Recovering from vocal nodules

[beltingbaritone]

Posted: 1/24/09 at 4:02pm

I've heard that people who have vocal nodules have to go on complete vocal rest for months at a time! (I've never had them, so I wouldn't know) But then, I've also read that some people get them surgically removed. Still, other's say that having surgery completely destroys your voice. Why do some singers have surgery and others don't? I could be mistaken, but I thought Idina Menzel had her's removed by means of surgery. I know Patti LuPone also had vocal nodules, but I don't know how she recovered.

[Dre2387]

Posted: 1/24/09 at 4:08pm

I think singers have them removed via surgery so that that can get back to singing asap. That or maybe if they wait, they will never fully recover. I know of only three cases:

Celine Dion had them, but didn't have the surgery. She went on hiatus for 6 months and never spoke a word. not a word. They went away.

Norbert Leo Butz supposedly had nodes. He took a break and then after DRS, he rested his voice and instead of taking musical roles, he established himself as a actor in plays too.

Julie Andrews had nodes and had the surgery. The surgery f*cked up her vocal chords (or really, the part that allowed to sing so amazingly). She lost the ability to sing, though is only now singing a bit and seeing if has anything left.

basically, there is a risk when getting surgery. not sure how much of one, but I would say a big one.

[TheCharleston]

Posted: 1/24/09 at 4:09pm

It all depends on the severity.

You can form more than one set of nodules. If you do, surgery is almost required.

If an ENT can see a pallap or nodule growth before it's in "full bloom", you can recover with vocal rest (you can't cheat it if you want it to work) for usually 2 - 3 months.

Even if you do get surgery, vocal rest is required for between 3 - 5 weeks after surgery. It just all depends.

Medically, I forget the determining factor. Perhaps there is someone who knows the scientific logistics (or has an ENT background) on this board!

[TheCharleston]

Posted: 1/24/09 at 4:14pm

"Julie Andrews had nodes and had the surgery. The surgery f*cked up her vocal chords (or really, the part that allowed to sing so amazingly)."

Incorrect. I don't remember the NAME of the surgery but she had a very specialized operation (which costs thousands and thousands of dollars) in which the vocal chords are "restructured" and "re-aligned".

Obviously I'm oversimplifying it but you get it.

If you continue to sing and perform WITH nodes (for months), your vocal chords have a high chance of becoming "destroyed" and can not handle the same pressure, support, and tension as they once did. There is a special surgery to fix this.

It was this surgery that completely messed up her voice. That's not normal. I believe she ended up suing and the doctors came to some type of settlement? Though I can't remember..


"basically, there is a risk when getting surgery. not sure how much of one, but I would say a big one."

Actually, it's really quite standard now. There's NOT a "big" risk.

[emo_geek]

Posted: 1/24/09 at 7:45pm

How does one usually get nodes. Did those actors ever speak of it?

[Schmerg_The_Impaler]

Posted: 1/24/09 at 7:52pm

I'm sure I probably have them, since I lose my voice all the time. Bleh.

[TheCharleston]

Posted: 1/24/09 at 8:23pm

Emo - they usually form from activies that require extreme pressure and tension and contact on your vocal chords (i.e. contstant yelling or coughing) ..

Most susceptible people are those who use their voice in a loud enviornment such as bartenders and teachers.

Singers, of course, CAN be just as susceptible.

Schmerg - are you a performer? you would probably know if you have nodes.

Nodule growth is associated with painful sensations upon vocal production and consistent extreme hoarseness.

I'd say about 90% of performers and singers KNOW when something is off and there are nodule growths.

Pallaps are a little different and can lead to nodule growths. These aren't as easy to detect and can be caused by ongoing acid reflux (as opposed to just using your voice loudly). If untreated, the pallap growths WILL turn into nodules.

[Schmerg_The_Impaler]

Posted: 1/24/09 at 8:33pm

I'm not a professional performer, but I usually do four or five shows a year, and I sing in two choirs. My throat rarely hurts, but I lose my voice at least ten times a year.

[bwaybabe2]

Posted: 1/24/09 at 8:40pm

Is hoarseness the only way to know if you have them? How exactly can you tell? And, can you actually see of feel them?

[TheCharleston]

Posted: 1/24/09 at 8:45pm

Schmerg - I highly doubt you have them, then. Probably just have poor breath support.

Bwaybabe - You can't technically "see" or "feel" them. You will feel the pain they're causing, though. Hoarasness.. reducded vocal range.. sharp pain.. consistent cracks in the voice.. its all signs.

If you're concerned then go get scoped. that's the only way you'll truly find out.

getting scoped isn't THAT bad and if you are a performer, many ENT doctors will advise that you should be scoped every year. at least once or twice. Not many follow that though.

fiberoptic micro-camera through your nose and into your nasal cavity. With a full scoping, they can see if you have a deviated septum (IF severe, many perfomers opt for minor surgery) and also check out your vocal chords which is the most important part.

it's uncomfortable but hardly hurts. your nose and the inner layer is, of course, numbed with a medicated gel prior to the scoping. The actual "procedure" is about 30 seconds to 1 minute.


Updated On: 1/24/09 at 08:45 PM

[Doogie]

Posted: 1/24/09 at 8:48pm

People also forget with Julie Andrews, that even prior to the development of her nodes, vocally she was a bit past her prime. She could still sing, most definitely, but not like she did 20-30 years prior. And recovering from that kind of surgery in your 60's is tough.

[TheCharleston]

Posted: 1/24/09 at 8:50pm

as stated before and just to clarify....

the surgery that the doctors botched up was NOT a nodule removal operation. It was much different and much more extreme.

Wikipedia states that she was "left unable to sing" from the removal of nodules in 1997. Who writes this crap?

There were two procedures in this process. The nodule removal wasn't the reason. It was the other. Wikipedia blows. Updated On: 1/24/09 at 08:50 PM

[dg22894]

Posted: 1/24/09 at 8:56pm

When I was in a Summer Theatre Camp for 6 weeks I got them. They were removed and I had to have a week of vocal rest.

[bwaybabe2]

Posted: 1/24/09 at 9:06pm

Thanks, TheCharleston, for the scoop. Pertinent and cool info. It almost makes me want to get scoped, myself. I'm supposed to get a sinus scan, where hopefully they can tell me the degree of deviation in my septum (I know it is deviated), so perhaps I will ask for this procedure at the same time.

[TheCharleston]

Posted: 1/24/09 at 9:17pm

Bwaybabe - it's not that expensive and MIGHT be covered, in full, depending on your insurance.

it couldn't hurt to get it done!

[bwaybabe2]

Posted: 1/24/09 at 9:27pm

Really...?! Wow, if my insurance will cover, that's gravy on the side for me! Thanks for adverting to the cost factor;that's important, as well.

[theaterkid1015]

Posted: 1/24/09 at 9:32pm

I heard Patti LuPone hemorrhaged a chord, not nodes. Any scoop?

[kchenofan]

Posted: 1/24/09 at 11:00pm

"Wikipedia states that she was "left unable to sing" from the removal of nodules in 1997. Who writes this crap?"

I can't stand Wikipedia. Any Joe Schmo could've written that garbage.

[Sondheim_Geek]

Posted: 1/24/09 at 11:05pm

I remember seeing a special on television a few years ago where Nathan Lane talked about it.

[Elphie3]

Posted: 1/24/09 at 11:50pm

I would just like to say - consult a professional, but PLEASE don't jump to surgery. It's actually very easy with the right teacher to cure vocal nodes with therapy. I know people who's voices have been perminantly damaged from the surgery - it was actually the surgery that caused Julie Andrews to loose her singing voice.

[SporkGoddess]

Posted: 1/24/09 at 11:57pm

Didn't Natalie Dessay also have the surgery?

[Theatreboy49]

Posted: 1/25/09 at 12:23am

I used to have nodes and with some very strong and great teaching from my voice coach I was able to go on rest and only use it during lessons and now Im stronger than ever. Whenever I start to hurt I think I might have them but Im pretty sure thats paranoia. I would defintily use surgery as a last option.

[beltingbaritone]

Posted: 1/25/09 at 12:29am

So then, is surgery an alternative if you're one can't take an extended period of rest?

[TheCharleston]

Posted: 1/25/09 at 1:13am

No.

I am not encouraging nor endorsing the surgery. I can't medically explain it but there are different extremes of nodule growth.

For some, 2 or 3 months of vocal rest AND therapy does it! For others, surgery will be required. It all depends on the damage.

the ENT doctors (the ones who scope you...) will determine what is needed. It's on a case-by-case basis. There's no "right" or "wrong" decision/choice

and I will say this again. Nodule Removal is considered a minor surgery and not THAT risky. Seems like many of you are afraid of it! I wouldn't suggest that everyone go out and do it, of course, but it's not a major surgery.

Julie Andrews was much different and HER specific operation was very complicated. Hence, the Mt. Sainai Hospital guys botching it up.