist/anti-hero must face the consequences for his/her actions.

Sweeney Todd accidentally kills his wife, the reason he started killing in the first place, and is then killed by Tobey. Natasha is ruined and almost dies, only to be saved by Pierre. Hamilton is historical fiction, but Aaron Burr was the reasoning for the 12th amendment, which in turn forced him out of the Vice Presidency. Then after that Thomas Jefferson tried to have Burr convicted for Treason.....so yeah I'd consider that resolution. Diana in Next to Normal leaves her family as she realizes the toll her illness has taken on them. Phantom looses Christine and is forced to flee. In the original story dies loveless and alone, which is a cruel fate as love is his sole motivation. Harold Hill is arrested. The Emcee is killed by the Nazi's. Jonas (Leap of Faith) finds the error of his ways after he falls in love with Marla and finds compassion for Jake leaving the revival business for a true believer. Dewey is fired for impersonating a teacher. Frank goes looses everyone he loves then goes jail (Catch Me If You Can). 

Evan.....looses the girl? He doesn't get the scholarship? The Murphy family are the one's who ultimately face the consequences of Evan's actions, not him. 

 

The only musical one can actually argue does not have a resolution for its unlikable protagonists is Follies, which simply ends with  Buddy and Sally, and Phyllis and Ben, simply leaving the theater and moving on with their lives. The difference is that "life happens and its pointless to dwell on the ghosts of the past" is very much the point of the show. 

Updated On: 8/24/17 at 02:04 PM

[Bibliot]

Posted: 8/24/17 at 2:13pm

I personally would not see this show without Ben Platt and Rachel Bay Jones playing the leads. Well, maybe I would at sub-$80 a ticket, but not at its current prices. They warranted their Tony wins, IMO. I don't think it will travel very well - although perhaps it will on the strength of its cast album, which I think is the first Broadway soundtrack to debut Billboard top 10. Mostly I think this show's success is on the strength of the acting by Platt, Jones (or Bay Jones?), and Mike Faist + several catchy big songs. Otherwise it's very mainstream, and of course, as we can see with the demise of Great Comet, a beautiful and innovative production, it's mainstream that fills seats.

Updated On: 8/24/17 at 02:13 PM

[bdn223]

Posted: 8/24/17 at 2:16pm

I think much of the shows success is that Ben has found a way to play Evan as extremely likable and self deprecating, so we don't notice his deep character flaws. As such I think this show will very much live or die by its Evan's as it is that performance that keeps the show enjoyable.

[Bibliot]

Posted: 8/24/17 at 2:17pm

Looked it up. As far as the music: DEH cast recording debuted at #8. Hamilton had debuted at #12.

DEH had the highest music debut since 1961 (Camelot).

The only cast recordings to make it into the top 10 in the last 50 years have been Evan Hansen, Hamilton, Book of Mormon, and Hair.

[GeorgeandDot]

Posted: 8/24/17 at 2:18pm

I agree, bdn223.  Evan Hansen definitely should have been executed by the Murphys at the end of the show.

Kidding of course, but what other consequences should he face?  He hurt people that he cared about and lost them as well as his scholarship.  He's a 17 year old who messed up.  He thought he was doing something good for that family.  He's a good person.  There's 0 indication that he lied to get into Zoe's pants.  He lied because he cared about her and her family and saw how broken they were and thought that he might be able to give them some kind thoughts about their deceased son.  He shouldn't face public shaming for that.  Honestly, if you walked out of that show thinking that an anxiety-ridden, depressed, possibly suicidal child with good intentions deserved public shaming, then there's something really wrong with you.

Updated On: 8/24/17 at 02:18 PM

[poisonivy2]

Posted: 8/24/17 at 2:23pm

This "Evan should be punished" issue gets on my last nerve. In order for that to happen, you'd have to believe that Connor's parents and Zoe are unforgiving, spiteful people. That goes against everything we've learned about them in the evening. Part of the tension of DEH is Evan's realization that he's really hurting some wonderful people like his mom and the Murphy's. That guilt is at the emotional core of the musical. But the Murphy;'s are not going to put Evan on blast. That would ruin all the internal consistency of the musical.

[haterobics]

Posted: 8/24/17 at 2:25pm

bdn223 said: "Sweeney Todd accidentally kills his wife, the reason he started killing in the first place, and is then killed by Tobey. Natasha is ruined and almost dies, only to be saved by Pierre. Hamilton is historical fiction, but Aaron Burr was the reasoning for the 12th amendment, which in turn forced him out of the Vice Presidency. Then after that Thomas Jefferson tried to have Burr convicted for Treason.....so yeah I'd consider that resolution. Diana in Next to Normal leaves her family as she realizes the toll her illness has taken on them. Phantom looses Christine and is forced to flee. In the original story dies loveless and alone, which is a cruel fate as love is his sole motivation. Harold Hill is arrested. The Emcee is killed by the Nazi's. Jonas (Leap of Faith) finds the error of his ways after he falls in love with Marla and finds compassion for Jake leaving the revival business for a true believer. Dewey is fired for impersonating a teacher. Frank goes looses everyone he loves then goes jail (Catch Me If You Can)."

Spoiler alert!

[Bibliot]

Posted: 8/24/17 at 2:27pm

GeorgeandDot, i just wanted to say that I always enjoy your posts. Articulate, informed, and fair.

[SonofRobbieJ]

Posted: 8/24/17 at 2:29pm

I had a really complicated reaction to this show.  I recognize the craft put into it...and I recognize the excellence of the performance...and I sat with the show for a few days before finally realizing I don't buy it.  And it's because of a personal history with a troubled young woman who, for whatever reason, made up the fact that she was raped.  This was in college and she and I (along with another friend whom I've known for 25 years) were inseparable.  And we took care of her on nights when things were too rough.  We moved our lives around her and her trauma.  We fought back against a guy who went a little too far one night and gave her flashbacks.  And then it came out that it never happened.  She was never raped.  She ended up in the mental hospital and had to drop out of school.  The devastation to our 19 year old psyches was brutal.  She clearly had demons...of which sort I just don't know.  This was back in the early 90s when googling people was not a possibility.  Having lived up close and personal to a really f*cked up situation, DEH didn't have a note of truth to it when it came to the end.  It doesn't matter whether he lied to get into her pants or not...the devastation of this particular lie for that family would be...Jesus H. Christ, I find it unbearable to think about.  

[bdn223]

Posted: 8/24/17 at 2:34pm

GeorgeandDot said: "I agree.  Evan Hansen definitely should have been executed by the Murphys at the end of the show.

Kidding of course, but what other consequences should he face?  He hurt people that he cared about and lost them as well as his scholarship.  He's a 17 year old who messed up.  He thought he was doing something good for that family.  He's a good person.  There's 0 indication that he lied to get into Zoe's pants.  He lied because he cared about her and her family and saw how broken they were and thought that he might be able to give them some kind thoughts about their deceased son.  He shouldn't face public shaming for that.  Honestly, if you walked out of that show thinking that an anxiety-ridden, depressed, possibly suicidal child with good intentions deserved public shaming, then there's something really wrong with you.

 

"

Or maybe I am a person who as a teenager was anxiety ridden, clinically depressed, and suicidal....and had the face the consequences for my actions (Lets just say I almost cost someone their job, due to my mental deficiencies)...

 

Jared blatantly points out to Evan that his lie is the only reason Zoe is even talking to him. He is well aware that the only reason he is in a relationship with her is because of the lie and he is OK with that. He only tells them the truth after they are blamed for Connor's death, because in his desperation to keep the illusion alive he releases his note that everyone believes to be Connor's suicide note. It would be one thing for him to simply tell the truth it gets to this point, and blame it on his mental disability, but by releasing it he is showing it it only about his own selfish nature as he has already hurt his mother, Alana, and Jared.  The Murphy's don't even confront him for his actions once he admits to the lie, they simply leave the stage distraught and in disgust. He then leaves and is consoled by his mother, saying she will always be there for him with So Big/So Small. I am not saying he should of had to face the angry online mob, but someone/anyone needed to reprimand him for the pain he caused.

 

A 17 year old, let alone one coping with mental illness should not be able to do the self-reflection the plot infers Evan does....and if he is capable of that self-reflection he should have had the metal fortitude to not let the lie get that out of hand in the first place.

Updated On: 8/24/17 at 02:34 PM

[SonofRobbieJ]

Posted: 8/24/17 at 2:38pm

'In order for that to happen, you'd have to believe that Connor's parents and Zoe are unforgiving, spiteful people."

If that is what you believe...then the show has absolutely failed in portraying the depth and horror of the lie and subsequent actions to bolster that lie.  In what possible world could the Murphys be considered anything negative if they demanded Evan face some kind of consequences???   

Updated On: 8/24/17 at 02:38 PM

[herewegoabc]

Posted: 8/24/17 at 2:44pm

I've seen every combination of Heidi/Evan except Garrett/Ben.

To me, Garrett plays an almost identical preformance to Rachel. Much more so than MLB and Colton do to Ben. She uses the same intonationsize, line delivery, etc. Garrett had great chemistry with both understudies during So Big, So Small, especially dusing the hugging part. Her face really sold the emotions during that part. The main difference between her and Rachel,  to me, were the parts where Heidi and Evan fight. 

That being said, I prefer MLB's Evan out of the three. He cries even more than Ben does, starting all the way during the end of For Forever and more randomly throughout the show. By the time it gets to Good for You, though, he's completely unhinged, and the snot and tears he manages to produce during Words Fail is... well, a freaking ton. 

I honestly do not understand why they waited so long to put him on as Evan. He's phenomenal. He is performing more than Colton these days, but I don't know if that's just a catch up game or what. Regardless, if you get the chance to see him, go. 

[mar6411]

Posted: 8/24/17 at 2:51pm

SonofRobbieJ said: "DEH didn't have a note of truth to it when it came to the end.  It doesn't matter whether he lied to get into her pants or not...the devastation of this particular lie for that family would be...Jesus H. Christ, I find it unbearable to think about."

^^^

This!!!  And your subsequent response.  (And also your postings on the DEH casting thread - I'm a fan)

Thank you.

 

 

[greenifyme2]

Posted: 8/24/17 at 2:54pm

Is MLB on tonight by any chance?

[VintageSnarker]

Posted: 8/24/17 at 3:09pm

Seperite said: "Thanks for the link...it is indeed validating, I suppose, to hear some criticism, but their only gripe is with the moral message of the show. That isn't what bothered me...it's the relentless melodrama from first note to last that I found overwhelming and stifling. To my mind, any musical/drama/movie/book has to take you on a journey that reaches occasional (or an ultimate) emotional peaks in order to be effective.  But when you're at a level of unbridled emotional intensity from beginning to end, it quickly loses its impact, and just becomes cloying. It was all just too much...too overwrought. Looking for any write-up of the show that might have expressed a similar sentiment

I don't know. I cried for almost the entire run time of The Color Purple and I loved the experience of seeing that show. But then it's also funny and entertaining with characters like Harpo, Sofia, Shug, and the Church Ladies. I'm not too familiar with DEH but I've gathered that the Will Roland character is supposed to serve as a kind of comic relief. Did you feel like that wasn't effective enough to break up the melodrama?

[Bibliot]

Posted: 8/24/17 at 3:12pm

I don't think there's that much melodrama. It's hilarious, actually. There are only two big tearjerker numbers - the big reveal, and the mom/son abandonment memories, which Bay Jones really sells.

[Margo319]

Posted: 8/24/17 at 3:29pm

Great show, odd ending.  But, I think you saw it with several understudies (unfortunate with this production in particular since both Tony winners were gone), on an off night for them, AND you simply did not like it.  I am glad you liked Michael though, he should stay on as Evan until January.  

Updated On: 8/24/17 at 03:29 PM

[Audrey33]

Posted: 8/24/17 at 3:29pm

Bibliot said: "Looked it up. As far as the music: DEH cast recording debuted at #8. Hamilton had debuted at #12.

DEH had the highest music debut since 1961 (Camelot).

The only cast recordings to make it into the top 10 in the last 50 years have been Evan Hansen, Hamilton, Book of Mormon, and Hair."

To clarify though, Hamilton sold more copies in its first week, it just had more competition as it released in September which is a more popular time of year for albums than February or whenever it was that DEH released. Today - 2 years after release - Hamilton is #22 on the Billboard chart whereas DEH has fallen out of the top 200. So it's not exactly comparable.

[GeorgeandDot]

Posted: 8/24/17 at 3:49pm

Also I'm amazed at the sympathy for Jared who I find absolutely despicable in every way.  It's odd that you would claim that he's the "honest" one and the one that's not the antagonist when he literally says that he's make Connor Murphy merchandise to make a profit off of his death.  I don't think you should really be siding with him.  Evan is cornered into a sh*tty situation while trying to do some sort of good, while Jared just assumes that it's to get into Zoe's pants because he's a total creep.  Evan likes Zoe, but that's not really the reason why he's lying.  After all the Murphys approached Evan.  Evan didn't want to be part of it, but what is he supposed to do or say?  He was almost forced into lying.

[broadwaynerdnewbie]

Posted: 8/24/17 at 3:50pm

I think in the end Zoe and her family also really wanted to believe what Evan was saying because in that made up world they didn't have to reconcile who their son and brother really were. I think in the end they'd have a hard time forgiving Evan but I do think to some extent forgive him (it was never stated that the parents forgave him I don't think) because on some level Zoe was right they needed that lie to get closure.

I have a sister who is a lot like Connor and I dunno I just understand the families desire to believe this version of their son to be true that Evan gave them because you just want to believe.

[SonofRobbieJ]

Posted: 8/24/17 at 4:00pm

'I just understand the families desire to believe this version of their son to be true that Evan gave them because you just want to believe.'

That's what makes what he does even more horrendous.  We are asked to watch this story through the eyes of Evan.  Totally interesting choice.  But flip the story. What if they chose to tell the story from the Murphy's perspective.  What does Evan become in that story?  

Also:

'Evan didn't want to be part of it, but what is he supposed to do or say?  He was almost forced into lying.'

How do you take the point of view that he bears no responsibility for this lie.  If he made a rash decision in the moment, fine.  But everything that spins out from that moment because SOLELY his responsibility.  He destroys that family.  There is no where where the emotional damage done to that family after all this is something they can brush past...the way the ending of the show brushes past it.  

[Itonlytakesajourney]

Posted: 8/24/17 at 4:02pm

Jared is the closest thing to a villain in the story. How can anyone think Evan is a bad person when Jared is there insulting and belittling Evan since the start of the show? He frequently proves himself to be more than a snarky little teenager whenever he mentions he wants to profit off of Connor's death; actively making fun of and berating Evan, etc. Nobody in this show is innocent at all, and Evan is not a villain for being a mentally ill kid with social anxiety. 

[Seperite]

Posted: 8/25/17 at 4:41am

Surprised to hear all the criticism levied at the lack of comeuppance. Haven't we all seen enough Disney movies, ABC after school specials, action movies, and their morally equivalent parallels in the world of Broadway to not need yet another story where the good people prevail and evil fails? I personally liked the fact that EH hatched and executed a diabolical and deranged plot and (largely) got away with it. I don't need to have my own morals validated by seeing him get punished -- it's art, meant to make you think, and meant to move you, but not necessarily to make you feel all warm and fuzzy inside.

The story is absurdly unbelievable, and that may have contributed to why I couldn't get emotionally invested...the idea that even disconnected parents could be so easily duped made suspension of disbelief difficult, and the many subpar performances didn't make it any easier. The motivation for the big reveal seemed forced and unearned -- I was hoping for a much bigger, grander, and smarter event to topple the incredible enterprise that had been built; breaking down in a moment of stress just seemed like lazy writing. And, of course, the Murphy parents essentially walking off in a huff, and Zoe reacting by effectively saying "well, that was weird...let's go for a walk in the orchard!" was a deeply dissatisfying denoument. For writers who clearly put a lot of thought into creating a deeply complex character with far more heft than you expect to find in a musical, it just seemed like they ran out of steam or ideas as to how to wrap the whole thing up. It left me dissatisfied not because he doesn't get punished, but because the conclusion felt like a throwaway -- not nearly as thoughtful or intelligent as a piece as carefully constructed as this deserved.


But perhaps the story can be taken as a metaphor -- it's not about socially anxious kids and grieving parents per se, but about human beings' willingness to cling to even preposterous stories if they make us feel better about the difficulties we encounter in our lives. (You could argue that that's what impels people to continue to be religious or superstitious, even in an age of widespread education, knowledge and enlightenment.) The Trump phenomenon is something of a manifestation of this -- a huckster and charlatan comes along and, tapping into people's romantic associations with nostalgia, weaves fanciful tales about how he's going to make everyone's lives better by invoking, and promising to bring back glorified images of an incredible past. A large segment of the population recognizes that the emperor is not actually wearing any clothes, but the rest of society turns a blind eye, willfully suspending skepticism and the evident reasons for disbelief because buying into the story enables you to push your problems away and feel so very good. The storyteller, who may have had innocuous or even magnanimous motivations at the start, begins to get addicted to the newfound power and endless adulation his fibbing has gotten him. He finds it impossible to stop, until it all comes crashing down.

 

Updated On: 8/25/17 at 04:41 AM