Sean Hayes / Oscar Levant - The Jewish Part- Page 2

[James Edwards2]

Posted: 4/24/23 at 10:16pm

inception said: "I haven't seen the play. I know Levant from.some of his films. Wikipedia says he was born in Pittsburgh and moved to NY when he was 16.

I wonder if what the OP calls a Jewish accent & mannerisms, might actually be a stereotypical New York accent? Sort of like Seinfeld. The characters are all Jewish New Yorkers, but when I travel to New York pretty much everyone sounds like they're from an episode of Seinfeld no matter their race or religion. Whenever I come back from a trip to NYC and people who have never been ask what it was like, I always it is like walking into an episode of Seinfeld. The show is spot on about how people in NYC talk and behave. Probably for New Yorkers the show doesn't even seem like a comedy, but a documentary."

Yes, I can see why you might say that, but that's like going to the south and saying everyone there sounds the same and has the same mannerisms.  If you look more closely you will find a wide range of accents and mannerisms in the south that might not be apparent at first glance.  But really I am talking about the fact that Hayes does not have semitic features. He also does not have Asian features and we would not cast him in an Asian role.  We did this once with Jonathan Pryce (even though he does have some Asian DNA) in Miss Saigon and there was huge outrage.  Hayes also doesn't likely fully understand what it is to be a Jewish man (especially living in that time).  And it's also very possible they do not address his heritage in the play because Hayes isn't Jewish.  Maybe they would have with a Jewish actor.  Maybe the play could have gotten to even deeper place with this exploration.  

[Sutton Ross]

Posted: 4/24/23 at 10:21pm

Imagine if they cast a straight white man in Kinky Boots instead of Billy Porter.  You can't, because it never would have happened.

That's correct. Equating race (born that way), sexual orientation (born that way) with RELIGION (a choice) is ignorant and gross. 

By the way, reading nearly every review on this brilliant show, none have seemed to mention his religion because nobody cares. Don't go if you're soooo offended, it truly won't matter. Just because ones parents are religious doesn't mean that person will be. 

Oh, and if you think a Jewish person plays a Jewish character better head on over to Funny Girl, perhaps you'll learn a thing or two. 

[JasonC3]

Posted: 4/24/23 at 10:22pm

Maybe you may wish to consider that you've made your point and others simply feel differently.

[Highland Guy]

Posted: 4/24/23 at 10:26pm

James Edwards2 said: "But really I am talking about the fact that Hayes does not have semitic features."

I don't know how to respond to that.  Semitic features?  Biting my tongue.

I suspect that you've been trolling us and that you enjoy the attention.

Updated On: 4/24/23 at 10:26 PM

[James Edwards2]

Posted: 4/24/23 at 10:34pm

Sutton Ross said: "Imagine if they cast a straight white man in Kinky Boots instead of Billy Porter. You can't, because it never would have happened.

That's correct. Equating race (born that way), sexual orientation (born that way) with RELIGION (a choice) is ignorant and gross.

By the way, reading nearly every review on this brilliant show, none have seemed to mention his religion because nobody cares. Don't go if you're soooo offended, it truly won't matter. Just because ones parents are religious doesn't mean that person will be.

Oh, and if you think a Jewish person plays a Jewish character better head on over to Funny Girl, perhaps you'll learn a thing or two."

You want to learn a thing or two?  You might want to read this a few times.  (I'm aggressive here to match your level of aggression on a topic you seem to know little about.)  Being Jewish can simply be a religious choice, yes.  You can decide to be Jewish with regards to religion.  But you cannot decide to be Jewish with regards to your DNA.  Jewish is an ethnicity just like every other ethnicity.  It is determined by your DNA.  So before you go making grand statements about what you can and can't choose in your life, do a little research because you're starting to sound a little anti-semitic.  In fact, sexual orientation is more of a "choice" as you put it than being genetically Jewish is.  23 and me can't tell your sexual orientation, but it can tell you if you're Jewish.  And certain people have semitic features which are a physical manifestation of their Jewish roots.  Physical features do not tell us someone's sexuality.  And Lea Michelle is half Jewish and she has semitic features.  So what's your point?

And yes JasonC3, you're right.  I have made my point.  I guess I'm just still surprised by the blindness of this community and how poorly the nation has done at educating people on what a Jew is.  And I don't blame anyone, I too was very unclear about this until late into adulthood.  So I guess I just want to spread the knowledge. 

[Sutton Ross]

Posted: 4/24/23 at 10:36pm

Yeah I'll never read any of that. Bye now! 

[James Edwards2]

Posted: 4/24/23 at 10:38pm

Sutton Ross said: "Yeah I'll never read any of that. Bye now!"

Why won't you read it?  Are you just unapologetically anti-semitic?  It would actually really help you in life to recognize what is clearly one of your blindspots.  Seems you can dish it but you can't take it.

[Dollypop]

Posted: 4/24/23 at 10:45pm

Does an actor have to be Danish to play Hamlet?

Does an actress have to be British to play Anna Leon Owen's?

Must the entire cast of GIGI be French?

Does an actor playing Caliban have to actually be half beast?

 

A true actor BECOMES the character he's playing.

As someone of Italian/Polish heritage who has done four productions of FIDDLER down through the years, I have been honored to become Jewish for the hours I've been on stage in those productions.

It's called ACTING.

 

[Highland Guy]

Posted: 4/24/23 at 10:48pm

James Edwards2 said: "Are you just unapologetically anti-semitic? "

Enough.  Watch your words.

 

 

[James Edwards2]

Posted: 4/24/23 at 10:48pm

Dollypop said: "Does an actor have to be Danish to play Hamlet?

Does an actress have to be British to play Anna Leon Owen's?

Must the entire cast of GIGI be French?

Does an actor playing Caliban have to actually be half beast?



A true actor BECOMES the character he's playing.

As someone of Italian/Polish heritage who has done four productions of FIDDLER down through the years, I have been honored to become Jewish for the hours I've been on stage in those productions.

It's called ACTING.

"

I agree with you.  But you must draw the line somewhere, no?  Where do you draw the line?  Would you play a paraplegic?  I see nothing wrong with it, but many people would. 

 

[HenryTDobson]

Posted: 4/24/23 at 10:51pm

Why hasn't this thread been deleted yet?

[James Edwards2]

Posted: 4/24/23 at 10:53pm

Highland Guy said: "James Edwards2 said: "Are you just unapologetically anti-semitic? "

Enough.Watch your words.

Are you telling an individual of a marginalized group (highest percentage of hate crimes in the US) to watch his words when his heritage is being disrespected and categorized as a choice?  Sutton was aggressive and wrong and her decision to not read my explanation of what it means to be Jewish can certainly be construed as anti-semitic.  It could also just be nasty.  Which is why I asked the question.  I'm sorry to have offended you.

"

 

[Highland Guy]

Posted: 4/24/23 at 11:01pm

James Edwards2 said: "Sutton was aggressive and wrong and her decision to not read my explanation of what it means to be Jewish can certainly be construed as anti-semitic."

Balderdash.  

[James Edwards2]

Posted: 4/24/23 at 11:10pm

Highland Guy said: "James Edwards2 said: "Sutton was aggressive and wrong and her decision to not read my explanation of what it means to be Jewish can certainly be construed as anti-semitic."

Balderdash."

It's okay.  You don't get it either.  I'm guessing you're not Jewish.  Which is probably why you shouldn't play a Jew either.  You have no desire to actually walk in our shoes and understand our experience.  If you did want to understand our experience and really explore that then I would have no issue with you playing one.  And yes, Sutton's words were clumsy and ignorant at best and anti-semitic at worst.  I've received a number of messages from people who frequent these boards who agree with me.  But that doesn't even really matter.  What matters is that the attempted diminishment of Jews as a group of people is anti-semitic.  And her words were just that - attempted diminishment.  That's all.  If you're still confused, go talk to a rabbi.  Or someone from the anti-defamation league.  They'll explain it to you.

[Highland Guy]

Posted: 4/24/23 at 11:15pm

I don't believe there is truth to anything the OP has posted.

 

Updated On: 4/24/23 at 11:15 PM

[James Edwards2]

Posted: 4/24/23 at 11:24pm

Highland Guy said: "I don't believe there is truth to anything the OP has posted.

"

I see.  I never should have ventured onto these boards.  There are some dark people lurking here.  There is complete truth to what I have posted.  The only way you deny that truth is if you are anti-semitic in some way.  I hate to label you as that, but it is what it is.  This sadly makes me feel very unsafe here.  What part of what I posted isn't true?  Maybe I'm just confused when you say you don't believe there is any truth to what I have posted.  Because right now you seem like someone who would say The Holocaust never happened.

[RippedMan]

Posted: 4/24/23 at 11:27pm

Round and round we go. Let actors act. I suspect plenty of Jewish people were involved in this production who didn’t blink twice about it. Let people do their thing. And if you don’t agree with it don’t go see it. 

[Highland Guy]

Posted: 4/24/23 at 11:28pm

James Edwards2 said: "Highland Guy said: "I don't believe there is truth to anything the OP has posted.

"

I see. I never should have ventured onto these boards. There are some dark people lurking here. There is complete truth to what I have posted. The only way you deny that truth is if you are anti-semitic in some way. I hate to label you as that, but it is what it is. This sadly makes me feel very unsafe here. What part of what I posted isn't true? Maybe I'm just confused when you say you don't believe there is any truth to what I have posted. Because right now you seem like someone who would say The Holocaust never happened."

[Dollypop]

Posted: 4/25/23 at 12:50am

James Edwards2 said: "Dollypop said: "Does an actor have to be Danish to play Hamlet?

Does an actress have to be British to play Anna Leon Owen's?

Must the entire cast of GIGI be French?

Does an actor playing Caliban have to actually be half beast?



A true actor BECOMES the character he's playing.

As someone of Italian/Polish heritage who has done four productions of FIDDLER down through the years, I have been honored to become Jewish for the hours I've been on stage in those productions.

It's called ACTING.

"

I agree with you. But you must draw the line somewhere, no? Where do you draw the line? Would you play a paraplegic? I see nothing wrong with it, but many people would.

"I don't think a line has to be drawn. Diana Sands was remarkable as SAINT JOAN.   Brandy was a delightful CINDERELLA.  Better Midler is Polysesian but that didn't present her from being terrific as Dolly Gallagher Levi.

An actor ACTS.

 

[PipingHotPiccolo]

Posted: 4/25/23 at 2:17am

While I think James Edwards here is doing a poor job conveying the underlying point, and Sutton Ross has made their bigoted views on Jewish people being a "CHOICE!" many times before and isnt worth engaging with here.... 

there IS a double standard in certain circles on this point that I think is worth highlighting.

To be clear I agree with Dollypop: an actor acts. I don't care if Sean Hayes is straight or Jewish, so long as he can sell the character. I would HATE for actors like Hayes to not get considered for roles like this because of their genetic background- I havent seen the show, but I cant wait. The suggestion that he isnt "Semitic enough" is to simply echo white supremacists. And do we want a universe where Jews cant play gentiles?  Do we fire Matt Doyle tomorrow, even though everyone seems pretty sold on his being in love with Audrey? God help us. Make it stop.

THAT SAID: there are many people who angrily object to certain ethnicities or minority groups being portrayed by anyone not from that very specific group. they demand mirror representation, and do NOT want actors to just act-- they insist the actor CANT act if they dont have a certain background, or experience. and while i hear the point--particularly re ensuring all ethnicities are represented--  and while i disagree respectfully, when those SAME PEOPLE don't apply the same argument to Jews... well, i see you. it takes a very ugly blind spot to insist that an overall argument applies to everyone but The Jews.

now there may be some roles that call out for Jewish actors given the subject matter- I thought it was great to lean in on Beanie's Judaism for that specific role, for example. but for a role like Oscar Levant in a play that has nothing to do with his Judaism? Sean Hayes should pass on the role for some unidentified Jewish actor? In the name of...what? 

[James Edwards2]

Posted: 4/25/23 at 2:45am

PipingHotPiccolo said: "While I think James Edwards here is doing a poor job conveying the underlying point, and Sutton Ross has made their bigoted views on Jewish people being a "CHOICE!" many times before and isnt worth engaging with here....

there IS a double standard in certain circles on this point that I think is worth highlighting.

To be clear I agree with Dollypop: an actor acts. I don't care if Sean Hayes is straight or Jewish, so long as he can sell the character. I would HATE for actors like Hayes to not get considered for roles like this because of their genetic background- I havent seen the show, but I cant wait. The suggestion that he isnt "Semitic enough" is to simply echo white supremacists. And do we want a universe where Jews cant play gentiles? Do we fire Matt Doyle tomorrow, even though everyone seems pretty sold on his being in love with Audrey? God help us. Make it stop.

THAT SAID: there are many people who angrily object to certain ethnicities or minority groups being portrayed by anyone not from that very specific group. they demand mirror representation, and do NOT want actors to just act-- they insist the actor CANT act if they dont have a certain background, or experience. and while i hear the point--particularly re ensuring all ethnicities are represented-- and while i disagree respectfully, when those SAME PEOPLE don't apply the same argument to Jews... well, i see you. it takes a very ugly blind spot to insist that an overall argument applies to everyone but The Jews.

now there may be some roles that call out for Jewish actors given the subject matter- I thought it was great to lean in on Beanie's Judaism for that specific role, for example. but for a role like Oscar Levant in a play that has nothing to do with his Judaism? Sean Hayes should pass on the role for some unidentified Jewish actor? In the name of...what?"

Perfectly said.  Thank you for this.  If someone can convincingly portray someone, then I'm here for it.  And I appreciate the time you took to so clearly articulate this.

[jkcohen626]

Posted: 4/25/23 at 2:47am

Sutton Ross said: "Imagine if they cast a straight white man in Kinky Boots instead of Billy Porter. You can't, because it never would have happened.

That's correct. Equating race (born that way), sexual orientation (born that way) with RELIGION (a choice) is ignorant and gross."

Ehh, Sutton, I generally agree with your take on this, but that's pretty naive and ignorant way of speaking about Judaism. Judaism predates the concept of religion and isn't really a religion in the same way Christianity or Islam are. It's more of an ethnicity, culture, tribe, etc. with a religion inherent to it. It's 100% something you are born into. While converting is certainly possible and open to all, it's a multi-year process with an emphasis on joining a peoplehood, not simply accepting a new god. 

[BWAY Baby2]

Posted: 4/25/23 at 7:40am

AS a Jew- this is my point of view on the subject. I think it is okay- occasionally- if a non-Jewish person portrays a Jewish person- Helen Mirren did that admirably in Woman In Gold- and I can name several other examples. I also think it is fine for Jews to play non-Jews in many instances. What I do NOT like- and I am very much offended by- is black people playing Jews- when clearly Jews cannot and never do portray black people.

     Two examples come to mind that did offend me- one was making one of the Lehman Brothers- who were Jewish immigrants - black. I saw the production- and he did a good job- but there was no good reason to do that- and it took away- for me- some of the power of the play. Another example-- Florenz Ziegfeld in new FG production- Ziegfeld was a celebrated Jewish impresario in the days when not many fields were open to Jews- and he was a very successful role model for Jews in the entertainment industry. He was respected and wielded huge power in those days. So why replace him with a black actor? Would it ever be okay to replace any black historical figure with a Jew? Definitely not- and that is what bothers me about it.

[jkcohen626]

Posted: 4/25/23 at 8:38am

oop, now we're at the racism part of this thread. Alright, time to shut it down.

Updated On: 4/25/23 at 08:38 AM

[PipingHotPiccolo]

Posted: 4/25/23 at 9:16am

BWAY Baby2 said: "AS a Jew- this is my point of view on the subject. I think it is okay- occasionally- if a non-Jewish person portrays a Jewish person- Helen Mirren did that admirably in Woman In Gold- and I can name several other examples. I also think it is fine for Jews to play non-Jews in many instances. What I do NOT like- and I am very much offended by- is black people playing Jews- when clearly Jews cannot and never do portray black people.

Two examples come to mind that did offend me- one was making one of the Lehman Brothers- who were Jewish immigrants - black. I saw the production- and he did a good job- but there was no good reason to do that- and it took away- for me- some of the power of the play. Another example-- Florenz Ziegfeld in new FG production- Ziegfeld was a celebrated Jewish impresario in the days when not many fields were open to Jews- and he was a very successful role model for Jews in the entertainment industry. He was respected and wielded huge power in those days. So why replace him with a black actor? Would it ever be okay to replace any black historical figure with a Jew? Definitely not- and that is what bothers me about it."

This is an outrageously offensive statement. Not only are there Black Jews that you completely ignore here (like anti Semites love to do), but you are literally suggesting that the White gentiles playing Jews worked for you in Lehman Trilogy, but the Black gentile didn't. Thats on YOU, and no one else, and is shameful.