Ragtime without Race- Page 2
Ragtime without Race
#25'Blackface'
Posted: 7/17/09 at 2:10am
Excuse my ignorant, non-US perspective, and assuming Blackface means painting some cast members 'black' to appear..well black.. - how is this offensive?
"You can't overrate Bernadette Peters. She is such a genius. There's a moment in "Too Many Mornings" and Bernadette doing 'I wore green the last time' - It's a voice that is just already given up - it is so sorrowful. Tragic. You can see from that moment the show is going to be headed into such dark territory and it hinges on this tiny throwaway moment of the voice." - Ben Brantley (2022)
"Bernadette's whole, stunning performance [as Rose in Gypsy] galvanized the actors capable of letting loose with her. Bernadette's Rose did take its rightful place, but too late, and unseen by too many who should have seen it" Arthur Laurents (2009)
"Sondheim's own favorite star performances? [Bernadette] Peters in ''Sunday in the Park,'' Lansbury in ''Sweeney Todd'' and ''obviously, Ethel was thrilling in 'Gypsy.'' Nytimes, 2000
Updated On: 7/17/09 at 02:10 AM
#26'Blackface'
Posted: 7/17/09 at 2:26am^ Blackface was used in minstrelsy. White men would paint their faces black (and sometimes dress in drag) to "romanticize" plantation life. This is where many African-American stereotypes became popular. Although it was the most popular entertainment of its time (and in a way, the first truely "American" entertainment), minstrelsy and blackface are considered highly offensive today (even though it is often refrenced in pop culture and the cinema). Minstrelsy is also one of the most influential elements of the musical theater. If you want to learn more about blackface and minstrelsy (and its sexual implications) I recommend Eric Lott's Love and Theft.
#27'Blackface'
Posted: 7/17/09 at 2:30amhttp://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=1919122
"This thread reads like a series of White House memos." — Mister Matt
TheatreDiva90016
Broadway Legend Joined: 4/10/04
#28'Blackface'
Posted: 7/17/09 at 3:36am
"I find it as a different Matter. when I did the show we didn't use yellow face make up. we used cake face make up."
WTF?
No was talking about actually painting your face yellow...
"TheatreDiva90016 - another good reason to frequent these boards less."<<>>
“I hesitate to give this line of discussion the validation it so desperately craves by perpetuating it, but the light from logic is getting further and further away with your every successive post.” <<>>
-whatever2
Urban
Broadway Legend Joined: 2/27/05
#29'Blackface'
Posted: 7/17/09 at 7:34amThis thread reminds me of the particularly 'interestingly cast' version of 'West Side Story' I saw the other week. Even if one as to ignore the fact it had the most lily white Sharks (with a couple of token Asians actors), the truly worst thing was having having sit through all their hammed up Latino accent which I swear they could've only copied from a Speedy Gonzalez cartoon.
ggersten
Broadway Legend Joined: 5/11/06
#30Go for Diversity
Posted: 7/17/09 at 7:54amThe OP didn't say there were no African Americans at the school - only not in the drama world. Announcing Ragtime and a call for African American kids to audition - along with perhaps playing some of the songs over the P.A. might expand those who might come out for the show. Doing Ragtime could be a wonderful opportunity to expand the drama world at this school. Instead of trying to find ways to cast non-African Americans in African American roles in a show striving to talk about racial tolerance ("Till We Reach That Day") - try to find ways to get more African Americans involved. If there are obvious choices for a Sara and a Coalhouse, they can help recruit others to the show.
#31Go for Diversity
Posted: 7/17/09 at 8:50am
ggersten, makes a great suggestion. Perhaps, before you actually go out and buy the rights to Ragtime you could have an informational meeting to see what sort of interest there is among the African-American population. If no one shows up you could scrap the idea without having spent any money.
But I don't think the OP is reading this thread anymore. I suspect he's taken his ball and gone home.
"All our dreams can come true -- if we have the courage to pursue them." -- Walt Disney
We must have different Gods. My God said "do to others what you would have them do to you". Your God seems to have said "My Way or the Highway".
Fosse76
Broadway Legend Joined: 3/21/05
#32Go for Diversity
Posted: 7/17/09 at 9:52am
"Sorry, I misunderstood. I'm still bothered that a show which is obviously not appropriate for the student body is the popular choice amongst parents and faculty."
I don't find anything inappropriate in Ragtime that the student body can't handle.
"Excuse my ignorant, non-US perspective, and assuming Blackface means painting some cast members 'black' to appear..well black.. - how is this offensive?"
How is it NOT offensive? It is nothing more than playing stereotypes. There is absolutely no justification to ever appear on stage like that.
ggersten
Broadway Legend Joined: 5/11/06
#33Go for Diversity
Posted: 7/17/09 at 11:08amThere is justification to appear in blackface, if that is part of the show. I saw an amazing production entitled I believe "Three Black and Three White Minstrels" in Berkeley, um, a few decades ago. Blackface was used and discussed as to its inappropriateness as part of the production. It was at the Julia Morgan Theatre and besides the "history" lesson was just a gripping night of theatre.
#34Go for Diversity
Posted: 7/17/09 at 12:18pm
I don't find anything inappropriate in Ragtime that the student body can't handle.
Inappropriate in the sense that it's not a fitting show for the students available, not that the content was inappropriate. Although, I'm not sure how they intended to handle a white boy in blackface crying out the N-word.
Like a firework unexploded
Wanting life but never knowing how
Wanting life but never knowing how
#35Go for Diversity
Posted: 7/17/09 at 12:41pm
But unless you're doing a musical about Al Jolson, why would blackface ever occur to someone as acceptable?
Too bad the producers of the Al Jolson musical in London stated they would not be using blackface at all because they didn't want to offend anybody.
Nothing matters but knowing nothing matters. ~ Wicked
Everything in life is only for now. ~ Avenue Q
There is no future, there is no past. I live this moment as my last. ~ Rent
"He's a tramp, but I love him."
Everything in life is only for now. ~ Avenue Q
There is no future, there is no past. I live this moment as my last. ~ Rent
#36Go for Diversity
Posted: 7/17/09 at 3:21pmMinstrelsy is an ugly part of our cultural history, but it was so pervasive and popular that even black entertainers such as Bert Williams performed in blackface. What's really sad is that some tremendous entertainers such as Al Jolson and Eddie Cantor are not better known to us because their blackface acts (show-horned into many of their films) stigmatized the films as a whole. It's tough to even get your hands on some of those films now, and it's a real shame, because they 2 were some of the greatest comedians of the last century.
#37Go for Diversity
Posted: 7/17/09 at 4:41pm
Yeah I would go with another show.
My high school director really wanted to do the show. The school board wanted certain "language" changed to be more appropriate. He did not want to do that, because it would not have been how it was during that time... so new shows were picked.
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#38Go for Diversity
Posted: 7/17/09 at 6:34pm
"How is it NOT offensive? It is nothing more than playing stereotypes. There is absolutely no justification to ever appear on stage like that."
Well if it's done that way, and I guess at a high school level I guess that's what would happen.
I guess it would be hard not to see it as a joke, but still the premise of someone pretending to be black because there is no alternative doesn't seem offensive to me. So again for me (as people pointed out earlier) I see the offense just with the historical association..
"You can't overrate Bernadette Peters. She is such a genius. There's a moment in "Too Many Mornings" and Bernadette doing 'I wore green the last time' - It's a voice that is just already given up - it is so sorrowful. Tragic. You can see from that moment the show is going to be headed into such dark territory and it hinges on this tiny throwaway moment of the voice." - Ben Brantley (2022)
"Bernadette's whole, stunning performance [as Rose in Gypsy] galvanized the actors capable of letting loose with her. Bernadette's Rose did take its rightful place, but too late, and unseen by too many who should have seen it" Arthur Laurents (2009)
"Sondheim's own favorite star performances? [Bernadette] Peters in ''Sunday in the Park,'' Lansbury in ''Sweeney Todd'' and ''obviously, Ethel was thrilling in 'Gypsy.'' Nytimes, 2000
Updated On: 7/17/09 at 06:34 PM
#39Go for Diversity
Posted: 7/17/09 at 6:45pm
I guess it would be hard not to see it as a joke, but still the premise of someone pretending to be black because there is no alternative doesn't seem offensive to me.
There IS an alternative: pick another show.
"This thread reads like a series of White House memos." — Mister Matt
Jon
Broadway Legend Joined: 2/20/04
#40Go for Diversity
Posted: 7/17/09 at 7:02pmDoing RAGTIME with white actors wearing negro make-up makes as much sense as doing THE VAGINA MONOLOGUES with men in drag - an interesting but tasteless exercise in irony.
Broadway Legend Joined: 12/31/69
#41Go for Diversity
Posted: 7/17/09 at 7:52pm
Except NO ONE would be offended by men in drag- only by whites playing blacks. It's so deeply ingrained now that even Finian's Rainbow (which is a show about racism and is built around a white man "turning" black) is foregoing it for it's upcoming revival.
I find it fascinating.
And the "King and I" comparison is interesting too. I've never seen a single production of that show that didn't use Non-Asian actors playing Asian.
EganFan2
Broadway Star Joined: 9/8/04
#42Go for Diversity
Posted: 7/17/09 at 8:05pmGood for you for actually coming up with a concept. I fail to see how it would work as a vaudeville style show, though. I recently saw it and it was pretty much a drama. I agree that blackface would be a big mistake. Even if it was done way back when.
Phyllis Rogers Stone
Broadway Legend Joined: 9/16/07
#43Go for Diversity
Posted: 7/17/09 at 8:33pm
Joe, I disagree, at least with the women vs blackface part. I think men performing The Vagina Monologues WOULD cause an uproar. Steel Magnolias, not so much. Think about Tropic Thunder. The fuss - if any - was minimal. If you really deconstruct the concept, I think you have a chance. Although there ARE women (and some men) who are offended with drag itself.
As for the King and I, it IS interesting. I'm not sure there is no one who finds it offensive. Like it or not, though, there's much more a cultural history of blackface in and of itself, and I don't think there's a comparable example for asian-american history. Even as I type that, though, I'm not sure that's the acceptable answer.
Isn't there some sort of adage about only mocking/stereotyping those you aren't afraid of?
What's the general line these days about non-hispanic folks playing sharks in West Side Story? Again, there's a question to be raised, but it's not a perfect match with the questions raised by blackface.
Updated On: 7/17/09 at 08:33 PM
gypsy4
Broadway Legend Joined: 8/14/07
#44Go for Diversity
Posted: 7/17/09 at 10:26pmI was Meant that theres more resources for the show if produced by an all white cast.
#45Go for Diversity
Posted: 7/17/09 at 11:17pmIf you don't have talented black students who can do the roles justice, don't do this show. Race is huge and I'd frankly be offended by a white Coalhouse and Sarah. It's not fair to the actors and it's not fair to the material.
#46Go for Diversity
Posted: 7/17/09 at 11:30pm
I actually have a semi related question.
When The Wiz was announced as the Summer Stars show, I was wondering at the prospect of not having an entirely African-American cast. As in, I was wondering if having a diverse cast of minorities, like African Americans, Hispanics and Asians would work with the purpose of the show. Or is it more tied to African American culture than it is to urban culture?
When I see the phrase "the ____ estate", I imagine a vast mansion in the country full of monocled men and high-collared women receiving letters about productions across the country and doing spit-takes at whatever they contain.
-Kad
#47Go for Diversity
Posted: 7/17/09 at 11:31pm
Yellowface is, unfortunately, seen as much more acceptable than blackface. The problem is that there is no Asian American equivalent to the NAACP, and Asian Americans have been thought of as wallflowers, of not being the type to speak up so it's "okay," of being wimps -- and in some ways, there is some truth to this. In many Asian cultures, you don't rock the boat. And this has been passed on even to 3rd or 4th generation Asian Americans.
However, we're starting to speak up more these days. Which is nice.
http://www.hyphenmagazine.com/blog/
http://angryasianman.com/angry.html
"This thread reads like a series of White House memos." — Mister Matt
#48Go for Diversity
Posted: 7/17/09 at 11:34pmLizzie, I was watching some of Obama's speech at the NAACP convention on the news the other day, and I'm actually not sure if he referred to Asian Americans. I do know he spoke not only about African Americans, but also Hispanics and Muslim Americas. so it's interesting that you brought that up.
When I see the phrase "the ____ estate", I imagine a vast mansion in the country full of monocled men and high-collared women receiving letters about productions across the country and doing spit-takes at whatever they contain.
-Kad
#49Go for Diversity
Posted: 7/18/09 at 12:16amIf I'm not mistaken, the original London production of Ragtime utilized a single ensemble for the whites, blacks, and imigrants. They used choreography, costume pieces, and body language to differentiate between the cultural groups.
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