Sean Hayes / Oscar Levant - The Jewish Part — Page 4

James Edwards2 said: "Sutton Ross said: "Yeah I'll never read any of that. Bye now!"

Why won't you read it? Are you just unapologetically anti-semitic? It would actually really help you in life to recognize what is clearly one of your blindspots. Seems you can dish it but you can't take it."

It’s best not to interact with that one and definitely don’t let them get to you. For some reason, they are allowed to behave like a petulant child on here without repercussions. I’ve had a temporary ban for far less than what they post on a daily basis.

dramamama611 said: "It's not like there aren't plenty of Jewish performers on Broadway and Hollywood."

Lord knows I'm not an authority on these issues, but that's sort of what I thought as well. I haven't looked into this as a dedicated thing, but in reading about historical and current Hollywood/Broadway stars, it's not unusual to come across star performers who happen to have (or have had) Jewish heritage. The real-life Oscar Levant himself had a decent film and entertainment career. Certainly I wouldn't be surprised if, particularly historically, many Jewish performers didn't feel free to be open about their heritage, and/or the system favoured those with the "right" look above others, and/or the opportunities for Jewish performers to actually play Jewish were restricted. But I suppose what I'm trying to get at is, maybe the issue of 'taking' a role from another group, carries more weight in cases in which the group is/has been more severely underrepresented in the industry? (I mean, I don't know. Trying to define 'rules' around these issues is complicated to say the least.)

Are you equally outraged that a non Jew ( Raul Esparza) is playing Fagin in the encores revival of Oliver?

Updated On: 4/25/23 at 06:30 PM

So you would be okay with a Jew playing a Tuskegee airman? Well, let me tell you - that would be considered unacceptable- and that is what I am pointing out.

No- pointing that out is not racist.

Updated On: 4/25/23 at 06:41 PM

Because for once, other than a couple of folks (one in particular), the discussion has been free of vitriol and people are actually discussing something that can be important in a reasonable manner.

I'm mostly impressed. I sincerely hope it doesn't go off the rails.



ETA: I was replying to someone on page 2 asking why the thread hadn't been deleted - meant to quote and not just reply.

Updated On: 4/25/23 at 06:55 PM

BWAY Baby2 said: "No. Would it be okay for a Jew to play a Tuskegee Airman?

If not, why not? And do you not think there would be a huge outcry if a Jew did play a celebrated black person? Personally, I am fine with all choices if everything goes and there are no double standards."

Well, an exception to "everything goes" will always be works where discrimination based on skin color is an explicit theme. Can you imagine that not being true of anything written about the Tuskegee Airmen?

Updated On: 4/25/23 at 06:59 PM

Whoever brought up the casting of the black actor in Lehman Trilogy is bringing a salient point. I thought the actor was perfectly fine; in fact I thought the white actors were also perfectly fine. But not a one of them felt like actual Ashkenazi Jews or the descendants of Ashkenazi Jews. They were skillful actors impersonating something remote from themselves. How much more moved would I have been with actual Ashkenazi Jews playing the parts I cannot say because the production wouldn’t let me find out. And this in a play specifically about antisemitism in its essence. And that’s my point.
Acting a character is not equal to BEING the character, no matter how skillful the attempt.

Updated On: 4/25/23 at 08:05 PM

Someone in a Tree2 said: "Whoever brought up the casting of the black actor in Lehman Trilogy is bringing a salient point. I thought the actor was perfectly fine; in fact I thought the white actors were also perfectly fine. But not a one of them felt like actual Ashkenazi Jews or the descendants of Ashkenazi Jews. They were skillful actors impersonating something remote from themselves. How much more moved would I have been with actual Ashkenazi Jews playing the parts I cannot say because the production wouldn’t let me find out. And this in a play specifically about antisemitism in its essence. And that’s my point.
Acting a character is not equal to BEING the character, no matter how skillful the attempt."

This is like saying you couldn't get into Hamilton because Burr was really white. These men were playing ALL the characters. Wild to think the color of one's skin would matter. Once the show wasnt casting Jews and was having three men play 300 ppl of varying ages, its a bit shocking to hear you say "but the Black guy took me out of it." Beale spent a few minutes pretending to be a small child. And AGAIN there are many many Black Jews! My family is full of them.

I think, to quote Obama, theres a circular firing squad element to this game where representation turns into checking boxes to make sure Jean Valjean is REALLY French and Maria is REALLY Puerto Rican. If they can sell the role--and that doesnt mean just having Natalie Wood attempt a Spanish accent-- let them ACT. This fever will die down and sanity will prevail.

BUT in the meantime, yes, its very strange that some ppl simply insist on these New Rules and then promptly excuse Jews from them. Sutton Ross' persistent ignorance on this point is a prime example but that ugliness is just emblematic of a deeper problem, where some fool on a message board can so confidently dispute plain genetic science, with little pushback from the crowd.

PipingHotPiccolo said: "BWAY Baby2 said: " Similarly, if they cast a Black person to play a Holocaust victim it would be jarring, only bc of the historical role being portrayed."

Black Germans were a discriminated against group during the Holocaust, and were also murdered. Additionally, Black POWs were treated worse than White POWs by the Nazis. The Holocaust sucked for everyone.

Jonathan Cohen said: "PipingHotPiccolo said: "BWAY Baby2 said: "Similarly, if they cast a Black person to play a Holocaust victim it would be jarring, only bc of the historical role being portrayed."

Black Germans were a discriminated against group during the Holocaust, and were also murdered. Additionally, Black POWs were treated worse than White POWs by the Nazis. The Holocaust sucked for everyone."

....I don't doubt that Black Germans were persecuted by Nazis but I also would be shocked to learn there were more than a handful of Black people living in 1930/40s Germany. Educate me if im wrong? I've studied Modern European History extensively and I've never heard of, or seen evidence of, any Black prisoners in camps (though I dont doubt Nazi hatred of them, of course.... the eventual plan was the decimation of everyone non-White, the Jews were just first).

But regardless, are you suggesting a Black actor should credibly play a victim of the *Holocaust*? What are you possibly talking about?

PipingHotPiccolo said: "Black Germans were a discriminated against group during the Holocaust, and were also murdered. Additionally, Black POWs were treated worse than White POWs by the Nazis. The Holocaust sucked for everyone."

....I don't doubt that Black Germans were persecuted by Nazis but I also would be shocked to learn there were more than a handful of Black people living in 1930/40s Germany. Educate me if im wrong? I've studied Modern European History extensively and I've never heard of, or seen evidence of, any Black prisoners in camps (though I dont doubt Nazi hatred of them, of course.... the eventual plan was the decimation of everyone non-White, the Jews were just first).

But regardless, are you suggesting a Black actor should credibly play a victim of the *Holocaust*? What are you possibly talking about?"

Yes, that's what I'm saying.

Black people were victims of the Holocaust. So were gay men, Communists, Roma, Jehovah's Witnesses, Germans with disabilities, etc...

6 million Jews died in the Holocaust, but the stories of other victims can also be credibly represented in art.

Updated On: 4/26/23 at 11:31 PM

PipingHotPiccolo said: "im breathing fine. i know the source. im not disputing a single historical fact for a minute. in a discussion about Jewish representation, and the pros/cons of what actors should play what roles, the suggestion that a story about the Holocaust--which refers to the extermination of European Jews during WWII- could credibly be played by an actor of color NOT because we are all for colorblind casting but because Black Germans were also murdered by Germans, is absolutely insulting and wildly ignorant. Find a historian at the US Holocaust Museum that would ever get on board this moral backwardness.

NOW if someone wrote a play about the Black experience in 1940 Berlin-- id buy a ticket for opening night, what a fascinating and undertold story. But it wouldn't be billed as "This Is the Holocaust Too" just like Parade isn't titled "A Jim Crow Story" because that would be offensively preposterous."

I think our disagreement, on this point at least, is over labeling not facts. When I'm referring to the Holocaust, I'm referring to all of the people who were victims of the Nazis, not just the Jews. I understand, that for a lot people, the victims of the Holocaust inherently have to be Jewish, to clarify that they were the primary intended target of the genocide.

I respect that academic position and your agreeing with it. I personally think that definition diminishes the non-Jews who were persecuted and murdered at the same time by the exact same people. But I'm not trying to have that discussion, I'm just saying I was framing my answer in the context of also considering non-Jews to be victims of the Holocaust.

If the main thrust of your original question was can a Black actor play an Ashkenazi Jew in the Holocaust, my answer would be it depends on the circumstances. It's certainly not the most likely or obvious casting. But if a Black actor had an authentic connection to the role, like they're Jewish and their grandparent or great-grandparent was an Ashkenazi Jew in the Holocaust?

Go for it. The casting will be jarring for two seconds and then the audience would move on.

The larger point I'm making is representation doesn't always have to mean the same thing. And when casting a character who was a real person, you inherently have to pick and chose what aspects of that person are represented on stage.

Sean Hayes isn't Jewish but he is a funny guy who really does play the piano. Isn't that also accurately representing aspects of Oscar Levant? It was enough for me when I saw the play but I can also understand other people wanting a Jewish actor being cast as a priority.

I recently went to an Ariana DeBose concert and she told a story, about how years ago she was cast as the understudy for a show (I believe the role was Diana Ross in Motown: The Musical). When the lead left, she asked to be considered for Ross full time and was told she's Black enough to be the understudy but too light skinned to play the part full time.

Now I'm not saying that decision about DeBose was right or wrong, but I do think these representation questions are project specific. Depending on what's being emphasized in the work, an actor's ethnicity, skin color, or religious background could either be incredibly important or secondary for the casting decision.