Sean Hayes / Oscar Levant - The Jewish Part- Page 5

[BWAY Baby2]

Posted: 4/26/23 at 6:42am

The fundamental truth here is- the diversity police- who want a black, brown or POC influence in every segment of life- including every movie, show, etc.- which I think is valid, justified and a long time coming- have deemed Jews to not be part of the diversity push. Jews have suffered historically- and are still being persecuted- yet they are not a "protected" class- quite the opposite. And this, my friends, is anti-semitism at work. This is why you can have a black Florenz Ziegfeld- but any black character- even a Temptation- will never, ever be portrayed by a Jew.

[JasonC3]

Posted: 4/26/23 at 6:53am

People have raised some very thoughtful points in this thread.

I would be interested to hear (1) Hayes talk about Jewish representation in the specific context of his play and its development and (2) a mix of theater artists and producers discuss Jewish representation in relation to plays and musicals in general.

Diversity, equity, and inclusion is a part of my job responsibilities in my corporate role and we spend a lot of time talking about the principles we want to inform our decisions and that we hope our decisions advance in the company.  What we discover time and time again is that many individual situations are complex and we have to respond with nuance and an attention to the uniqueness of each case before us.

[BWAY Baby2]

Posted: 4/26/23 at 8:24am

In your opinion- are Jews locked out of the diversity discussion specifically when casting roles in the arts?  Do you think Jews should be part of the discussion and should be looked at as "protected"? Does the push for POC diversity currently include Jews- if not, why not? and do you think Jews should be included in this push for diversity?

[Zeppie2022]

Posted: 4/26/23 at 8:41am

"Oscar Levant passed away more than half a century ago.  To my limited knowledge, no one (Jewish or not) has brought his story to Broadway until now.  Sean Hayes didn't snatch the opportunity away from Jewish men to do so.  I would rather see a play about the brilliant Oscar Levant starring someone who is not himself Jewish, than to have no such play at all.  Good luck to all those involved with this production."

Well said, agree 100%.

[BWAY Baby2]

Posted: 4/26/23 at 10:43am

I agree as well- I love Sean Hayes and hope to see it. But, we are discussing the broader questions of Jewish participation in the diversity discussion. I hope Sean Hayes has a long run- and I cant wait to see it.

[James Edwards2]

Posted: 4/26/23 at 3:05pm

Zeppie2022 said: ""Oscar Levant passed away more than half a century ago. To my limited knowledge, no one (Jewish or not) has brought his story to Broadway until now. Sean Hayes didn't snatch the opportunity away from Jewish men to do so. I would rather see a play about the brilliant Oscar Levant starring someone who is not himself Jewish, than to have no such play at all. Good luck to all those involved with this production."

Well said, agree 100%."

This argument is precisely why there is a problem with representation.  Mr. Hayes can get the play produced because he is famous.  But Mr. Hayes most likely would not have had the television career he had if he were Jewish and had semitic features.  Television sitcoms of the 80s and 90s and 00s rarely featured actors with semitic features.  We do not have a lot of Jewish-facing stars.  So in order to get the play done we have to cast someone who isn't Jewish.  Which is also why there has been a lack of representation in big movies.  Studios understandably want to bank on bankable actors.  Most of those actors are white.

[Highland Guy]

Posted: 4/26/23 at 3:17pm

James Edwards2 said: "This argument is precisely why there is a problem with representation. Mr. Hayes can get the play produced because he is famous. But Mr. Hayes most likely would not have had the television career he had if he were Jewish and had semitic features. Television sitcoms of the 80s and 90s and 00s rarely featured actors with semitic features. We do not have a lot of Jewish-facing stars. So in order to get the play done we have to cast someone who isn't Jewish. Which is also why there has been a lack of representation in big movies. Studios understandably want to bank on bankable actors. Most of those actors are white."

 
A number of times here, you have used the words "semitic features".  Tell us PRECISELY what you mean by that.   What are "semitic features"?  What features did Oscar Levant have that you classify as "semitic"?  You claim to be Jewish, so tell us what features YOU have that are semitic.
 
 

Updated On: 4/26/23 at 03:17 PM

[The Distinctive Baritone]

Posted: 4/26/23 at 3:35pm

I am not Jewish, but have Jewish family members and ancestors. I think we all know what James means by “semitic features.” HOWEVER…over the past few decades, due to interfaith marriage and religious conversions, “semitic features“ are becoming less and less of a thing. I mean, I just did a show with a Mexican Jew. Perhaps during Oscar Durant’s time, “semitic features” were a half-way decent signifier of one’s Jewishness, but in 2023…not so much.

Also, the argument that Sean Hayes doesn’t “look like” a Jew is a poor one, since, well, if “passing as a Jew” is a requirement for actors playing Jewish characters…he passes.

I believe that Jewish representation in theater and film is important, but the OP needs to pick a more worthy battle to fight.

Updated On: 4/26/23 at 03:35 PM

[James Edwards2]

Posted: 4/26/23 at 3:51pm

Highland Guy said: "James Edwards2 said: "This argument is precisely why there is a problem with representation. Mr. Hayes can get the play produced because he is famous. But Mr. Hayes most likely would not have had the television career he had if he were Jewish and had semitic features. Television sitcoms of the 80s and 90s and 00s rarely featured actors with semitic features. We do not have a lot of Jewish-facing stars. So in order to get the play done we have to cast someone who isn't Jewish. Which is also why there has been a lack of representation in big movies. Studios understandably want to bank on bankable actors. Most of those actors are white."


A number of times here, you have used the words "semitic features". Tell us PRECISELY what you mean by that. What are "semitic features"? What features did Oscar Levant have that you classify as "semitic"? You claim to be Jewish, so tell us what features YOU have that are semitic.

"

I'll do my best to answer this but I'm not sure I can.  I can tell you that people frequently ask me if I'm Jewish.  Perhaps it's the color of my skin which is referred to as olive.  I'm not exactly sure how or why they might know or think to ask.  I will say that there are Jewish people who do not look traditionally Jewish (Paul Rudd)  and I wouldn't be able to tell by how they look.  But then there are those who I would be surprised to find out are not Jewish based on how they look (Woody Allen comes to mind).  I grew up in Birmingham, Alabama and I do not look like the people I grew up with.  And this was always made very clear to me as a victim of anti-semitism at school.  Oscar Levant does not look "white" to me.  He seems to have darker skin and certain facial features, and perhaps the placement of his facial features.  These things are not are not what most people would call "All-American."  I think we can maybe agree that Brad Pitt does not look at all Jewish.  Why is that?  I don't know.

[James Edwards2]

Posted: 4/26/23 at 4:03pm

The Distinctive Baritone said: "I am not Jewish, but have Jewish family members and ancestors. I think we all know what James means by “semitic features.” HOWEVER…over the past few decades, due to interfaith marriage and religious conversions,“semitic features“ are becoming less and less of a thing. I mean, I just did a show with a Mexican Jew. Perhaps during Oscar Durant’s time, “semitic features” were a half-way decent signifier of one’s Jewishness, but in 2023…not so much.

Also, the argument that Sean Hayes doesn’t “look like” a Jew is a poor one, since, well, if “passing as a Jew” is a requirement for actors playing Jewish characters…he passes.

I believe that Jewish representation in theater and film is important, but the OP needs to pick a more worthy battle to fight."

I would say that if you're not a Jewish person you probably do not really understand this (even if you do have Jewish family members).  If you present as Jewish you might find that you live your life with a certain amount of fear.  While you might love all people, there are many people who do not.  And there are many people who do not love Jewish people.  It's sad.  But it is true.

And yes it is true that as time goes by and people procreate with others who are not the same as they are, it will be harder to tell what a person's heritage are.  But it's not that Mr. Hayes couldn't be Jewish.  He could be.  But he's not.  And if this were a historical figure of any other ethnicity, Mr. Hayes would not be allowed to play it in the current climate.  Mandy Patinkin could no longer play Che in Evita.  Patti Lupone could not play Evita.  Again, I'm not for this.  I think actors should be able to play mostly anything.  But let's keep it consistent.

 

[JasonC3]

Posted: 4/26/23 at 4:17pm

Consistency doesn't necessarily produce fairness or equity when circumstances are different though.  That's why representation can be such a thorny issue.  One size does not fit all.

[Highland Guy]

Posted: 4/26/23 at 4:21pm

James Edwards2 said: "I'll do my best to answer this but I'm not sure I can. I can tell you that people frequently ask me if I'm Jewish. Perhaps it's the color of my skin which is referred to as olive. I'm not exactly sure how or why they might know or think to ask. I will say that there are Jewish people who do not look traditionally Jewish (Paul Rudd) and I wouldn't be able to tell by how they look. But then there are those who I would be surprised to find out are not Jewish based on how they look (Woody Allen comes to mind). I grew up in Birmingham, Alabama and I do not look like the people I grew up with. And this was always made very clear to me as a victim of anti-semitism at school. Oscar Levant does not look "white" to me. He seems to have darker skin and certain facial features, and perhaps the placement of his facial features. These things are not are not what most people would call "All-American." I think we can maybe agree that Brad Pitt does not look at all Jewish. Why is that? I don't know."

A non-answer.

You have called me and at least one other person on this thread "Anti-Semitic".  You have said that I might be a "Holocaust Denier".  Filthy accusations.

YOU are the one who used the term "Semitic features" so I must assume that you are an expert of some sort on the subject.  Tell me how to distinguish between Jewish and non-Jewish on the stage? 

 

[James Edwards2]

Posted: 4/26/23 at 4:37pm

Highland Guy said: "James Edwards2 said: "I'll do my best to answer this but I'm not sure I can. I can tell you that people frequently ask me if I'm Jewish. Perhaps it's the color of my skin which is referred to as olive. I'm not exactly sure how or why they might know or think to ask. I will say that there are Jewish people who do not look traditionally Jewish (Paul Rudd) and I wouldn't be able to tell by how they look. But then there are those who I would be surprised to find out are not Jewish based on how they look (Woody Allen comes to mind). I grew up in Birmingham, Alabama and I do not look like the people I grew up with. And this was always made very clear to me as a victim of anti-semitism at school. Oscar Levant does not look "white" to me. He seems to have darker skin and certain facial features, and perhaps the placement of his facial features. These things are not are not what most people would call "All-American." I think we can maybe agree that Brad Pitt does not look at all Jewish. Why is that? I don't know."

A non-answer.

You have called me and at least one other person on this thread "Anti-Semitic". You have said that I might be a "Holocaust Denier". Filthy accusations.

YOU are the one who used the term "Semitic features" so I must assume that you are an expert of some sort on the subject. Tell me how to distinguish between Jewish and non-Jewish on the stage?

"

I suggested people (like yourself) were anti-semitic because they were saying things that are anti-semitic.  It's just fact.  I'm sorry if that hurt feelings.  But you were not on the receiving end of the anti-semitic statements.  Try to imagine what that feels like.  And I think I explained myself pretty well with regards to semitic features.  I don't need to describe these for you.  All you need to know is that they exist.  You seemed confused as to their existence.  That's all I'm going to say to you.  You can absolutely feel free to do a little reading on the topic.

[TotallyEffed]

Posted: 4/26/23 at 4:40pm

Eva Peron was white.

[Highland Guy]

Posted: 4/26/23 at 4:41pm

James Edwards2 said: "Highland Guy said: "James Edwards2 said: "I'll do my best to answer this but I'm not sure I can. I can tell you that people frequently ask me if I'm Jewish. Perhaps it's the color of my skin which is referred to as olive. I'm not exactly sure how or why they might know or think to ask. I will say that there are Jewish people who do not look traditionally Jewish (Paul Rudd) and I wouldn't be able to tell by how they look. But then there are those who I would be surprised to find out are not Jewish based on how they look (Woody Allen comes to mind). I grew up in Birmingham, Alabama and I do not look like the people I grew up with. And this was always made very clear to me as a victim of anti-semitism at school. Oscar Levant does not look "white" to me. He seems to have darker skin and certain facial features, and perhaps the placement of his facial features. These things are not are not what most people would call "All-American." I think we can maybe agree that Brad Pitt does not look at all Jewish. Why is that? I don't know."

A non-answer.

You have called me and at least one other person on this thread "Anti-Semitic". You have said that I might be a "Holocaust Denier". Filthy accusations.

YOU are the one who used the term "Semitic features" so I must assume that you are an expert of some sort on the subject. Tell me how to distinguish between Jewish and non-Jewish on the stage?

"

I suggested people (like yourself) were anti-semitic because they were saying things that are anti-semitic. It's just fact. I'm sorry if that hurt feelings. But you were not on the receiving end of the anti-semitic statements. Try to imagine what that feels like. And I think I explained myself pretty well with regards to semitic features. I don't need to describe these for you. All you need to know is that they exist. You seemed confused as to their existence. That's all I'm going to say to you. You can absolutely feel free to do a little reading on the topic."

Another non-answer.

Tell me what things I was saying that are anti-semitic.  

[Kad]

Posted: 4/26/23 at 5:02pm

It’s troubling that this has taken a turn from “Jews should be playing Jewish figures/characters” to “Jews who look Jewish should be playing Jewish figures/characters.” 
 

In terms of diversity, Judaism cannot be handled the same way as many other race/ethnic groups. There are Jews who are blonde and blue eyed and no less Jewish than those with “Semitic features.” People who have converted to Judaism are just as Jewish as those born into it. People whose family trees contain Jews and other groups are just as Jewish. People can have “Semitic features” and not be Jewish at all. There is a large racial/ethnicity component but it is not all that matters. 

Updated On: 4/26/23 at 05:02 PM

[James Edwards2]

Posted: 4/26/23 at 5:09pm

Highland Guy said: "James Edwards2 said: "Highland Guy said: "James Edwards2 said: "I'll do my best to answer this but I'm not sure I can. I can tell you that people frequently ask me if I'm Jewish. Perhaps it's the color of my skin which is referred to as olive. I'm not exactly sure how or why they might know or think to ask. I will say that there are Jewish people who do not look traditionally Jewish (Paul Rudd) and I wouldn't be able to tell by how they look. But then there are those who I would be surprised to find out are not Jewish based on how they look (Woody Allen comes to mind). I grew up in Birmingham, Alabama and I do not look like the people I grew up with. And this was always made very clear to me as a victim of anti-semitism at school. Oscar Levant does not look "white" to me. He seems to have darker skin and certain facial features, and perhaps the placement of his facial features. These things are not are not what most people would call "All-American." I think we can maybe agree that Brad Pitt does not look at all Jewish. Why is that? I don't know."

A non-answer.

You have called me and at least one other person on this thread "Anti-Semitic". You have said that I might be a "Holocaust Denier". Filthy accusations.

YOU are the one who used the term "Semitic features" so I must assume that you are an expert of some sort on the subject. Tell me how to distinguish between Jewish and non-Jewish on the stage?

"

I suggested people (like yourself) were anti-semitic because they were saying things that are anti-semitic. It's just fact. I'm sorry if that hurt feelings. But you were not on the receiving end of the anti-semitic statements. Try to imagine what that feels like. And I think I explained myself pretty well with regards to semitic features. I don't need to describe these for you. All you need to know is that they exist. You seemed confused as to their existence. That's all I'm going to say to you. You can absolutely feel free to do a little reading on the topic."

Another non-answer.

Tell me what things I was saying that are anti-semitic."

THIS

Highland Guy said: "I don't believe there is truth to anything the OP has posted."

Maybe you weren't referring to any of the Jewish topics I mentioned.  But you said there's no truth to anything I had said.
 

[James Edwards2]

Posted: 4/26/23 at 5:12pm

Kad said: "It’s troubling that this has taken a turn from “Jews should be playing Jewish figures/characters” to “Jewswho look Jewish should be playing Jewish figures/characters.”


In terms of diversity, Judaism cannot be handled the same way as many other race/ethnic groups. There are Jews who are blonde and blue eyed and no less Jewish than those with “Semitic features.” People who have converted to Judaism are just as Jewish as those born into it. People whose family trees contain Jews and other groups are just as Jewish. People can have “Semitic features” and not be Jewish at all. There is a large racial/ethnicity component but it is not all that matters."

Of course.  I agree.  But this is also not so different from light-skinned Black people not being able to play Black roles because they're not dark-skinned enough.  There are many people who are bi-racial who cannot play Black roles because they look White.  

[Highland Guy]

Posted: 4/26/23 at 5:35pm

James Edwards2 said: "Highland Guy said: "Tell me what things I was saying that are anti-semitic."

THIS

Highland Guy said: "I don't believe there is truth to anything the OP has posted."

Maybe you weren't referring to any of the Jewish topics I mentioned. But you said there's no truth to anything I had said."

 

And I still don't think there is truth to anything you have posted.  That DOES NOT make me Anti-Semitic.  And it DOES NOT make me, as you have suggested, a Holocaust Denier.  I continue to question your motives for creating this thread.

 

[James Edwards2]

Posted: 4/26/23 at 5:55pm

Highland Guy said: "James Edwards2 said: "Highland Guy said: "Tell mewhat things I was saying that are anti-semitic."

THIS

Highland Guy said: "I don't believe there is truth to anything the OP has posted."

Maybe you weren't referring to any of the Jewish topics I mentioned. But you said there's no truth to anything I had said."



And I still don't think there is truth to anything you have posted. That DOES NOT make me Anti-Semitic. And it DOES NOT make me, as you have suggested, a Holocaust Denier. I continue to question your motives for creating this thread.

"

It's good to know you're not a Holocaust denier.  You denied the existence of Jewish people as ethnic group by saying there's no truth to what I've posted, so that is anti-semitic.  But this is clearly a waste of my time.  If you are going to say that there's no truth to anything I posted, there's no getting through to you.  I'm not sure what you think my motives could possibly be other than to have a thoughtful discussion of how Jews are considered in art.  I'm a big fan of Sean Hayes.  I have seen every episode of Will and Grace.  I loved him in Promises, Promises.  If you don't want to have this discussion feel free to depart the thread.  It seems to me we have already exhausted the topic anyway.  There are clearly some people who understand and some people (not too many actually) who do not.  

[Highland Guy]

Posted: 4/26/23 at 6:38pm

James Edwards2 said: "It's good to know you're not a Holocaust denier."

 

Without reason or proof, you called me a Holocaust Denier.  That forced me to defend myself and my reputation.  But instead of an apology, you post the above dismissive comment.  That, by any definition, is TROLLING.

 

[George in DC]

Posted: 4/26/23 at 7:13pm

Just ignore the troll and block him, I know I'm going to.

[James Edwards2]

Posted: 4/26/23 at 7:14pm

Highland Guy said: "James Edwards2 said: "It's good to know you're not a Holocaust denier."



Without reason or proof, you called me a Holocaust Denier. That forced me to defend myself and my reputation. But instead of an apology, you post the above dismissive comment. That, by any definition, is TROLLING.

"

That's not what happened but okay.  I apologize for suggesting you might be someone who would also deny the Holocaust.  That was my bad.  

But it wasn't trolling as you suggest.  It wasn't meant to upset you, which is what trolling is.  It was meant to point out that the kinds of things you are denying in what I was saying are similar things to people who deny the Holocaust.  If you don't want people to make those connections, maybe try not to discount someone's viewpoint on a topic you aren't at all versed in.  I say this with care, not in anger.

Updated On: 4/26/23 at 07:14 PM

[Highland Guy]

Posted: 4/26/23 at 7:30pm

James Edwards2 said: "That's not what happened but okay. I apologize for suggesting you might be someone who would also deny the Holocaust. That was my bad.

But it wasn't trolling as you suggest. It wasn't meant to upset you, which is what trolling is. It was meant to point out that the kinds of things you are denying in what I was saying are similar things to people who deny the Holocaust. If you don't want people to make those connections, maybe try not to discount someone's viewpoint on a topic you aren't at all versed in. I say this with care, not in anger."

STOP

 

[PipingHotPiccolo]

Posted: 4/26/23 at 7:41pm

I agree with this guy's underlying point re the double standard many of you are guilty of, frankly, but this over the top presentation does no one any favors here and accomplishes nothing. 

I was, however, thinking today about the comment above--fairly made--that there ISNT a representation issue re Jewish actors. I think thats probably true from a #s perspective, but why don't we apply that logic to LGBTQ performers? Isn't there an argument that gay characters should be played by gay actors? But surely there isnt a dearth of gay actors? 

I reject the notion both for Jews and LGBTQ--the Joan Rivers project with Kathryn Hahn is a casualty of this nonsense-- but its an interesting example where REPRESENTATION seems to matter for one more than the other.