Musicals that have aged poorly with time? — Page 6

QueenAlice said: "Gaveston, I think you are being generous when you give 40 as the cut off age for getting the references in LIL ABNER. I think you would have to have been alive in the 1950s for any of that to resonate. Someone who is 40 would barely remember John Hughes films.



"

Well, okay, I'll grant one has to remember the 1960s. I first saw LI'L ABNER in about 1966 (I was 12 and had only a vague memory of the 1950s) and it made perfect sense to me. The LI'L ABNER comic strip was still being written by Al Capp and running in the daily paper.

***

Kad is right that a 17-year-old me had little idea what Yvonne de Carlo was singing about in "I'm Still Here". I did laugh at "First you're another sloe-eyed vamp/ Then someone's mother, then you're camp" because I took it as a reference to Yvonne de Carlo playing Lily Munster. (If Sondheim was indeed thinking of Joan Crawford, that may not be what he intended at all.)

Hell, I didn't even know what "sloe-eyed" meant. But my ignorance did not keep from loving the song and the show. It just sent me to reference books to look up "Brenda Frazier".

***

I think some of ya'll are taking the ending of MY FAIR LADY too literally. Eliza has stood up to Higgins and proved herself at least his match in "Without You". Higgins has realized his error in "I've Grown Accustomed to Her Face".

By the time she returns, they are both well aware that the power of their respective positions has changed. And Eliza usually laughs at "Where are those damn slippers?!" So I think we should appreciate the irony in that scene and not assume Eliza has returned to play chamber maid.

Granted, it's a wholly American ending--"Love conquers all"--rather than Shaw's British ending--"Class conquers all"--but then it's an American musical, despite its setting.

Updated On: 3/29/16 at 07:43 PM

OlBlueEyes said: "If you haven't noticed any fascists lately you haven't been watching the GOP debates. Or Putin in Russia. Or the so-called "Islamic State". (Please note I wrote fascist with a small "f".)

The real fascists murdered millions of innocents. Some might think that you are using that label in a way that cheapens it when you use it to describe a clown and a would-be dictator forced to observe the trappings of democracy.

I have read that Oklahoma was a big favorite of servicemen during the war because it reminded them of what they were risking their lives to protect.

For me the Jud character makes Oklahoma my least favorite of the big five. I empathize with his lonely pining for the goddess that he can never have, and his envy of all those whose lives are superior to his. I regret that his tormentors leave the stage as hero and heroine, while he leaves as a corpse.



"

Well, if you're going to be so literal and PC about it, the real "Fascists" (capital F now) were a bunch of Italian clowns who couldn't defeat the ragtag Greek army. Mussolini was a tinpot dictator elevated only by Hitler's odd admiration for him.

But at this point, I have no idea why we are discussing this.

***

Your affinity for Jud might be seen as a sign of sociopathy. Yes, most of us can empathize with Jud's loneliness and heartbreak, but by the time he plots to stab Curley in the eye with his trick kaleidoscope, most of us get off the pity train. In the climax, he accidentally falls on his own knife while trying to murder Curly, so his death will strike almost all audience members as poetic justice.

Obviously, you're entitled to a different reading of the last scene; but I don't see what either of our views has to do with the play being "dated" or "corny".

Gaveston, I think we can appreciate without embracing the flawed romanticism of some of these old movies and shows because we know that when we watch (or read) GWTW we are not oblivious to 10 Years a Slave. As I have said, though, to me that's not the issue. Most folks don't want to watch offensive things, whether they are fed to us straight up or with "comment." It's not about context; it's about interest, and with astonishingly few exceptions we are not interested in musicals that portray ugly things. Is that a defect? Dunno.

I think that The Book of Mormon will age very fast. Its isn't dated now, but it will be soon enough. There are lyrics about iPhones, Star Wars (mostly Star Wars), and The Lion King. Book of Mormon will stay open for a long time, but when it closes, it likely won't ever get a revival due to the jokes only making sense to this generation. Maybe there could be some re-writes, though.

This entire phenomenon (jokes and lines only making sense to one generation) might also apply to In The Heights.

I also think that Spring Awakening, Hairspray, and Wicked will never age. I know this is random, so bear with me. Due to SA and Hairspray being written as period pieces, they can't age. And Wicked takes place in a made up place in an unknown time period (unless you count 'Before Dorothy Dropped In'.

you are a lot closer to the Mitchell text than I am. I read it once and done.

And while I obviously understand your point about the Sondheim/Prince, let's not forget the track record financially.

I do think that "small anachronisms" can be viewed as quaint (the sitcoms on endless repeat on cable), but the real problems in terms of viability with re-engineering occur when the offensiveness is organic and pervasive. I gave the example of Amos and Andy-we don't see that on even the most remote cable network.Maybe someone actually DID burn those.

OlBlueEyes said: "Carousel. I don't know. Carousel is performed a lot, due mostly to the score - "If I Loved You" and the Bench Scene - "Soliloquy" - and all the other well known songs that just seem to slide into place at the proper time. It may be one of icecream's period pieces. One you put you characters into small town New England at that point in time, you're pretty much stuck with the re-creation of their social mores.

Strange to having a lot of objection to Oklahoma, which really is dated in time as the second modern American musical after Show Boat, but that came into my head first. The plot is just a silly melodrama with the handsome young cowboy competing against the dark, evil and lonely farm hand for the fair Laurey.

It's not much of a contest. Surprising to me that a man as decent and compassionate as Hammerstein would create such a one dimensional villain and give him no chance at redemption.

That is not what dates it for me. What does it the painfully corny triangles of Ado Annie, Will Parker, and Ali Hakim. I literally can not sit through it. Clearly, Oklahoma -- if you compare it to Show Boat or Porgy and Bess -- never had much of a story; without that score, no one would even remember that 100 performance flop from 1943.

"

QueenAlice said: "I've seen a couple of productions of ANNIE GET YOUR GUN that were well done and made the corny old script and politics work (not the Bernadette Peters revival which drove me crazy). And ANNIE GET YOUR GUN is still performed all the time. So audiences must largely be responding to it still. guess the answer to the question is -- if the show is no longer being performed regularly anymore - its at the very least a product of its time, and possibly has 'aged poorly.'



Certainly we almost never see revivals of a lot of the shows of the 60s and 70s -- AINT SUPPOSED TO DIE A NATURAL DEATH, APPLAUSE, RUNAWAYS, RAISIN, WHAT MAKES SAMMY RUN, HALLELUJAH BABY, etc. I can only imagine its because these haven't aged 'well.'

I agree with you wother the exception of Hallelujah! Baby! I believe the reason the show was not a bigger hit was because the script needed work, but the message of the show and most of the numbers have not dated at all. I think HB has a great, under appreciated score and could still be a hit if someone could improve the book...of course a couple of numbers could be deleted, e.g., the witches number.

"

Jarethan said: "OlBlueEyes said: "Carousel. I don't know. Carousel is performed a lot, due mostly to the score - "If I Loved You" and the Bench Scene - "Soliloquy" - and all the other well known songs that just seem to slide into place at the proper time. It may be one of icecream's period pieces. One you put you characters into small town New England at that point in time, you're pretty much stuck with the re-creation of their social mores.

Strange to having a lot of objection to Oklahoma, which really is dated in time as the second modern American musical after Show Boat, but that came into my head first. The plot is just a silly melodrama with the handsome young cowboy competing against the dark, evil and lonely farm hand for the fair Laurey.

It's not much of a contest. Surprising to me that a man as decent and compassionate as Hammerstein would create such a one dimensional villain and give him no chance at redemption.

That is not what dates it for me. What does it the painfully corny triangles of Ado Annie, Will Parker, and Ali Hakim. I literally can not sit through it. Clearly, Oklahoma -- if you compare it to Show Boat or Porgy and Bess -- never had much of a story; without that score, no one would even remember that 100 performance flop from 1943.

"
I agree with you, as I think I tried to say in one of my posts. Although Oklahoma is often called the breakthrough musical that integrated the songs with the plot, it is sandwiched between Show Boat and Carousel, which had much more substance to their stories. The thin plot of Oklahoma is really just for connecting the songs together.

I guess that Ado Annie was created because they needed a subplot and they maybe thought a little low humor, as in Shakespeare, would appeal to the masses.



"

Shaw agreed to the ending in the sense of not bothering to make a fuss about it, but he wasn't a huge fan of it (https://books.google.com.au/books?id=if7763FoMmkC&lpg=PP1&pg=PA141#v=onepage&q&f=false). In fairness, that doesn't necessarily prove the 'happy' ending to be bad, although I dislike it myself.

The idea that SHOW BOAT has a better book or a more serious story than OKLAHOMA! is ludicrous! SHOW BOAT, much as I may love it, was a prototype that wasn't fully realized for another 16 years.

Yes, there's a comic subplot in OKLAHOMA!, but one feels compelled to point out there is also a comic subplot in CAROUSEL. And jokes about how Mr. Snow stinks of fish are no more sophisticated; in fact, they are significantly LESS so, since Will and Ado Annie do address ideas such as gender roles and the coming of progress to the American West.

Why are Will and Annie any more "corny" than Nathan and Adelaide? I swear it's only a bias by urban viewers.

***

As most here know, published versions of PYGMALION at least USED to come complete with Shaw's rather lengthy essay on how Eliza couldn't possibly wind up with Higgins and how she will marry Freddy instead (as Higgins suggests in all versions of play and musical). I don't know when this was added to the printed edition.

The idea that SHOW BOAT has a better book or a more serious story than OKLAHOMA! is ludicrous.

Oklahoma a musical with more gravitas then Show Boat? Stunning. Perhaps we are talking about a different Show Boat, one that doesn't deal with miscegenation, oppression of African Americans by wealthy white business owners, desertion of a pregnant wife, gambling, self-destruction through alcoholism, enduring and loyal friendships, and forgiveness to one who has done you a great wrong.

But then in Oklahoma we get that good lookin' cowpoke fixin' to take his best girl to the Sunday social in his new rig, after first makin' a dang fool out of that slow-witted and lonely farmhand who thinks that he's man enough to be courtin' her.

And I forget the songs in Oklahoma that surpass Broadway's greatest anthem. When Sinatra sang "Ol' Man River" at Carnegie Hall in a benefit concert for the NAACP, Dr. Martin Luther King, Jr. wept.

But he probably would have had the same reaction if the song had been "Kansas City" or "Many a New Day" (which songs I like).

One of Paul Robeson's YouTube performances has drawn 3.3 million views, and one by William Warfield over a million.

Oklahoma! is often cited as the beginning of modern musical theater. But Peter Filichia, a long-time theater critic, said, “I think ‘Show Boat’ is more significant.”

“Show Boat” was a new thing: a musical play. Story came first, and it was serious — a racially charged tale of discrimination’s ills.

Songs arose organically out of the story and advanced it. Blacks were portrayed sympathetically and as fully drawn characters.

http://www.investors.com/news/management/leaders-and-success/hammerstein-changed-musicals-with-oklahoma-and-show-boat/

Sorry I missed the sociopath reference.

There isn't a whole lot of humor on this board, at least humor that isn't at the expenses of someone else, so when I find something funny it goes right past me.

Nice to see so much interest in and knowledge of the early musicals that started this Broadway phenomenon.



Nick (Spoken): What the hell are musicals?
Nostradamus (Spoken):
It appears to be a play where the dialogue stops
And the plot is conveyed through song
Nick (Spoken): Through song?
Nostradamus: Yes.
Nick: Wait, so an actor is saying his lines and out of nowhere he just starts singing?
Nostradamus: Yes.
Nick:
Well that is the
(Singing) Stupidest thing that I have ever heard
You're doing a play, got something to say
So you sing it?
It's absurd
Who on earth is going to sit there while an actor breaks into song
And what possible thought could the audience think
Other than "This is horribly wrong"

Updated On: 3/31/16 at 11:45 AM

...I did mean OK the show, Gaveston...



I think Oklahoma! has a better *constructed* book than Show Boat's where the mix of traditional musical comedy (especially in the original script--of course Show Boat has had 36 or so different scripts) feels quite awkward. I still personally prefer Show Boat (slightly) but...

As for Oklahoma! one issue I have with the Nunn revival (to which he *added* new dialogue--although perhaps it was taken from Green Grow the Lilacs) was he tried to play up the dark elements (the setting is almost a dustbowl). I admit the quick way Judd is gotten rid of and normality is restored always struck me as odd. Still, that NCU reconstruction of the original production that was filmed speaks volumes for the original production still playing well. I'd rather watch it than the Hugh/Nunn DVD anyday.