Sean Hayes / Oscar Levant - The Jewish Part- Page 6

[James Edwards2]

Posted: 4/26/23 at 7:50pm

PipingHotPiccolo said: "I agree with this guy's underlying point re the double standard many of you are guilty of, frankly, but this over the top presentation does no one any favors here and accomplishes nothing.

I was, however, thinking today about the comment above--fairly made--that there ISNT a representation issue re Jewish actors. I think thats probably true from a #s perspective, but why don't we apply that logic to LGBTQ performers? Isn't there an argument that gay characters should be played by gay actors? But surely there isnt a dearth of gay actors?

I reject the notion both for Jews and LGBTQ--the Joan Rivers project with Kathryn Hahn is a casualty of this nonsense-- but its an interesting example where REPRESENTATION seems to matter for one more than the other."

You are right.  Thank you again.  I do not usually post on message boards and I am not nearly as articulate as you are. 

[BWAY Baby2]

Posted: 4/26/23 at 8:07pm

For me, I think there is an anti- white bias in a lot of what is going on these days- and I cannot say I do not understand why- because, any thoughtful person will agree that diversity has not been happening in so many walks of life for a very long time- and white people have basically controlled and locked out POC in so many areas of life- and that needs to be corrected and stopped. For me, that is undeniable. However, in the quest to be more equitable and fair to POC, LBG....., etc. perhaps there is somewhat of an overreaction- which happens when extreme situations are being dealt with- and I would say the lock out of diversity over the decades was/is extreme. However, I believe that Jews are considered white by many people- and therefore are no part of the diversity discussion- they can be replaced by anybody at any time in the arts-- and there are no compunctions about doing so. Is this fair? I don't think so. 

Updated On: 4/26/23 at 08:07 PM

[James Edwards2]

Posted: 4/26/23 at 8:21pm

BWAY Baby2 said: "For me, I think there is an anti- white bias in a lot of what is going on these days- and I cannot say I do not understand why- because, any thoughtful person will agree that diversity has not been happening in so many walks of life for a very long time- and white people have basically controlled and locked out POC in so many areas of life- and that needs to be corrected and stopped. For me, that is undeniable. However, in the quest to be more equitable and fair to POC, LBG....., etc. perhaps there is somewhat of an overreaction- which happens when extreme situations are being dealt with- and I would say the lock out of diversity over the decades was/is extreme. However, I believe that Jews are considered white by many people- and therefore are no part of the diversity discussion- they can be replaced by anybody at any time in the arts-- and there are no compunctions about doing so. Is this fair? I don't think so."

This is exactly correct.  They built the business.  When it came to movies, when it came to musicals.  They are responsible for their creations.  Because they had nowhere else to go.  No other businesses wanted these immigrants.  And yet they are left out of the discussion.  And when you try to have a discussion about it (like the one here) there are many people who don't want to have it.

[BWAY Baby2]

Posted: 4/26/23 at 9:31pm

Exactly- and I know I have been labeled racist for bringing this issue up a few pages back- because people see Jews as part of the white privilege package- and therefore it is totally acceptable to negate any challenge Jews have voiced - easily chalking it up to racism and white privilege. For me, it is not acceptable to have historically celebrated Jews- a Lehman Brother- Florenz Ziegfeld to name two recent examples-  portrayed by black actors- unless colorless casting goes both ways. If a Temptation were white- or Jewish- that would, for me, make it okay for colorless casting to be a justifiable option- getting the best actor for the role- but we all know that this is not the case. Either race is respected in casting- or it is not- it cannot only go one way.

[James Edwards2]

Posted: 4/27/23 at 12:29am

Highland Guy said: "James Edwards2 said: "That's not what happened but okay. I apologize for suggesting you might be someone who would also deny the Holocaust. That was my bad.

But it wasn't trolling as you suggest. It wasn't meant to upset you, which is what trolling is. It was meant to point out that the kinds of things you are denying in what I was saying are similar things to people who deny the Holocaust. If you don't want people to make those connections, maybe try not to discount someone's viewpoint on a topic you aren't at all versed in. I say this with care, not in anger."

STOP

"

So you don't accept my apology?  What can I do to make this up to you?  

[Jonathan Cohen]

Posted: 4/27/23 at 12:53am

James Edwards2 said: "This argument is precisely why there is a problem with representation. Mr. Hayes can get the play produced because he is famous. But Mr. Hayes most likely would not have had the television career he had if he were Jewish and had semitic features. Television sitcoms of the 80s and 90s and 00s rarely featured actors with semitic features. We do not have a lot of Jewish-facing stars. So in order to get the play done we have to cast someone who isn't Jewish. Which is also why there has been a lack of representation in big movies. Studios understandably want to bank on bankable actors. Most of those actors are white."

I'm looking at the names of actors who have been nominated for Emmy Awards in Comedy categories the last few years: Paul Reiser, Natasha Lyonne, Julia Louis-Dreyfus, Brett Goldstein, Alan Arkin, Pamela Adlon, Henry Winkler, Sarah Goldberg, Alex Borstein, Anna Chlumsky, Vanessa Bayer, Hannah Einbinder, Michael Douglas, Tiffany Haddish, Eugene Levy, Larry David, Dan Levy...

There are enough Jews there for an Adam Sandler song. 

I can't speak to your interpretation of what a Jew looks like, but I'd disagree with your premise that it's harder for Jewish actors to get hired for TV comedies. 

Also, Sean Hayes is an openly gay man, and even before he was officially out, that seems like a much bigger acting career impediment than being Jewish (especially pre-Will & Grace).   

I can even give a concrete example of what I'm talking about. Before Will & Grace, the most prominent gay character on a sitcom was probably Billy Crystal playing Jodie on Soap, starting in 1977. Back then you couldn't use an openly gay actor to play a gay character, but they had no problems casting an openly Jewish actor in the role.

[James Edwards2]

Posted: 4/27/23 at 1:29am

Jonathan Cohen said: "James Edwards2 said: "This argument is precisely why there is a problem with representation. Mr. Hayes can get the play produced because he is famous. But Mr. Hayes most likely would not have had the television career he had if he were Jewish and had semitic features. Television sitcoms of the 80s and 90s and 00s rarely featured actors with semitic features. We do not have a lot of Jewish-facing stars. So in order to get the play done we have to cast someone who isn't Jewish. Which is also why there has been a lack of representation in big movies. Studios understandably want to bank on bankable actors. Most of those actors are white."

I'm looking at the names of actors who have been nominated for Emmy Awards in Comedy categories the last few years:Paul Reiser,Natasha Lyonne,Julia Louis-Dreyfus,Brett Goldstein,Alan Arkin,Pamela Adlon,Henry Winkler,Sarah Goldberg,Alex Borstein,Anna Chlumsky,Vanessa Bayer,Hannah Einbinder,Michael Douglas, Tiffany Haddish, Eugene Levy, Larry David, Dan Levy...

There are enough Jews there for an Adam Sandler song.

I can't speak to your interpretation of what a Jew looks like, but I'd disagree with your premise that it's harder for Jewish actors to get hired for TV comedies.

Also,Sean Hayes is an openly gay man, and even before he was officially out, that seems like a much bigger acting career impediment than being Jewish (especially pre-Will & Grace).

I can even give a concrete example of what I'm talking about. BeforeWill & Grace, the most prominent gay character on a sitcom was probablyBilly Crystal playing Jodie on Soap, starting in 1977. Back then you couldn't use an openly gay actor to play a gay character, but they had no problems casting an openly Jewish actor in the role."

There's no question that being an openly gay actor has been a career impediment.  I was never implying that Mr. Hayes has had an easy road.  He's a very talented individual.  So let's take that off the table.

Your list of Jewish people nominated for Emmy's is all well and good but that is not reflective of what is actually on television.  You just pointed out people who are getting nominations.  It is very hard to find a character on a television who is Jewish.   How many Jewish characters are there on Grey's Anatomy, for example?  And then when there are Jewish characters, are they the leading men or women?  They're usually sidekicks, or Jewish stereotypes.  The same issue that BIPOC people face being relegated to secondary characters, Jewish people also face.  And when the leading characters are Jewish you have a Mrs. Maisel situation where she is played by a very white-looking, non-Jewish woman.  People have taken issue with that.  And here we have the title character of a play about a historical Jewish figure played by a white-looking, non-Jewish man.  I don't think it's objecitvely wrong, just wrong in the context of how we currently treat most other ethnicities.  Again, you should check out Sarah Silverman talking about this.  She can articulate it way better.

[PipingHotPiccolo]

Posted: 4/27/23 at 1:33am

James Edwards2 said: "

You are right. Thank you again. I do not usually post on message boards and I am not nearly as articulate as you are."

It has nothing to do with being articulate. Theres a valid point to be made here but you keep haranguing and insulting people, you seem hysterical about the issue, and you end up making arguments that are the flipside of the anti semitic coin. I find your comments about "looking Semitic" to be utterly disgusting, and extremely exclusionary to Black Jews, Mexican Jews, the millions and millions of Arab Jews-- <<edited by moderator>>

This Jonathan Cohen character, fresh off his absolutely dimwitted attempt to shoehorn Black Germans into Holocaust representation, is now *counting Jews like its 1933* and thats in response to your absolutely ridiculous comment that if Sean Hayes was Jewish he wouldnt have gotten anywhere. Uhm he shot to fame alongside Debra Messing, a proud Jew *playing a proud Jew.*  So yeah, theres a double standard among the Woke Casting Police, but you have just gone off the rails here, and need to check yourself (or maybe just grow up a bit and gain some perspective, I dont know-- when I was 20 I didnt know how to pick my battles, like using this innocuous Sean Hayes Oscar Levant example to launch this debate).

But regardless, as someone else said, really do yourself a favor and STOP.

Updated On: 4/27/23 at 01:33 AM

[James Edwards2]

Posted: 4/27/23 at 1:56am

PipingHotPiccolo said: "James Edwards2 said: "

You are right. Thank you again. I do not usually post on message boards and I am not nearly as articulate as you are."

It has nothing to do with being articulate. Theres a valid point to be made here but you keep haranguing and insulting people, you seem hysterical about the issue, and you end up making arguments that are the flipside of the anti semitic coin. I find your comments about "looking Semitic" to be utterly disgusting, and extremely exclusionary to Black Jews, Mexican Jews, the millions and millions of Arab Jews-- <<edited by moderator>>

This Jonathan Cohen character, fresh off his absolutely dimwitted attempt to shoehorn Black Germans into Holocaust representation, is now *counting Jews like its 1933* and thats in response to your absolutely ridiculous comment that if Sean Hayes was Jewish he wouldnt have gotten anywhere. Uhm he shot to fame alongside Debra Messing, a proud Jew *playing a proud Jew.* So yeah, theres a double standard among the Woke Casting Police, but you have just gone off the rails here, and need to check yourself (or maybe just grow up a bit and gain some perspective, I dont know-- when I was 20 I didnt know how to pick my battles, like using this innocuous Sean Hayes Oscar Levant example to launch this debate).

But regardless, as someone else said, really do yourself a favor and STOP."

I think you misunderstand me.  Maybe I'm not using the "correct" words.  But why do I get so frequently asked if I'm Jewish if I don't look Jewish?  Why did children in school make fun of me for not looking like they did?  Are there other types of Jewish people?  Yes.  Are there Jewish people who look like Paul Rudd and you wouldn't know they're Jewish?  Yes.  I didn't create this society.  For whatever reason, there are features that certain Jewish people have.  In fact, many people can tell the difference between a Sephardic and an Ashkenazi Jew but looking at them.  I am not excluding the Mexican or Black or other Jews from being Jewish.  Please don't call me disgusting for stating what is a fact.  If it's disgusting it's only because society is disgusting for looking at me as though I'm different.  I am not denying anyone their right to claim their Jewish roots.  I am simply stating that, just like we don't see a lot of Arab-looking people in leading roles, we also don't see a lot of Jewish-looking people.  And this leads me to the conclusion that there is a bias against Jewish-looking people, or semitic-looking people.  You can decide what to call us.  My family looks Jewish.  If you saw them in a group of a hundred white people and you were asked who are the Jewish people, you would point to them.

Updated On: 4/27/23 at 01:56 AM

[A Director]

Posted: 4/27/23 at 2:09am

James Edwards2 - I am Jewish. I am troubled by posts because of your attempt to stir the post, your lack knowledege and your ignorance. Are you Jewish? In some posts you say you are and in others you don't mention this.  It's a simple YES or NO question.  If you are, why do you hide it?  Are you shamed oof being Jewish?  Was/is your family Jewish, but you have renounced the faith?

In your first post, you declare that Sean Hayes should not have been cast because he doesn't have Semitic features or mannerisms. You have been asked to define what you mean, but you refuse to do this? I am troubled because you appear to implying that all Jews look and act the same way. Should directors, producers, playwrights and casting  directors have a little check list for Jewish characters?  How many boxes should be checked before an actor is considered for a role?  By the way, does the actor who plays George Gershwin have Semitic features and mannerisms?.

Here a little history lesson for you. Do you know of or hear about the Immigration Act of 1924? "The Immigration Act of 1924, or Johnson–Reed Act, including the Asian Exclusion Act and National Origins Act (enacted May 26, 1924), was a United States federal law that prevented immigration from Asia and set quotas on the number of immigrants from Eastern and Southern Europe. It also authorized the creation of the country's first formal border control service, the U.S. Border Patrol, and established a "consular control system" that allowed entry only to those who first obtained a visa from a U.S. consulate abroad."  This remained on the books until the mid 1960s. At the time, many Jews in the arts changed their name in order to fit in.  At the time, many non-Jews said the Jews were NOT WHITE. Today, much of this has is all in the past.  On the other hand, there are people on the Right believe in the Replacement Theory, the Jews are going to take over the United States/the World.  Back in 2017, the young men who protested in Virginia chanted "Jews will not replace us."

Back to the theatre and your comments.  The goal of non-traditional casting is to no longer to exclude  performers from marginalized groups.  This also includes producers, directors, designers and production crews.

Back to the Jews.  The three best known Jews characters in dramatic literature are Shylock, Anne Frank and Tevye who are all from the past.  I'll throw in Fagin.  Their stories are unique, but they do not represent all Jews.  There are many more Jewish stories to tell. On a side note, when the authors of FIDDLER ON THE ROOF first approached Hal Prince about their show, he didn't understand the story. or characters.  Some would think Prince, a Jew, would not have a problem with show.   They would be wrong.  Prince's family  were German Jews and he didn't grow-up with the original stories.

James Edwards 2 -You believe you are being good to callout  the casting of Sean Hayes.  From my point of view, you are not.

[A Director]

Posted: 4/27/23 at 2:15am

James Edwards2 said: "PipingHotPiccolo said: "James Edwards2 said: "

You are right. Thank you again. I do not usually post on message boards and I am not nearly as articulate as you are."

It has nothing to do with being articulate. Theres a valid point to be made here but you keep haranguing and insulting people, you seem hysterical about the issue, and you end up making arguments that are the flipside of the anti semitic coin. I find your comments about "looking Semitic" to be utterly disgusting, and extremely exclusionary to Black Jews, Mexican Jews, the millions and millions of Arab Jews-- this kinda ignorance is really not a whole lot better than the filth Sutton Ross spits.

This Jonathan Cohen character, fresh off his absolutely dimwitted attempt to shoehorn Black Germans into Holocaust representation, is now *counting Jews like its 1933* and thats in response to your absolutely ridiculous comment that if Sean Hayes was Jewish he wouldnt have gotten anywhere. Uhm he shot to fame alongside Debra Messing, a proud Jew *playing a proud Jew.* So yeah, theres a double standard among the Woke Casting Police, but you have just gone off the rails here, and need to check yourself (or maybe just grow up a bit and gain some perspective, I dont know-- when I was 20 I didnt know how to pick my battles, like using this innocuous Sean Hayes Oscar Levant example to launch this debate).

But regardless, as someone else said, really do yourself a favor and STOP."

I think you misunderstand me. Maybe I'm not using the "correct" words. But why do I get so frequently asked if I'm Jewish if I don't look Jewish? Why did children in school make fun of me for not looking like they did? Are there other types of Jewish people? Yes. Are there Jewish people who look like Paul Rudd and you wouldn't know they're Jewish? Yes. I didn't create this society. For whatever reason, there are features that certain Jewish people have. In fact, many people can tell the difference between a Sephardic and an Ashkenazi Jew but looking at them. I am not excluding the Mexican or Black or other Jews from being Jewish. Please don't call me disgusting for stating what is a fact. If it's disgusting it's only because society is disgusting for looking at me as though I'm different. I am not denying anyone their right to claim their Jewish roots. I am simply stating that, just like we don't see a lot of Arab-looking people in leading roles, we also don't see a lot of Jewish-looking people. And this leads me to the conclusion that there is a bias against Jewish-looking people, or semitic-looking people. You can decide what to call us. My family looks Jewish. If you saw them in a group of a hundred white people and you were asked who are the Jewish people, you would point to them."

 

[A Director]

Posted: 4/27/23 at 2:19am

James Edwards2 said: "PipingHotPiccolo said: "James Edwards2 said: "

You are right. Thank you again. I do not usually post on message boards and I am not nearly as articulate as you are."

It has nothing to do with being articulate. Theres a valid point to be made here but you keep haranguing and insulting people, you seem hysterical about the issue, and you end up making arguments that are the flipside of the anti semitic coin. I find your comments about "looking Semitic" to be utterly disgusting, and extremely exclusionary to Black Jews, Mexican Jews, the millions and millions of Arab Jews-- this kinda ignorance is really not a whole lot better than the filth Sutton Ross spits.

This Jonathan Cohen character, fresh off his absolutely dimwitted attempt to shoehorn Black Germans into Holocaust representation, is now *counting Jews like its 1933* and thats in response to your absolutely ridiculous comment that if Sean Hayes was Jewish he wouldnt have gotten anywhere. Uhm he shot to fame alongside Debra Messing, a proud Jew *playing a proud Jew.* So yeah, theres a double standard among the Woke Casting Police, but you have just gone off the rails here, and need to check yourself (or maybe just grow up a bit and gain some perspective, I dont know-- when I was 20 I didnt know how to pick my battles, like using this innocuous Sean Hayes Oscar Levant example to launch this debate).

But regardless, as someone else said, really do yourself a favor and STOP."

I think you misunderstand me. Maybe I'm not using the "correct" words. But why do I get so frequently asked if I'm Jewish if I don't look Jewish? Why did children in school make fun of me for not looking like they did? Are there other types of Jewish people? Yes. Are there Jewish people who look like Paul Rudd and you wouldn't know they're Jewish? Yes. I didn't create this society. For whatever reason, there are features that certain Jewish people have. In fact, many people can tell the difference between a Sephardic and an Ashkenazi Jew but looking at them. I am not excluding the Mexican or Black or other Jews from being Jewish. Please don't call me disgusting for stating what is a fact. If it's disgusting it's only because society is disgusting for looking at me as though I'm different. I am not denying anyone their right to claim their Jewish roots. I am simply stating that, just like we don't see a lot of Arab-looking people in leading roles, we also don't see a lot of Jewish-looking people. And this leads me to the conclusion that there is a bias against Jewish-looking people, or semitic-looking people. You can decide what to call us. My family looks Jewish. If you saw them in a group of a hundred white people and you were asked who are the Jewish people, you would point to them."

James Edwards 2 - What in the hell do Jews look like?  You keep digging yourself into a hole.  If you don't stop, you get hair on your palms and will need glasses!

 

[PipingHotPiccolo]

Posted: 4/27/23 at 2:32am

James Edwards2 said: "PipingHotPiccolo said: "James Edwards2 said: "

You are right. Thank you again. I do not usually post on message boards and I am not nearly as articulate as you are."

It has nothing to do with being articulate. Theres a valid point to be made here but you keep haranguing and insulting people, you seem hysterical about the issue, and you end up making arguments that are the flipside of the anti semitic coin. I find your comments about "looking Semitic" to be utterly disgusting, and extremely exclusionary to Black Jews, Mexican Jews, the millions and millions of Arab Jews-- this kinda ignorance is really not a whole lot better than the filth Sutton Ross spits.

This Jonathan Cohen character, fresh off his absolutely dimwitted attempt to shoehorn Black Germans into Holocaust representation, is now *counting Jews like its 1933* and thats in response to your absolutely ridiculous comment that if Sean Hayes was Jewish he wouldnt have gotten anywhere. Uhm he shot to fame alongside Debra Messing, a proud Jew *playing a proud Jew.* So yeah, theres a double standard among the Woke Casting Police, but you have just gone off the rails here, and need to check yourself (or maybe just grow up a bit and gain some perspective, I dont know-- when I was 20 I didnt know how to pick my battles, like using this innocuous Sean Hayes Oscar Levant example to launch this debate).

But regardless, as someone else said, really do yourself a favor and STOP."

I think you misunderstand me. Maybe I'm not using the "correct" words. But why do I get so frequently asked if I'm Jewish if I don't look Jewish? Why did children in school make fun of me for not looking like they did? Are there other types of Jewish people? Yes. Are there Jewish people who look like Paul Rudd and you wouldn't know they're Jewish? Yes. I didn't create this society. For whatever reason, there are features that certain Jewish people have. In fact, many people can tell the difference between a Sephardic and an Ashkenazi Jew but looking at them. I am not excluding the Mexican or Black or other Jews from being Jewish. Please don't call me disgusting for stating what is a fact. If it's disgusting it's only because society is disgusting for looking at me as though I'm different. I am not denying anyone their right to claim their Jewish roots. I am simply stating that, just like we don't see a lot of Arab-looking people in leading roles, we also don't see a lot of Jewish-looking people. And this leads me to the conclusion that there is a bias against Jewish-looking people, or semitic-looking people. You can decide what to call us. My family looks Jewish. If you saw them in a group of a hundred white people and you were asked who are the Jewish people, you would point to them."

Every post you dig yourself deeper and deeper into this ridiculous hole. I am not misunderstanding you and your not using the "wrong words." You're just making poor arguments (your Sean Hayes point really blows up when you consider Debra Messing, right? So you drop it, and move on to some other moving-target gripe).

Yes, I am calling your views here ignorant and wrong. Of course people can look "jewish" the same way some people can look Italian or Irish or any other racial makeup but thats not set in stone, is irrelevant (esp when the "jewish" look is often a dumb stereotype). I am saying that bc you think you "look Jewish" or were told you "look Jewish" does not give you license to turn that around and spread it out into the world as some sort of fact, but even worse, to suggest that *casting directors employ the same subjective standard*--- does Scarlett Johanssen look Jewish? Does Jake Gyllehaal? Paula Abdul? Rebecca Naomi Jones? Oh, but people said YOU DO so, by all means, lets run the world based on that experience you had! 

Again, you're way past articulation issues or message board etiquette, and since I do understand the original point you were trying but failing to make, I am strongly suggesting you take the L here just in the sense that nothing you are saying is remotely convincing or logically sound.  You are dragging some very real issues re Jewish mistreatment and representation through the mud. Just stop it. 

Updated On: 4/27/23 at 02:32 AM

[James Edwards2]

Posted: 4/27/23 at 2:47am

A Director said: "James Edwards2 - I am Jewish. I am troubled by posts because of your attempt to stir the post, your lack knowledege and your ignorance. Are you Jewish? In some posts you say you are and in others you don't mention this. It's a simple YES or NO question. If you are, why do you hide it? Are you shamed oof being Jewish? Was/is your family Jewish, but you have renounced the faith?

In your first post, you declare that Sean Hayes should not have been cast because he doesn't have Semitic features or mannerisms. You have been asked to define what you mean, but you refuse to do this? I am troubled because you appear to implying that all Jews look and act the same way. Should directors, producers, playwrights and casting directors have a little check list for Jewish characters? How many boxes should be checked before an actor is considered for a role? By the way, does the actor who plays George Gershwin have Semitic features and mannerisms?.

Here a little history lesson for you. Do you know of or hear about the Immigration Act of 1924? "The Immigration Act of 1924, or Johnson–Reed Act, including the Asian Exclusion Act and National Origins Act (enacted May 26, 1924), was a United States federal law that prevented immigration from Asia and set quotas on the number of immigrants from Eastern and Southern Europe. It also authorized the creation of the country's first formal border control service, the U.S. Border Patrol, and established a "consular control system" that allowed entry only to those who first obtained a visa from a U.S. consulate abroad." This remained on the books until the mid 1960s. At the time, many Jews in the arts changed their name in order to fit in. At the time, many non-Jews said the Jews were NOT WHITE. Today, much of this has is all in the past. On the other hand, there are people on the Right believe in the Replacement Theory, the Jews are going to take over the United States/the World. Back in 2017, the young men who protested in Virginia chanted "Jews will not replace us."

Back to the theatre and your comments. The goal of non-traditional casting is to no longer to exclude performers from marginalized groups. This also includes producers, directors, designers and production crews.

Back to the Jews. The three best known Jews characters in dramatic literature are Shylock, Anne Frank and Tevye who are all from the past. I'll throw in Fagin. Their stories are unique, but they do not represent all Jews. There are many more Jewish stories to tell. On a side note, when the authors of FIDDLER ON THE ROOF first approached Hal Prince about their show, he didn't understand the story. or characters. Some would think Prince, a Jew, would not have a problem with show. They would be wrong. Prince's family were German Jews and he didn't grow-up with the original stories.

James Edwards 2 -You believe you are being good to callout the casting of Sean Hayes. From my point of view, you are not."

(Note: This is not all directed to A Director.  Upon reading your post again A Director, I believe the tone of it was not meant to be aggressive or insulting.  I realize you could read my post as aggressive and insulting too, though I am just trying to be clear and direct.)


I've said multiple times I am Jewish.  There's no confusion there.  I am Jewish.  100% by my DNA.  Ashkenazi Jew.  I also look Jewish.  I do not wish to describe what semitic features are because I find it offensive that I'm even being asked to do this.  I would never ask an Asian, Black or any other ethnicity to describe their features.  Though out of an inability to stand up for myself I did give examples of some things one might look for.  One of those things being the complexion of one's skin.  If Brad Pitt is playing a role, guess who isn't playing his father.  Judd Hirsch.  Why?  Because Judd Hirsch has semitic features and Brad Pitt does not.  Why are you even arguing with me about this?  It's not up for discussion.  It's like saying you don't see color.  And to answer your question, up until my 50's, I did try to hide my ethnicity because I felt unsafe and because I was ashamed.  The faith aspect of being a Jew has nothing to do with this conversation.  I have never been a practicing Jew.  I've never even stepped foot in a synagogue.  But this is not about religion.  This is about genetics and representation.  I am actually quite well-educated having graduated Dartmouth and then Cornell for medical school.  Words are not my thing.  But I do know about the history of the Jewish people.  And I know the reasons we all strive for representation on stage.  Which is why I bring up that MAYBE a Jewish actor should have played a Jewish character IF we're doing that for all other oppressed groups.  Are you not able to see that point?  Are you going to do Anne Frank with a white girl?  Probably not.  Do I personally see an issue with casting a white girl as Anne Frank?  I do not.  In fact, there have been productions of Anne Frank where Anne was Black.  I once saw a fully Asian productions of Fiddler and it was fantastic.  I have zero issue with this.  But like so many other posters here, I believe it has to go both ways.  If we're in the phase of casting Chinese to play Chinese, then we must also cast Jewish to play Jewish.  Jewish (not referring to the faith) people are not White (as you pointed out was the case in our not so recent history).  As you also pointed out, many Jewish people changed their names because they did not want it to be known they were Jewish.  For those who looked White enough to do that, it worked.  And for the others, it didn't work quite as well.  Say what you want, but there are plenty of people out there who still hide their Jewish roots.  And for good reason.  Because they are scared.  And putting White people in Jewish roles doesn't help people become less scared.  It makes us all think we cannot just be Jewish.  We have to change our names and get nose jobs and lighten our skin in order to feel like maybe we actually belong.  This has nothing to do with me being good.  It has to do with pointing out the utter hypocrisy at play.  Why not let Denzel to play Oscar Levant?  I bet he'd be great.  To me that is the same thing as casting Sean Hayes.  Neither of them are Ashkenazi Jews.  Oscar Levant was.  If that doesn't count as something to you, then there's nothing I can do to change that.

Updated On: 4/27/23 at 02:47 AM

[LePetiteFromage]

Posted: 4/27/23 at 3:26am

James Edwards2 said: "And to answer your question, up until my 50's, I did try to hide my ethnicity because I felt unsafe and because I was ashamed. The faith aspect of being a Jew has nothing to do with this conversation. I have never been a practicing Jew. I've never even stepped foot in a synagogue. But this is not about religion…. We have to change our names and get nose jobs and lighten our skin in order to feel like maybe we actually belong."

If I may James, it feels like this is the heart of your issue, which has nothing to do with Sean Hayes, racial factors in modern day casting, or even this message board.

All your posts like the one I’ve quoted above as well as your repeated pleas for us to explain why you were mistreated speak to a great deal of unresolved pain and trauma. You seem to be seeking an absolution or permission that you will not find on this or any message board. That is introspection and work you need to do with a professional or even someone like a Rabbi. Even though you say you’ve never practiced, I’m sure the shame caused by the antisemitism you’ve experienced would be well understood and they could help guide you to a place of healing.

You say you don’t have the words to express yourself and I think it’s because you aren’t upset about Sean Hayes playing a Jewish man, you are understandably and justifiably angered and traumatized by the antisemitism you’ve been subjected to, especially as a child. Hence your ardent refusal to define what a “Semitic look” is. Everyone who experienced othering during their formative years has had to work hard to overcome it. You’ve fixated on this show and the physical characteristics of Jewish people because it’s clearly the greatest source of trauma for you. This thread reads like a cry for help.

Unfortunately, all we can say here is that tragically, antisemitism is very real and you didn’t deserve to experience it. No one deserves such treatment for their race, religion, sexuality, or gender identity. Your pain and feelings are valid, but again, you are looking for answers and solutions that can’t be found online. 
 

I wish you well and hope you find healing.

[James Edwards2]

Posted: 4/27/23 at 3:52am

LePetiteFromage said: "James Edwards2 said: "And to answer your question, up until my 50's, I did try to hide my ethnicity because I felt unsafe and because I was ashamed. The faith aspect of being a Jew has nothing to do with this conversation. I have never been a practicing Jew. I've never even stepped foot in a synagogue. But this is not about religion…. We have to change our names and get nose jobs and lighten our skin in order to feel like maybe we actually belong."

If I may James, it feels like this is the heart of your issue, which has nothing to do with Sean Hayes, racial factors in modern day casting, or even this message board.

All your posts like the one I’ve quoted above as well as your repeated pleas for us to explain why you were mistreated speak to a great deal of unresolved pain and trauma. You seem to be seeking an absolution or permission that you will not find on this or any message board. That is introspection and work you need to do with a professional or even someone like a Rabbi. Even though you say you’ve never practiced, I’m sure the shame caused by the antisemitism you’ve experienced would be well understood and they could help guide you to a place of healing.

You say you don’t have the words to express yourself and I think it’s because you aren’t upset about Sean Hayes playing a Jewish man, you are understandably and justifiably angered and traumatized by the antisemitism you’ve been subjected to, especially as a child. Hence your ardent refusal to define what a “Semitic look” is. Everyone who experienced othering during their formative years has had to work hard to overcome it. You’ve fixated on this show and the physical characteristics of Jewish people because it’s clearly the greatest source of trauma for you. This thread reads like a cry for help.

Unfortunately, all we can say here is that tragically, antisemitism is very real and you didn’t deserve to experience it. No one deserves such treatment for their race, religion, sexuality, or gender identity. Your pain and feelings are valid, but again, you are looking for answers and solutions that can’t be found online.


I wish you well and hope you find healing."

Thank you for this thoughtful message.  I have been in therapy for decades and it has helped me greatly.  The notion of speaking to a rabbi is interesting though I am not someone who wishes to be a part of organized religion.  To be as clear as possible (I feel I've said this many times) I am not upset about Mr. Hayes playing this role.  I look forward to seeing him in it.  I was simply questioning why it was okay when it is not okay for other ethnic characters to be played by White people.  It was a simple question.  Certain people started to unravel the discussion and they definitely triggered me.  But I also believe that there is a such thing as Jewish white-washing (both from within and outside of the Jewish community) and it's disconcerting.  Everything I've said on this thread Sarah Silverman has also said though she has said it better.  As another poster brought up, this is the exact issue that stopped Kathryn Hahn from playing Joan Rivers.  I would bet she's looking at Sean wondering why he is getting to do this and she was stopped.  Thank you again for being thoughtful and kind to someone who does not normally post on message boards.

[Jonathan Cohen]

Posted: 4/27/23 at 4:22am

James Edwards2 said: "Your list of Jewish people nominated for Emmy's is all well and good but that is not reflective of what is actually on television. You just pointed out people who are getting nominations. It is very hard to find a character on a television who is Jewish. How many Jewish characters are there on Grey's Anatomy, for example? And then when there are Jewish characters, are they the leading men or women? They're usually sidekicks, or Jewish stereotypes. The same issue that BIPOC people face being relegated to secondary characters, Jewish people also face. And when the leading characters are Jewish you have a Mrs. Maisel situation where she is played by a very white-looking, non-Jewish woman. People have taken issue with that. And here we have the title character of a play about a historical Jewish figure played by a white-looking, non-Jewish man. I don't think it's objecitvely wrong, just wrong in the context of how we currently treat most other ethnicities. Again, you should check out Sarah Silverman talking about this. She can articulate it way better."

It turns out there have been two Jewish characters on Grey's Anatomy, which is generally speaking a pretty non-Jewish show. Cristina Yang played by Sandra Oh was apparently Jewish. I watched the show for many of the years she was on and never caught that, so I don't think that was a big point of emphasis. Also more recently Jake Borelli has played a character named Dr. Levi Schmitt, who apparently has had Jewish focused storylines. 

I think over the past 50 years there have always been Jews on TV, including playing lead roles, what's changed is that the Jewish characters can be more overtly Jewish. For example, Friends and Seinfeld are probably the most popular sitcoms of the last 30 years. 

On Friends, 2 of the 6 leads were played by Jewish actors, with the 3 of the 6 lead characters being Jewish (Lisa Kudrow oddly ended up playing a non-Jew). But them being Jewish rarely factored into the story. On Seinfeld, 3 of the 4 lead actors were Jewish, and the content was culturally incredibly Jewish but coded. So you had George Costanza, a character Jason Alexander modeled first on Woody Allen and then Larry David, comically being labeled as Italian, because someone was worried the show would come off as too Jewish. 

Recently, I think there is a lot more content with overly Jewish content and characters. Transparent, Crazy Ex-Girlfriend, The Goldbergs, Curb Your Enthusiasm, The Marvelous Mrs. Maisel, Fleishman is in Trouble, Hunters, My Unorthodox Life, Russian Doll, The Plot Against America, The Rehearsal, Big Mouth, and Difficult People come to mind. Israeli imports like Shtisel and Fauda are also popular on streaming. 

I'm not sure there's a study out that quantifies that representation, but Jewish people are only 2.2% of the American population, and I'm guessing Jews are represented in at least 2% of programing, even when you look only at leads. 

In terms of the quality of that representation, and Sarah Silverman's argument that Jewish characters should be played by Jewish actors, I think she makes a lot of great points. If that would make the content better or even more authentic, I think is pretty situational. 

For instance, should a Jewish actress be playing Mrs. Maisel? There's a great case for that. But I also know everything I both love and hate about The Marvelous Mrs. Maisel (which I've at times loved and now have completely stopped watching) can be traced to decisions by the show's creator Amy Sherman-Palladino, who is Jewish. I don't feel like there's something missing in Rachel Brosnahan's performance. 

I also think a lot about The Fabelmans around the question of casting Jews in Jewish roles. Did I buy Michelle Williams or Paul Dano as Jews in that movie? Not really. 

On the other hand, Judd Hirsch really is Jewish and I thought the Eastern European immigrant he played was the worst thing about the movie, a broad over-the-top stereotype (I don't care that he got an Oscar nomination for it). And Seth Rogen, who is also a Jew playing a Jew, I thought gave the best performance of the movie. 

Now if anyone agrees or disagrees with my take on that movie is kind of secondary. My point is sometimes having a Jew play a Jew will create a better performance, but not inherently.   

[JasonC3]

Posted: 4/27/23 at 7:20am

Thank you LePetiteFromage and Jonathan Cohen for the reasoned, measured, and thoughtful posts.

[BWAY Baby2]

Posted: 4/27/23 at 8:14am

Interesting discussion. My point about casting black people as celebrated Jews- but not casting white people or Jews as celebrated black people- ever- is what I find to be a double standard--Florenz Ziegfeld and a Lehman Brother being two recent examples. But, I see that has no traction on this board. 

 

Updated On: 4/27/23 at 08:14 AM

[Jonathan Cohen]

Posted: 4/27/23 at 1:03pm

BWAY Baby2 said: "Interesting discussion. My point about casting black people as celebrated Jews- but not casting white people or Jews as celebrated black people- ever- is what I find to be a double standard--Florenz Ziegfeld and a Lehman Brother being two recent examples. But, I see that has no traction on this board."

With Ziegfeld in Funny Girl, he primarily exists in the musical as an authority figure for Fanny Brice to push up against. I don't think his Jewish identity especially factors into the story, so it's an opportunity to bring more diversity to the casting to a show that already has a lot of Jewish representation.     

With The Lehman Trilogy leads, Adam Godley is Jewish, as far as I know the other two leads were not. Since Judaism is a religion not a skin tone, for me personally, the question is should it be Jewish actor, as opposed to a non-Jewish actor in the roles?

I don't inherently care that a Black actor is playing an Ashkenazi Jew. All of the actors in the play are playing multiple roles, so there's already a suspension of disbelief larger than in a play where actors are limited to one role. 

You can make a valid case that the three leads should have been cast with Jewish actors though. I will say that while the playwright Stefano Massini is not Jewish, the director Sam Mendes was and they brought on an orthodox rabbi as a technical adviser to make sure the Jewish elements of the play were as authentic as possible.

[henrikegerman]

Posted: 4/27/23 at 1:11pm

James Edwards2 said: "Oh okay, So you'd be okay with him playing a man of Asian descent or Latin or Black? If you would, then I can see why you'd have no issue here either. But if you wouldn't, then I think we can all just agree you're a hypocrite."

 

Or a person who recognizes that the imbalance issues of equity, diversion and inclusion that exist for Asian, Latino and Black actors simply do not exist for Jewish actors. 

For example, no one batted an eye when Janet Suzman played the Empress Alexandra or Claire Bloom played the Lady Anne or even when Sarah Bernhardt played ... everything. 

Nor should anyone have. 

Those castings were long ago.  In Bernhardt's case, two centuries ago. 

But today Black, Asian and Latin actors are often not even considered for white-identified or white-posited roles.  And when they are there is often a backlash.. The Little Mermaid and James Bond for instance.  

That is why as a Jewish person I have absolutely no issues with Oscar Levant or the Maisels or Fanny Brice being played by actors who are not Jewish. 

 

Updated On: 4/27/23 at 01:11 PM

[BWAY Baby2]

Posted: 4/27/23 at 1:46pm

I have to say- I thought the actor- who was black- did a great job in the Lehman Trilogy- and it is true he played multiple roles- is there any example of a Jew or any white person being cast in the role of any hispotirfcally black person? I can't think of any.

 

[Jonathan Cohen]

Posted: 4/27/23 at 2:10pm

BWAY Baby2 said: "I have to say- I thought the actor- who was black- did a great job in the Lehman Trilogy- and it is true he played multiple roles- is there any example of a Jew or any white person being cast in the role of any hispotirfcally black person? I can't think of any."

The historical part makes it harder, but Laurence Olivier in Othello, and Joseph Fiennes playing Michael Jackson are a couple of examples. 

With Blackface, there was a huge amount of White people playing Black people, but since the point was to caricature and demean them, I'm not sure how many real historically important figures would be represented because that would be conceding that there were historically important Black figures.    

 

[James Edwards2]

Posted: 4/27/23 at 2:25pm

henrikegerman said: "James Edwards2 said: "Oh okay, So you'd be okay with him playing a man of Asian descent or Latin or Black? If you would, then I can see why you'd have no issue here either. But if you wouldn't, then I think we can all just agree you're a hypocrite."



Or a person who recognizes that the imbalance issues of equity, diversion and inclusion that exist for Asian, Latino and Black actors simply do not exist for Jewish actors.
 

I can appreciate your perspective, but I'm not sure it's accurate.  I don't have time to actually crunch the numbers but there is a perspective from Jewish actors that this imbalance does exist for Jewish actors.  But here are some articles and videos that might be interesting to some.  I'm not sure I even agree with everything in them but it does illuminate a certain perspective.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ll6Ob4369vI

https://variety.com/2021/biz/features/jewish-hollywood-antisemitism-hyperbolic-caricatures-casting-jews-hate-crimes-1234997849/

https://pagesix.com/2021/10/04/sarah-silverman-says-hollywood-has-a-jewface-problem/

https://ew.com/movies/sarah-silverman-typecasting-jewish-actresses-howard-stern/

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IESSx_yqslw&t=40s

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q3g3N-b2Hb4