Rembember When Raul Esparza Lost the Tony to David Hyde Pierce...- Page 6

[haterobics]

Posted: 10/29/18 at 11:01am

Perhaps Esparza won the popular vote, but DPH won the electoral college?

[SonofRobbieJ]

Posted: 10/29/18 at 11:18am

People's disappointment about this is my oxygen.  It keeps me alive and thriving.
 

And I will always say that, though I would have personally voted for the brilliant Pinkins, I understand how Menzel won.  Menzel grounded a behemoth of a show and gave it a center that had warmth and a heart.  Pinkins was unsparing in her characterization of a woman would told a 12 year old boy "Hell's where Jews go when they die."  People like Elphaba.  People are terrified of Caroline. 

[IdinaBellFoster]

Posted: 10/29/18 at 11:25am

While I prefer Esparza's performance, I totally understand why David Hyde Pierce won. He's a beloved fixture in the community, and it was a way to aware CURTAINS in a year when it wasn't going to win anything else. 

[SomethingPeculiar]

Posted: 10/29/18 at 11:40am

AEA AGMA SM said: "You're not entirely alone. I found that whole production of Company to be overly cold and detached. The Bobby that was on that stage was not the Bobby that is sung about in "Side by Side" (there's no way Esparza's Bobby was "taking the kids to the zoo"


Esparza almost gave 2 performances:  "Being Alive," and everything else that came before "Being Alive."

His "Being Alive" might have been the best we'll ever see (and his "Mary Me A Little" was beautiful), but he was so nonchalant and almost depressive in the rest of his performance –– which hard for the main character of a musical comedy. Brantley and others certainly loved his performance, but there's still 2 hours before "Being Alive."

[sing_dance_love]

Posted: 10/29/18 at 11:45am

Echoing the last couple of comments, I have a lot of understanding for the context of how these two races ended up. And what thrilling races they were!

Menzel’s utter uniqueness of look, voice, and presence were so right for Elphaba and she became the grounded center of a whole lot of junk flying around that stage. Not to mention, I feel like a lot of voters were like “we need to throw Wicked one big bone” if they were planning on voting for Avenue Q in the other major categories.

THAT SAID, Tonya Pinkins’ performance in Caroline, or Change is one of the all-time greats and that Tony, as far as I’m concerned, has materialized in her living room just from the Universe righting itself. She was life-changing in that show.

I love close Tony races!

Updated On: 10/29/18 at 11:45 AM

[Mister Matt]

Posted: 10/29/18 at 2:43pm

But have Tony Awards ever really meant something? 

For example, The Music Man is one of my favourite shows. I love it so much. However, do I think West Side Story should have won more Tonys in 1958.

Obviously, the answer is purely subjective, especially when we forget that the Tonys represent a very specific snapshot of a moment in time.  Obviously, they mean something to those who win them and as a historical record.  Sometimes they really mean something to casual theatregoers and producers when they translate into ticket sales.  Our opinions on the results don't really mean anything except to us.

I think West Side Story was hugely influential and innovative in its day, though it's book has been consistently criticized and when it initially ran, was derided by fans of more conventional works (I recall reading an anecdote claiming that Mary Rodgers said the score didn't contain any melodies) which probably has a LOT to do with why it wasn't even nominated for Best Musical.  The show was WAY ahead of its time and voters likely weren't really ready for it yet.  It wasn't until it was a film that it actually cemented itself as a classic.  I love West Side Story, though I admit I'm not fond of "Tonight".  For me, it goes on too long and includes some of Sondheim's most cringe-worthy lyrics (though I do like its reprise in the Quintet).

Personally, I think The Music Man is possibly the most perfectly constructed musical to date.  The sound of the score may not have seemed innovative on the surface, but its composition was deceptively technical, intelligent and in many ways, innovative as well.  The book is flawless.  Its biggest problem is that directors often have a tendency to be lazy and think the classic conventionality of the show should make it something simple to stage and direct, resulting in a rather limp and tedious production.  The show requires leading man with endless charisma and stamina.  The leading lady needs to be strong in character and voice, but NOT a stereotypical ingenue.  If I were a voter at the time, I probably would have struggled with my decision, but most likely would have leaned toward Music Man 

[ScottyDoesn'tKnow2]

Posted: 10/29/18 at 2:48pm

Man, this whole thread took me back. I had no idea people were bitching about Boyd Gaines' worthy win for Gypsy.

Anyway, I remember the 2004 Tony race. I remember Chenoweth got the glowing reviews from Wicked and even the fans here said Cheno gave the more skilled and winning performance, but Idina was so unique and "Defying Gravity" was too much of a "Let it Go" type of phenom that she was the stronger choice. Plus the show really is about Elphaba even if Glinda can be a "scene-stealer". Tonya Pinkins was gaining some traction, but there was a real criticism at the time (not so much now) that she played Caroline too one-note (as if they couldn't understand a woman who really is that unhappy) and it got to the point where when the show opened in L.A., they changed the poster to make Caroline smile. That actually happened. Donna Murphy, people forget, was actually the one expected to win by many because she won the Critics' Choice AND Drama Desk even though we all know there's no overlap between them and the Tonys. People just thought people received the performances a certain way and Murphy was a slight favorite. She may have had more of a chance if there wasn't a narrative built around her constant missed performances leading up to the Tonys. Stephanie D'abruzzo knew her nomination was a win in of itself. She was seriously happy just to be nominated.

Updated On: 10/29/18 at 02:48 PM

[Mister Matt]

Posted: 10/29/18 at 4:23pm

Tonya Pinkins was gaining some traction, but there was a real criticism at the time (not so much now) that she played Caroline too one-note (as if they couldn't understand a woman who really is that unhappy)

Well, the lack of emotional range really has more to do with the writing than the performance or direction.  But you are forgetting about Pinkins' vocal struggles with the role, which was also a hot topic at the time.  When I saw the show, which I loved BTW, Pinkins cracked on the opening line and it was a really rough ride to the point of distraction throughout the entire show.  Lot's Wife was especially difficult to sit through.  She might have nailed the emotion, but vocally, she strained and struggled to reach the notes and croak out the lyrics.  As a voter, that would have had a HUGE effect on my vote for the category.  At the other end of the spectrum, Harrison Chad could sing the part of Noah very well, but was quite stiff and robotic as an actor.  Anika Noni Rose, Veanne Cox and Chandra Wilson stole the show out from under the two of them.  The rest of the supporting cast and ensemble were top-notch.

[jkstheatrescene]

Posted: 10/29/18 at 4:36pm

Mister Matt said: "But have Tony Awards ever really meant something?

For example, The Music Man is one of my favourite shows. I love it so much. However, do I think West Side Story should have won more Tonys in 1958.
...
I think West Side Story was hugely influential and innovative in its day, though it's book has been consistently criticized and when it initially ran, was derided by fans of more conventional works (I recall reading an anecdote claiming that Mary Rodgers said the score didn't contain any melodies) which probably has a LOT to do with why it wasn't even nominated for Best Musical. The show was WAY ahead of its time and voters likely weren't really ready for it yet. It wasn't until it was a film that it actually cemented itself as a classic. I love West Side Story, though I admit I'm not fond of "Tonight". For me, it goes on too long and includes some of Sondheim's most cringe-worthy lyrics (though I do like its reprise in the Quintet)."

 

Actually, West Side Story  WAS nominated for Best Musical, along with New Girl in Town, Oh, Captain!, Jamaica and The Music Man.

[sing_dance_love]

Posted: 10/29/18 at 4:47pm

Totally hear what you’re saying Mister Matt, about the crackage. For me though, Tonya embraced her character’s struggle, and raw pain in such an intense way that her refusal to (in large part) back off of the notes, because of the strain she was experiencing, took the performance to a whole new level for me. It was Caroline, flaws and all. It’s part of why I found the performance so brave and moving. Totally a matter of opinion though.

When I was writing my previous post, I was thinking about the Donna Murphy factor too. That’s how I remember the moment too, as Donna having the slight edge in a pretty hotly contested race. That was a really strong best actress lineup, now that we look
back on it.

[ScottyDoesn'tKnow2]

Posted: 10/30/18 at 10:22am

sing_dance_love said: "Totally hear what you’re saying Mister Matt, about the crackage. For me though, Tonya embraced her character’s struggle, and raw pain in such an intense way that her refusal to (in large part) back off of the notes, because of the strain she was experiencing, took the performance to a whole new level for me. It was Caroline, flaws and all. It’s part of why I found the performance so brave and moving. Totally a matter of opinion though.

When I was writing my previous post, I was thinking about the Donna Murphy factor too. That’s how I remember the moment too, as Donna having the slight edge in a pretty hotly contested race. That was a really strong best actress lineup, now that we look
back on it."

Absolutely. A Best Actress race with Chenoweth, Menzel, Murphy, & Pinkins is really stacked. It's like 2006 when we got Foster, Lupone, O'Hara, Rivera, and winner LaChanze in the Best Actress race.

[Mister Matt]

Posted: 10/30/18 at 10:49am

Actually, West Side Story  WAS nominated for Best Musical, along with New Girl in Town, Oh, Captain!, Jamaica and The Music Man.

Oops.  You're totally right.  Funny thing is, I thought it was, but when I looked it up before I posted, I swear I didn't see it in the list of nominees.

For me though, Tonya embraced her character’s struggle, and raw pain in such an intense way that her refusal to (in large part) back off of the notes, because of the strain she was experiencing, took the performance to a whole new level for me.

I probably would have accepted that as well if it only occurred during emotional peaks in the show, but when I saw it, the cracks started right from the beginning (on the word "Louisiana" in the opening line...something that was pretty hard to forget) and continued all throughout the show.  Her voice was so strained, in Lot's Wife she simply didn't have the strength to hit the top belt notes and could only stay on pitch her the quite section in her head voice.  It was uncomfortable for the wrong reasons.

[ScottyDoesn'tKnow2]

Posted: 10/30/18 at 1:45pm

Mister Matt said: "Actually,West Side StoryWAS nominated for Best Musical, along withNew Girl in Town, Oh, Captain!, JamaicaandThe Music Man.

Oops. You're totally right. Funny thing is, I thought it was, but when I looked it up before I posted, I swear I didn't see it in the list of nominees.

For me though, Tonya embraced her character’s struggle, and raw pain in such an intense way that her refusal to (in large part) back off of the notes, because of the strain she was experiencing, took the performance to a whole new level for me.

I probably would have accepted that as well if it only occurred during emotional peaks in the show, but when I saw it, the cracks started right from the beginning (on the word "Louisiana" in the opening line...something that was pretty hard to forget) and continued all throughout the show. Her voice was so strained, in Lot's Wife she simply didn't have the strength to hit the top belt notes and could only stay on pitch her the quite section in her head voice. It was uncomfortable for the wrong reasons."

I remember hearing about that too. Maybe the same people who voted for Anika Noni Rose DID NOT vote for Pinkins for that reason. I'm sure some would have voted for Menzel anyway. Menzel was having some voice issues well as a big thing on this board was people picking on her constant gasping, but Wicked was a huge juggernaut that Caroline, or Change was not. Avenue Q winning is still the biggest Tony surprise I personally saw in real time. More so than DHP beating Esparza.

[Mister Matt]

Posted: 10/30/18 at 2:05pm

Menzel was having some voice issues well as a big thing on this board was people picking on her constant gasping

It was about as big a thing in reality as the popular complaint on this board that the score was totes stupid cuz "confessa" wasn't a word.

[sing_dance_love]

Posted: 10/30/18 at 2:46pm

I probably would have accepted that as well if it only occurred during emotional peaks in the show, but when I saw it, the cracks started right from the beginning (on the word "Louisiana" in the opening line...something that was pretty hard to forget) and continued all throughout the show. Her voice was so strained, in Lot's Wife she simply didn't have the strength to hit the top belt notes and could only stay on pitch her the quite section in her head voice. It was uncomfortable for the wrong reasons."

Oh yeah, I hear you. I mean she could have totally backed off and sang the whole thing in head voice and that probably would have been a lot easier on the ears, but all I’m saying is I appreciated that she wasn’t afraid to crack. While jarring at first, I just thought it was v Caroline. But, obviously, I totally understand why it would just be a major turn off for people and I imagine she lost some votes. 

But, like we said, embarrassment of riches with leading women that year. As well as 2006, I forgot LaChanze beat all those other divas! 

[ScottyDoesn'tKnow2]

Posted: 10/30/18 at 3:10pm

Mister Matt said: "Menzel was having some voice issues well as a big thing on this board was people picking on her constant gasping

It was about as big a thing in reality as the popular complaint on this board that the score was totes stupid cuz "confessa" wasn't a word."

OMG, you are bringing me back to the wild days of this board. I think Wicked must have been the hot topic on this board here for like two-three years.

[Mister Matt]

Posted: 10/30/18 at 3:22pm

but all I’m saying is I appreciated that she wasn’t afraid to crack. 

Well, when I saw it, her only other choice was not to perform at all, which might have been better for everyone and a more responsible decision.  I don't think there was anything particularly "brave" or "character" about her vocal issues at that time.  I didn't care whether or not she was "afraid" to crack.  She had blown out her voice and was still trying to perform beyond her capabilities.  And given its short run, I imagine a lot of voters ended up seeing her when she should have been taking some vocal rest.

I later saw a regional production in Chicago with a terrific Caroline and hearing the role sung by a stronger, healthier voice was something of a revelation.

[DivaBrigader]

Posted: 10/30/18 at 5:01pm

uncageg said: "Still think it was due to a split of some kind between Cheno and Pinkins causing Menzel to win. Loved Menzel but Pinkins was incredible. JMO"

This isn't vote splitting. Vote splitting by definition is a specific phenomena in which the distribution of votes amongst similar performances/performers is split giving something dissimilar the chance to win. Cheno and Pinkins gave totally unrelated performances in totally different styles of shows. If Pinkins had won, you could argue that Menzel and Cheno split votes being from the same show.

Updated On: 10/30/18 at 05:01 PM

[Jarethan]

Posted: 10/30/18 at 5:17pm

I also saw it at the Guthrie in Minneapolis, and thought that the woman (whose name I cannot remember) sang the role much better than Pinkins, who I had assumed was just having a bad night when I saw her.  I also liked the staging more than on Broadway, although I have to admit that I admired the show more than I liked it.

If Pinkins' voice was a problem, why did she get a pass when Bernadette Peters and Boyd Gaines received very dismissive  -- almost brutal -- comments on this board, when they were having vocal issues in the early runs of Gypsy and Company.  IMO it cost Peters the Tony andGaines a nomination (even though both got beyond their issues eventually).

Re Murphy, as I recall, she probably got the best individual reviews of the season;however,by the timeofthe Tony's, i did nothing she had a chance because of all the controversy about missed performances.  I remember thinking the time that it was between Pinkins and Menzel, for whom I would have voted.  Interestingly, I have since tired of Menzel, who I think has developed an unpleasant shrillness, where once she caused goose bumps.

Finally, re Esparza...I saw Dean Jones, Larry Kert (several times), Boyd Gaines (twice), and NPH play Bobby.  i thought Esparza's performance was a distant fifth in terms of moving me.  To me, Esparza may have a good voice, but he is an incredibly cold performer; suddenly singing Being Alive beautifully and with great emotion long after he had already lost me was too little too late.  Do I think Pierce deserved a Tony?  No.  I probably would have voted for Groff, but it was not a crime that he lost since Gallagher stole that show.

[sing_dance_love]

Posted: 10/30/18 at 7:02pm

@MM ...ok. Difference of opinion, then. No need to mock my choice of words. Just sharing my viewpoint while understanding that yours has validity too. Carry on.

Updated On: 10/30/18 at 07:02 PM

[Mister Matt]

Posted: 10/31/18 at 4:33pm

I want mocking anyone. I was explaining how very different the experience was for me based on the performance I attended.

[ScottyDoesn'tKnow2]

Posted: 10/31/18 at 5:07pm

Would Tony Shalhoub have beaten Raul Esparza? If so, would the reaction have been as fierce?

[darquegk]

Posted: 10/31/18 at 8:45pm

The “contessa” argument was always spurious: they do speak pidgin in many numbers, but that line is “confess, a/reason.”