Sean Hayes / Oscar Levant - The Jewish Part- Page 4

[Matt Rogers]

Posted: 4/25/23 at 5:36pm

James Edwards2 said: "Sutton Ross said: "Yeah I'll never read any of that. Bye now!"

Why won't you read it? Are you just unapologetically anti-semitic? It would actually really help you in life to recognize what is clearly one of your blindspots. Seems you can dish it but you can't take it."

It’s best not to interact with that one and definitely don’t let them get to you. For some reason, they are allowed to behave like a petulant child on here without repercussions. I’ve had a temporary ban for far less than what they post on a daily basis. 

[kdogg36]

Posted: 4/25/23 at 5:40pm

James Edwards2 said: "Hayes would certainly NOT be allowed to do this with any other ethnicity. Would it be okay if Hayes were playing a Mexican man? Additionally, I'm not sure if the playwright or the director are Jewish."

I'm generally on the side of "let actors act," but many of us would say that there's (arguably) a crucial difference between these two scenarios: while Latino actors on Broadway have historically been severely limited in their opportunities, the same is not true for Jewish performers. When we (speaking optimistically) reach a point when these imbalances have been corrected, then there will be no reason to argue about this sort of thing.

Updated On: 4/25/23 at 05:40 PM

[Fan123]

Posted: 4/25/23 at 5:40pm

dramamama611 said: "It's not like there aren't plenty of Jewish performers on Broadway and Hollywood."

Lord knows I'm not an authority on these issues, but that's sort of what I thought as well. I haven't looked into this as a dedicated thing, but in reading about historical and current Hollywood/Broadway stars, it's not unusual to come across star performers who happen to have (or have had) Jewish heritage. The real-life Oscar Levant himself had a decent film and entertainment career. Certainly I wouldn't be surprised if, particularly historically, many Jewish performers didn't feel free to be open about their heritage, and/or the system favoured those with the "right" look above others, and/or the opportunities for Jewish performers to actually play Jewish were restricted. But I suppose what I'm trying to get at is, maybe the issue of 'taking' a role from another group, carries more weight in cases in which the group is/has been more severely underrepresented in the industry? (I mean, I don't know. Trying to define 'rules' around these issues is complicated to say the least.)

[BWAY Baby2]

Posted: 4/25/23 at 6:26pm

You can write me off as racist- but no one has told me why it is okay for black people to play celebrated Jews- whereas if a Jew played a Tuskegee Airman- it would be anathema. Generally, as long as there is no double standard- the best person for the role is acceptable in most cases- is a Jewish Tuskegee airman okay- if so- then no double standard exists- and I am fine with it. 

If acting really is acting- in ALL circumstances- I am fine with it- but if you think a Jew playing a black person would be deemed acceptable- you are deluded- and that is racism -. I deplore racism- but I think this is a valid point.

Updated On: 4/25/23 at 06:26 PM

[lily carver]

Posted: 4/25/23 at 6:30pm

Are you equally outraged that a non Jew ( Raul Esparza) is playing Fagin in the encores revival of Oliver?

Updated On: 4/25/23 at 06:30 PM

[BWAY Baby2]

Posted: 4/25/23 at 6:32pm

No. Would it be okay for a Jew to play a Tuskegee Airman? 

If not, why not? And do you not think there would be a huge outcry if a Jew did play a celebrated black person? Personally, I am fine with all choices if everything goes and there are no double standards.

Updated On: 4/25/23 at 06:32 PM

[BWAY Baby2]

Posted: 4/25/23 at 6:41pm

So you would be okay with a Jew playing a Tuskegee airman? Well, let me tell you - that would be considered unacceptable- and that is what I am pointing out.

No- pointing that out is not racist.

Updated On: 4/25/23 at 06:41 PM

[lily carver]

Posted: 4/25/23 at 6:44pm

well I actually meant that for James Edwards ( also the name of of the great African American film actors ironically) but I don't post here much and I thought I replied to him but  no it would not be OK for any WHITE person ( Jew , Christian, Muslim etc) to play a black person. I am a Jew and I find this discussion nuts. Judaism is not an ethnicity. There is no makeup that will make a white person black or Hispanic no matter how good an actor they are.

[Esther2]

Posted: 4/25/23 at 6:55pm

Because for once, other than a couple of folks (one in particular), the discussion has been free of vitriol and people are actually discussing something that can be important in a reasonable manner. 

I'm mostly impressed.  I sincerely hope it doesn't go off the rails. 

 

ETA:  I was replying to someone on page 2 asking why the thread hadn't been deleted - meant to quote and not just reply. 

Updated On: 4/25/23 at 06:55 PM

[BWAY Baby2]

Posted: 4/25/23 at 6:56pm

If we are going to cast the best person for each role- what difference does it make the color of the person? If it is okay to have a black Lehman brother- then it is okay to have a white, Jewish Tuskegee Airman- or is it only okay for anyone to play Jews- but not okay for a Jew to play a black person? But, sadly- that is not the case- and you know it. I am trying to point out an inconsistency- hypocrisy-  that is being accepted and that I view as racist and unfair. Personally, if we want to cast as a color blind society- than it has to go both ways- and it absolutely does not.

 

Updated On: 4/25/23 at 06:56 PM

[kdogg36]

Posted: 4/25/23 at 6:59pm

BWAY Baby2 said: "No. Would it be okay for a Jew to play a Tuskegee Airman?

If not, why not? And do you not think there would be a huge outcry if a Jew did play a celebrated black person? Personally, I am fine with all choices if everything goes and there are no double standards."

Well, an exception to "everything goes" will always be works where discrimination based on skin color is an explicit theme. Can you imagine that not being true of anything written about the Tuskegee Airmen?

Updated On: 4/25/23 at 06:59 PM

[BWAY Baby2]

Posted: 4/25/23 at 7:04pm

I agree with you- if the story is based on discrimination- then of course that could be an exception. However, please name me one- only one- role where a white person- or a Jew- portrayed a celebrated person of color- similar to a Lehman Brother or Florenz Ziegfeld. 

[Someone in a Tree2]

Posted: 4/25/23 at 8:05pm

Whoever brought up the casting of the black actor in Lehman Trilogy is bringing a salient point. I thought the actor was perfectly fine; in fact I thought the white actors were also perfectly fine. But not a one of them felt like actual Ashkenazi Jews or the descendants of Ashkenazi Jews. They were skillful actors impersonating something remote from themselves. How much more moved would I have been with actual Ashkenazi Jews playing the parts I cannot say because the production wouldn’t let me find out. And this in a play specifically about antisemitism in its essence. And that’s my point. 
Acting a character is not equal to BEING the character, no matter how skillful the attempt. 

Updated On: 4/25/23 at 08:05 PM

[kdogg36]

Posted: 4/25/23 at 8:08pm

BWAY Baby2 said: "I agree with you- if the story is based on discrimination- then of course that could be an exception. However, please name me one- only one- role where a white person- or a Jew- portrayed a celebrated person of color- similar to a Lehman Brother or Florenz Ziegfeld."

I can't. I think that's because the story of any celebrated person of color will pretty much inevitably involve at least an implied struggle against racism. Black people face inherent challenges that white people never face.

[PipingHotPiccolo]

Posted: 4/25/23 at 8:45pm

Someone in a Tree2 said: "Whoever brought up the casting of the black actor in Lehman Trilogy is bringing a salient point. I thought the actor was perfectly fine; in fact I thought the white actors were also perfectly fine. But not a one of them felt like actual Ashkenazi Jews or the descendants of Ashkenazi Jews. They were skillful actors impersonating something remote from themselves. How much more moved would I have been with actual Ashkenazi Jews playing the parts I cannot say because the production wouldn’t let me find out. And this in a play specifically about antisemitism in its essence. And that’s my point.
Acting a character is not equal to BEING the character, no matter how skillful the attempt."

This is like saying you couldn't get into Hamilton because Burr was really white. These men were playing ALL the characters. Wild to think the color of one's skin would matter. Once the show wasnt casting Jews and was having three men play 300 ppl of varying ages, its a bit shocking to hear you say "but the Black guy took me out of it." Beale spent a few minutes pretending to be a small child. And AGAIN there are many many Black Jews! My family is full of them.

I think, to quote Obama, theres a circular firing squad element to this game where representation turns into checking boxes to make sure Jean Valjean is REALLY French and Maria is REALLY Puerto Rican. If they can sell the role--and that doesnt mean just having Natalie Wood attempt a Spanish accent-- let them ACT. This fever will die down and sanity will prevail. 

BUT in the meantime, yes, its very strange that some ppl simply insist on these New Rules and then promptly excuse Jews from them. Sutton Ross' persistent ignorance on this point is a prime example but that ugliness is just emblematic of a deeper problem, where some fool on a message board can so confidently dispute plain genetic science, with little pushback from the crowd.  

[PipingHotPiccolo]

Posted: 4/25/23 at 8:53pm

BWAY Baby2 said: "I agree with you- if the story is based on discrimination- then of course that could be an exception. However, please name me one- only one- role where a white person- or a Jew- portrayed a celebrated person of color- similar to a Lehman Brother or Florenz Ziegfeld."

I agree with you that there a double standard, as i keep saying, that should irk everyone, re Jews. It dovetails with the way Jews have been discriminated against--- as being TOO powerful, as being TOO poor and dirty, and being disloyal bc they're stateless, to now being disloyal bec theres a jewish state. 

but your example is off. A Tuskegee airman appearing in a play is inherently going to be a role based on race. it would be wild to have a White person play that role (i couldnt stand what West Side Story revival did in this regard in 2020-- racial makeup is the whole POINT and they made it impossible to follow). Similarly, if they cast a Black person to play a Holocaust victim it would be jarring, only bc of the historical role being portrayed. 

 

[Jonathan Cohen]

Posted: 4/25/23 at 10:36pm

PipingHotPiccolo said: "BWAY Baby2 said: " Similarly, if they cast a Black person to play a Holocaust victim it would be jarring, only bc of the historical role being portrayed."

Black Germans were a discriminated against group during the Holocaust, and were also murdered. Additionally, Black POWs were treated worse than White POWs by the Nazis. The Holocaust sucked for everyone.  

[James Edwards2]

Posted: 4/25/23 at 10:43pm

BUT in the meantime, yes, its very strange that some ppl simply insist on these New Rules and then promptly excuse Jews from them. Sutton Ross' persistent ignorance on this point is a prime example but that ugliness is just emblematic of a deeper problem, where some fool on a message board can so confidently dispute plain genetic science, with little pushback from the crowd."

Thank you for all of this.  I was very surprised by how little pushback there was, though now that she has gone a good discussion seems to have occurred here.  

In response to a previous (very polite) post about Jewish people being well-represented on Broadway and in Hollywood.  The phrase that always strikes me is - "Wait, Paul Rudd is Jewish?"   Yes, there are Jews who have had very successful acting careers as leading men and women, but they are rarely (if ever) semitic looking.  They rarely (if ever) play Jewish roles.  They're usually white-passing.  Let's not forget that in very recent times Italians were not considered "white."  And the fact that people can be surprised that Paul Rudd is Jewish is further proof that there are physical traits associated with being Jewish.

Would I have a problem watching an Asian Tevye?  Absolutely not.  Would I have a problem watching a black Engineer in Miss Saigon?  Absolutely not.  And I wouldn't have a problem watching a Jewish Engineer either.  Would it maybe be a little strange?  Maybe.  Or it would just be theater, which is already strange if you think about it.  

The fact that Mr. Hayes had this play written for himself also makes this a bit more confusing.  If the play had been written for a Jewish man, it might have explored Levant's background a bit more.  It seems to me that Levant's heritage, his immigrant parents, the Holocaust, the fact that he did look Jewish in a world where people were actively trying to decimate Jews - all of those things might have played a large role in the development of Levant's humor and struggles with mental illness.  And it might have led to a better play.

[PipingHotPiccolo]

Posted: 4/25/23 at 10:44pm

Jonathan Cohen said: "PipingHotPiccolo said: "BWAY Baby2 said: "Similarly, if they cast a Black person to play a Holocaust victim it would be jarring, only bc of the historical role being portrayed."

Black Germans were a discriminated against group during the Holocaust, and were also murdered. Additionally, Black POWs were treated worse than White POWs by the Nazis. The Holocaust sucked for everyone."

....I don't doubt that Black Germans were persecuted by Nazis but I also would be shocked to learn there were more than a handful of Black people living in 1930/40s Germany. Educate me if im wrong? I've studied Modern European History extensively and I've never heard of, or seen evidence of, any Black prisoners in camps (though I dont doubt Nazi hatred of them, of course.... the eventual plan was the decimation of everyone non-White, the Jews were just first).

But regardless, are you suggesting a Black actor should credibly play a victim of the *Holocaust*? What are you possibly talking about?

 

[BroadwayNYC2]

Posted: 4/25/23 at 10:51pm

I’m so sick of other Jewish people speaking for me, a Jewish person. Have your moment but this so ain’t it. 
 

and anybody else, don’t bother responding with the “THIS!” nonsense

[Jonathan Cohen]

Posted: 4/25/23 at 11:01pm

PipingHotPiccolo said: "Black Germans were a discriminated against group during the Holocaust, and were also murdered. Additionally, Black POWs were treated worse than White POWs by the Nazis. The Holocaust sucked for everyone."

....I don't doubt that Black Germans were persecuted by Nazis but I also would be shocked to learn there were more than a handful of Black people living in 1930/40s Germany. Educate me if im wrong? I've studied Modern European History extensively and I've never heard of, or seen evidence of, any Black prisoners in camps (though I dont doubt Nazi hatred of them, of course.... the eventual plan was the decimation of everyone non-White, the Jews were just first).

But regardless, are you suggesting a Black actor should credibly play a victim of the *Holocaust*? What are you possibly talking about?"

Yes, that's what I'm saying. 

Black people were victims of the Holocaust. So were gay men, Communists, Roma, Jehovah's Witnesses, Germans with disabilities, etc... 

6 million Jews died in the Holocaust, but the stories of other victims can also be credibly represented in art.  

[PipingHotPiccolo]

Posted: 4/25/23 at 11:18pm

Jonathan Cohen said: "PipingHotPiccolo said: "Black Germans were a discriminated against group during the Holocaust, and were also murdered. Additionally, Black POWs were treated worse than White POWs by the Nazis. The Holocaust sucked for everyone."

....I don't doubt that Black Germans were persecuted by Nazis but I also would be shocked to learn there were more than a handful of Black people living in 1930/40s Germany. Educate me if im wrong? I've studied Modern European History extensively and I've never heard of, or seen evidence of, any Black prisoners in camps (though I dont doubt Nazi hatred of them, of course.... the eventual plan was the decimation of everyone non-White, the Jews were just first).

But regardless, are you suggesting a Black actor should credibly play a victim of the *Holocaust*? What are you possibly talking about?"

Yes, that's what I'm saying.

Black people were victims of the Holocaust. So were gay men, Communists,Roma,Jehovah's Witnesses,Germans with disabilities, etc...

6 million Jews died in the Holocaust, but the stories of other victims can also be credibly represented in art."

Oh so youre trying to tell us all that you know that there were non-Jewish victims of the Germans? Is that the point? And maybe I'm wrong for just assuming everyone knew that? (You know the very headline of the article you just shared LEADS WITH "there was no systematic program targeting Black people..."

Because it SOUNDS like you're saying that the Scottsboro Boys revival (may we see it soon) can cast some White Jewish guys to play those roles because there were Jews lynched in the Deep South, so it would be appropriate. That *cant* be what you're saying though, because my brain just can't withstand something that asinine, so i'll assume i misunderstood, and agree that, yes, the Germans hated anyone that wasn't White, and murdered as many of them as they could get their hands on, with primary emphasis on the Jews. 

[TheatreMonkey]

Posted: 4/25/23 at 11:31pm

Updated On: 4/26/23 at 11:31 PM

[PipingHotPiccolo]

Posted: 4/25/23 at 11:42pm

im breathing fine. i know the source. im not disputing a single historical fact for a minute. in a discussion about Jewish representation, and the pros/cons of what actors should play what roles, the suggestion that a story about the Holocaust--which refers to the extermination of European Jews during WWII- could credibly be played by an actor of color NOT because we are all for colorblind casting but because Black Germans were also murdered by Germans, is absolutely insulting and wildly ignorant. Find a historian at the US Holocaust Museum that would ever get on board this moral backwardness.

NOW if someone wrote a play about the Black experience in 1940 Berlin-- id buy a ticket for opening night, what a fascinating and undertold story. But it wouldn't be billed as "This Is the Holocaust Too" just like Parade isn't titled "A Jim Crow Story" because that would be offensively preposterous.

[Jonathan Cohen]

Posted: 4/26/23 at 1:26am

PipingHotPiccolo said: "im breathing fine. i know the source. im not disputing a single historical fact for a minute. in a discussion about Jewish representation, and the pros/cons of what actors should play what roles, the suggestion that a story about the Holocaust--which refers to the extermination of European Jews during WWII- could credibly be played by an actor of color NOT because we are all for colorblind casting but because Black Germans were also murdered by Germans, is absolutely insulting and wildly ignorant. Find a historian at the US Holocaust Museum that would ever get on board this moral backwardness.

NOW if someone wrote a play about the Black experience in 1940 Berlin-- id buy a ticket for opening night, what a fascinating and undertold story. But it wouldn't be billed as "This Is the Holocaust Too" just like Parade isn't titled "A Jim Crow Story" because that would be offensively preposterous."

I think our disagreement, on this point at least, is over labeling not facts. When I'm referring to the Holocaust, I'm referring to all of the people who were victims of the Nazis, not just the Jews. I understand, that for a lot people, the victims of the Holocaust inherently have to be Jewish, to clarify that they were the primary intended target of the genocide.

I respect that academic position and your agreeing with it. I personally think that definition diminishes the non-Jews who were persecuted and murdered at the same time by the exact same people. But I'm not trying to have that discussion, I'm just saying I was framing my answer in the context of also considering non-Jews to be victims of the Holocaust. 

If the main thrust of your original question was can a Black actor play an Ashkenazi Jew in the Holocaust, my answer would be it depends on the circumstances. It's certainly not the most likely or obvious casting. But if a Black actor had an authentic connection to the role, like they're Jewish and their grandparent or great-grandparent was an Ashkenazi Jew in the Holocaust?

 Go for it. The casting will be jarring for two seconds and then the audience would move on. 

The larger point I'm making is representation doesn't always have to mean the same thing. And when casting a character who was a real person, you inherently have to pick and chose what aspects of that person are represented on stage.  

Sean Hayes isn't Jewish but he is a funny guy who really does play the piano. Isn't that also accurately representing aspects of Oscar Levant?  It was enough for me when I saw the play but I can also understand other people wanting a Jewish actor being cast as a priority. 

I recently went to an Ariana DeBose concert and she told a story, about how years ago she was cast as the understudy for a show (I believe the role was Diana Ross in Motown: The Musical). When the lead left, she asked to be considered for Ross full time and was told she's Black enough to be the understudy but too light skinned to play the part full time.

Now I'm not saying that decision about DeBose was right or wrong, but I do think these representation questions are project specific. Depending on what's being emphasized in the work, an actor's ethnicity, skin color, or religious background could either be incredibly important or secondary for the casting decision.