Remdiner Universal pushed back the film adaptation of Wicked for Cats- Page 2

[PalJoey]

Posted: 1/2/20 at 11:00am

Over their respective lifespans, Wicked has made FAR more money than Cats. I believe the #1 money-making musical is Lion King, followed in descending order by Phantom, Wicked, Cats, Les Mis, and Mamma Mia.

[Kad]

Posted: 1/2/20 at 11:09am

The Wicked film has been "in production" for like 8 years. It wasn't delayed just because of Cats. And it ain't comin' next year, either. 

[JSquared2]

Posted: 1/2/20 at 11:38am

PalJoey said: "Over their respective lifespans, Wicked has made FAR more money than Cats. I believe the #1 money-making musical is Lion King, followed in descending order by Phantom, Wicked, Cats, Les Mis, and Mamma Mia."

If you adjust for inflation, I believe that CATS is still ahead of WICKED.  Remember that CATS had a TOP ticket price of $50!!

[a-mad]

Posted: 1/2/20 at 12:05pm

There is so much to say right now... but I'll just state the following prediction - The film adaptation of "Wicked" (once it's finally released) will make more domestically in it's opening weekend than "Cats" will gross in it's entire run.  

[Mister Matt]

Posted: 1/2/20 at 12:17pm

Reminder we were supposed to get the film adaptation of Wicked this year but they deiced to push it back 2 years in favor of cats

So?

Well, since you've been surprisingly accepting of my idea that they should really ditch like half the score of Wicked for a movie, I have to ask... should/can they write a better song for Fiyero than Dancing Through Life? There are a lot of pretty songs for male characters in musical theater. And I'm not saying it needs to be like "Where is the Life That Late I Led?" But Fiyero could butch it up a little. Even "Younger Than Springtime" works better.

I've never had a problem with it.  It suits his demeanor and his charismatic personality leads the number to the dance at the Ozdust Ballroom, shifting it from being just "his song" to a theme adopted by all the characters.  

[bdn223]

Posted: 1/2/20 at 1:39pm

JSquared2 said: "PalJoey said: "Over their respective lifespans, Wicked has made FAR more money than Cats. I believe the #1 money-making musical is Lion King, followed in descending order by Phantom, Wicked, Cats, Les Mis, and Mamma Mia."

If you adjust for inflation, I believe that CATS is still ahead of WICKED. Remember that CATS had a TOP ticket price of $50!!"

Yes, but even if one adjusts for inflation Wicked would still out gross Cats by nearly $145 Million dollars based on Cats'  average ticket price. Cats sold 8.6 million tickets during its initial run, with an average ticket cost of $42, compared to Wicked, which has sold nearly 12.1 million tickets as of the end of 2019. As such approximately 3.4 million more people have seen Wicked on Broadway. 

All in terms of Broadway's highest grossing productions as of week ending December 29, 2019:

1.  The Lion King with 15,579,853 tickets equating to $1,665,229,862 in gross sales
2. Wicked with 12,057,801 tickets equating to $1,353,124,272 in gross sales
3. The Phantom of the Opera with 19,229,593 tickets sold equating to $1,245,192,546 in gross sales

In terms of physical tickets, the list is the same three shows except Phantom is number one, followed by The Lion King, and Wicked.

Remember that Wicked was been consistently 85% to 100 capacity of the Gershwin the largest theater on Broadway by 172 seats for over 16 years now. The Gershwin has 223, 288, and 407 more seats than the Minskoff (The Lion King), the Majestic (Phantom), and The Winter Garden (original home of Cats) respectively.  Therefore each week Wicked has the potential to cut the gap in tickets sold by Lion King and Phantom by at 1,784 tickets and 2,304 if at capacity. This is also why despite having 732 less performances than Cats as of December 29, 2019, its sold approximately 3.4 million more tickets. As on average Wicked has sold 1,786 tickets to each performance, compared to Cats which only sold and average of 1,272 tickets to each performance.  

[YvanEhtNioj]

Posted: 1/2/20 at 1:55pm

Choices.

[SweetLips22]

Posted: 1/2/20 at 2:55pm

A naive question to bdn23 who has $$ knowledge of theatre incomes that, to me, is waaaay out the stage door and down several blocks-------who is the top money maker from these extra-ordinary block busters?

I would hope the composer/writer then producers, director then landlord.

These shows[all shows] pay cast/crew/designers etc but they are all just employees as in any business.

I suppose it all depends on who is the toughest negotiator.

I look forward to a reply, from anyone.

Thanks

[joevitus]

Posted: 1/2/20 at 3:25pm

bdn223 said: "JSquared2 said: "PalJoey said: "Over their respective lifespans, Wicked has made FAR more money than Cats. I believe the #1 money-making musical is Lion King, followed in descending order by Phantom, Wicked, Cats, Les Mis, and Mamma Mia."

If you adjust for inflation, I believe that CATS is still ahead of WICKED. Remember that CATS had a TOP ticket price of $50!!"

Yes, but even if one adjusts for inflation Wicked would still out grossCatsby nearly $145 Million dollars based on Cats' average ticket price.Catssold 8.6 million tickets during its initial run, with an average ticket cost of $42, compared toWicked,which has sold nearly 12.1 milliontickets as of the end of 2019. As suchapproximately 3.4 million more people have seenWickedon Broadway.

All in terms of Broadway's highest grossing productions as of week ending December 29, 2019:

1. The Lion King with 15,579,853 tickets equating to $1,665,229,862 in gross sales
2. Wickedwith 12,057,801 tickets equating to $1,353,124,272 in gross sales
3. The Phantom of the Operawith 19,229,593 tickets sold equating to $1,245,192,546 in gross sales

In terms of physical tickets, the list is the same three shows except Phantomis number one, followed byThe Lion King, andWicked.

Remember thatWickedwas been consistently 85% to 100 capacity of the Gershwin the largest theater on Broadway by 172 seats for over 16 years now. The Gershwin has 223, 288, and 407 more seats than the Minskoff (The Lion King),the Majestic (Phantom),and The Winter Garden (original home ofCats)respectively. Therefore each week Wickedhas the potential to cut the gap in tickets sold by Lion KingandPhantom by at 1,784 tickets and 2,304 if at capacity. This is also why despite having 732 less performances than Catsas of December 29, 2019, its sold approximately 3.4 million more tickets. As on averageWicked has sold 1,786 tickets to each performance, compared to Catswhich only sold and average of 1,272 tickets to each performance."

Are we only doing Broadway runs here, or does this include tours and international productions? I find it extremely hard to believe Wicked has done better than Cats, just on the basis of the number of years Cats ran/is running (depending on the country under discussion). Not writing this as any fan of Cats, just considering the number of years it has remained a tried and true moneymaker.

[bdn223]

Posted: 1/2/20 at 3:40pm

SweetLips22 said: "A naive question to bdn23 who has $$ knowledge of theatre incomes that, to me, is waaaay out the stage door and down several blocks-------who is the top money maker from these extra-ordinary block busters?

I would hope the composer/writer then producers, director then landlord.

These shows[all shows] pay cast/crew/designers etc but they are all just employees as in any business.

I suppose it all depends on who is the toughest negotiator.

I look forward to a reply, from anyone.

Thanks"

Its all dependent on the contracts negotiated by the creatives at the time of a projects inception. From what I know the basic structure of payment is the landlords take either a set rent minimum or 10% of gross sales, whichever is more. So based of of that at so the Shubert Organization has made $124 million dollars in rent from Phantom, while the Neaderlander Organization has made $135 million from Wicked  and $120 million from The Lion King since it moved to the Minskoff.  The rest of the numbers are a little bit fuzzy as traditionally creatives (Director/Composer/playwright/lyricist/Book writer/choreographer...etc)get two salaries a fixed amount and   split approximately 30% of the Gross profit after fixed running costs such as rent, cast and crews salaries, marketing, general upkeep, etc are deducted from a shows gross sales. The exact split is unknown and can vary based on deals negotiated by everyone involved. The final 70% is split among producers and investors based on prearranged contracts.  Thus producers producer's earnings are the most likely to fluctuate, but are typically the most in a show that is SRO.    Based on the opening night production credits for Phantom, The Lion King, and Wicked, I would guess that Andrew Lloyd Webber is likely individual entity that has made the most money off of the productions as he is credited as both the composer and a producer via his Really Useful Theater Group. Then if I had to guess it goes as follows:

1. Andrew Lloyd Webber- due to being both composer and producer
2. Disney Theatrical due to being the sole producer of The Lion King
3. Cameron Mackintosh due to being one of only 2 producers of Phantom
4. Marc Platt and Universal Pictures for being the lead producers of Wicked
5. Julie Taymor for her direction, writing credit, Costume Design, and Mask& Puppet Design  for The Lion King
6. The Araca Group, Jon B. Platt, and David Stone for being the secondary producers of Wicked
7. Stephen Schwartz, Winnie Holzmann, and Joe Mantello for being the main creatives on Wicked
8. Hal Prince, Richard Silgoe and Charles Hart for being the main creatives for Phantom outside of Andrew Lloyd Webber
9. Elton John, Tim Rice, Lebo M, Mark Mancina, Jay Rikfin, Hans Zimmer, Roger Allers, and Irene Mecchi, aka 8 of the 9 creatives with writing credits for The Lion King

All of this is speculative though as its all based on unkown contracts, but I would bet money on either Andrew Lloyd Webber or Disney Theatrical holding the record for earning the most money from soley ticket sales for a single Broadway production. 

[bdn223]

Posted: 1/2/20 at 3:40pm

duplicate

Updated On: 1/2/20 at 03:40 PM

[Kad]

Posted: 1/2/20 at 3:44pm

It's worth noting that Stephen Daldry was working on The Inheritance for not insignificant portions of the past two years. I highly doubt Universal bumped Wicked because of Cats. Cats just was more readily producible in terms of scheduling.

...Which was the cited reason when this change was announced. 

https://deadline.com/2018/08/taylor-swift-cats-movie-casting-james-corden-ian-mckellen-1202391041/

Updated On: 1/2/20 at 03:44 PM

[AEA AGMA SM]

Posted: 1/2/20 at 4:01pm

"Cats boards what will be a very busy Christmas 2019 stretch. On December 20 next year, Disney’s Star Wars: Episode IX opens along with Fox’s Death on the Nile, followed by Sony’s Masters of the Universe on Christmas Day. The thinking, based on the slow burn success of The Greatest Showman, is that even if Star Wars trounces on the musical’s opening weekend, the holiday and January box office will send ticket sales skyward, especially for branded property like Cats. If an original musical IP like Greatest Showman can post a near 20x multiple (from an $8.8M opening to $174M domestic final), Cats should have no problem."

Wow, the only thing that came true in this paragraph is that Star Wars did indeed trounce Cats on their opening weekend (and yes, I would wager everything I have against Cats actually pulling a Greatest Showman in terms of its long-term box office success)

[bdn223]

Posted: 1/2/20 at 4:27pm

joevitus said: "bdn223 said: "JSquared2 said: "PalJoey said: "Over their respective lifespans, Wicked has made FAR more money than Cats. I believe the #1 money-making musical is Lion King, followed in descending order by Phantom, Wicked, Cats, Les Mis, and Mamma Mia."

If you adjust for inflation, I believe that CATS is still ahead of WICKED. Remember that CATS had a TOP ticket price of $50!!"

Yes, but even if one adjusts for inflation Wicked would still out grossCatsby nearly $145 Million dollars based on Cats' average ticket price.Catssold 8.6 million tickets during its initial run, with an average ticket cost of $42, compared toWicked,which has sold nearly 12.1 milliontickets as of the end of 2019. As suchapproximately 3.4 million more people have seenWickedon Broadway.

All in terms of Broadway's highest grossing productions as of week ending December 29, 2019:

1. The Lion King with 15,579,853 tickets equating to $1,665,229,862 in gross sales
2. Wickedwith 12,057,801 tickets equating to $1,353,124,272 in gross sales
3. The Phantom of the Operawith 19,229,593 tickets sold equating to $1,245,192,546 in gross sales

In terms of physical tickets, the list is the same three shows except Phantomis number one, followed byThe Lion King, andWicked.

Remember thatWickedwas been consistently 85% to 100 capacity of the Gershwin the largest theater on Broadway by 172 seats for over 16 years now. The Gershwin has 223, 288, and 407 more seats than the Minskoff (The Lion King),the Majestic (Phantom),and The Winter Garden (original home ofCats)respectively. Therefore each week Wickedhas the potential to cut the gap in tickets sold by Lion KingandPhantom by at 1,784 tickets and 2,304 if at capacity. This is also why despite having 732 less performances than Catsas of December 29, 2019, its sold approximately 3.4 million more tickets. As on averageWicked has sold 1,786 tickets to each performance, compared to Catswhich only sold and average of 1,272 tickets to each performance."

Are we only doing Broadway runs here, or does this include tours and international productions? I find it extremely hard to believe Wicked has done better than Cats, just on the basis of the number of years Cats ran/is running (depending on the country under discussion). Not writing this as any fan of Cats, just considering the number of years it has remained a tried and true moneymaker."

This is only based on original broadway productions, with the information publicly available from the Broadway league. I will agree Tours would likely greatly increase the number of tickets and sales sold for Cats for two reasons though. One is that all of these shows would likely play the same houses while touring meaning the show that has has the most performances will more then likely have sold the most tickets. Two, Cats has been on tour since 1983. Even when touring and US based sitdown productions are taken in account though,  Phantom is likely the most seen production as it  has played approximately 34 years, followed by Cats with 31, The Lion King with 28, and Wicked with 27 years. Remember that at Wicked and The Lion Kings height each had two touring productions and at least 2 sit down productions (San Francisco/LA/Vegas/Chicago) playing simultaneously in addition to Broadway. If you then take into account for 12 years of Cats touring life it was a non equity tour playing smaller houses, its likely that both The Lion King and Wicked have sold more tickets for the same reasons stated above. 
 

Also I would not take international productions into account when comparing it the films from the lens of a Hollywood Executive. In terms of international film sales the big three for musicals are the UK, Japan, and South Korea. Of these territories I would argue that only in the UK is Cats a bigger deal, with Wicked having significantly more success in the other two. 

[SweetLips22]

Posted: 1/2/20 at 5:42pm

Thank you bdn223 for your remarkable explanation of the complexity, and risks that are shared so that the public can 'go see a show'.

And that is what I am going to do at 10.20 this morning--going to see Cats.

Will I add my thoughts to that already far too long thread?

 

[sparksatmidnight]

Posted: 1/2/20 at 9:45pm

Wicked doesn't even have a screenplay yet. Universal, on the other hand, had a date set for a musical film. They could either use it for another movie or simply release nothing at all. Wicked wasn't going to be released in 2019 even if Stephen Schwartz decided to play every character himself.