She's Back! CARRIE - First preview !!! - Page 16

[cirque]

Posted: 2/3/12 at 2:27pm

Bernie Telsey told people to come up and give feedback - I told him Margaret needs to be more off the wall - he looked unimpressed LOL But seriously that's what all us show queens are going for!

[songanddanceman2]

Posted: 2/3/12 at 2:38pm

Because Margaret is not just a monster, and the book makes it clear she loves her daughter.

[Michael Bennett]

Posted: 2/3/12 at 2:41pm

Good for you cirque. And its not even that the show queens want a camp fest. Its because that is who the character is. It'd be like having Hannibal Lector reconceived to be played like Atticus Finch.

And I don't think Margaret loves Carrie. Not really. Everything she does is completely rooted in her own self serving beliefs. You could maybe make some argument about the characterization in the book, but the musical's script is pretty much a line for line adaptation of the film screenplay.





Updated On: 2/3/12 at 02:41 PM

[Bettyboy72]

Posted: 2/3/12 at 2:56pm

Margaret does love Carrie. I love how all the men on these boards (many gay) will so quickly say that she does not. Mother/ child love is complex and just because it doesn't look one way does not mean it doesn't exist.

Many mothers are enmeshed with their children-as Margaret is with Carrie. Some mothers have boundary issues and do not know where they begin and end and where their child begins and ends. Margaret is of the belief that the ultimate love would be to kill her daughter in order to save her from sin. It's not healthy, but it's definitely love.

[Michael Bennett]

Posted: 2/3/12 at 3:03pm

I will give you thats a complex relationship. At the very least though Margaret is an incredibly abusive mother both physically and emotionally. She may love her daughter but she also says she should have killed Carrie, "the minute he put it in me." That is guilt over her OWN perceived sin; and she kills her daughter for as much that reason as because she thinks its the right thing to do to 'save' her child. This revival seems to focus on upping the ante of Carrie's schoolyard bullying but forgives Margaret too much, in my opinion for her role in Carrie's abuse. I actually think it ultimately makes Carrie less sympathetic when her mother is less crazy.

[best12bars]

Posted: 2/3/12 at 3:04pm

I guess it all depends on what people mean by "love." Margaret loves "God and Jesus" above all else, including herself. She feels enormous guilt for her own past sins, which include conceiving Carrie. She is frightened of Carrie's powers and believes she is riddled with sin. She does not have her daughter's best interest at heart. She has God's best interest at heart. And if God wants Carrie to die, then she will gladly kill her in His name.

Maybe some of you can see that as a form of "mother/daughter love," but I can't.

Updated On: 2/3/12 at 03:04 PM

[Michael Bennett]

Posted: 2/3/12 at 3:17pm

So well stated Best12. You know that is truly what makes a lot of the relgious zealots scary and very dangerous. There are some recordings of Jim Jones, the infamous priest who led 900 followers to commit a mass suicide in Jonestown that were made in the hours leading up to the suicide and how he passionately talks about sacrificing the lives of the children for God (and is greeted in turn by passionate applause of approval) is absolutely chilling.

In this revival Margaret actually seems dour and conflicted about her belief in God and judgement day; the scary truth is - most of the religious zealots have no disbelief in their convictions at all.





Updated On: 2/3/12 at 03:17 PM

[best12bars]

Posted: 2/3/12 at 3:25pm

She should not seem dour about her love of God. She can be dour about everything else except Him. But she should be radiant with the "glory of His name" lighting up in her eyes.

Everything she does is for Him and in His name. Anything that goes against Him must be stopped or punished or destroyed, no matter what it takes.

God is love. God is truth. God, above all else. He's all that matters.

Updated On: 2/3/12 at 03:25 PM

[Phyllis Rogers Stone]

Posted: 2/3/12 at 3:51pm

Because Margaret is not just a monster, and the book makes it clear she loves her daughter.

I'm not so sure about that. She's much more monstrous in the book than she is on stage, at least in my opinion.

[Mister Matt]

Posted: 2/3/12 at 3:55pm

There is a lot of backstory to Margaret and her relationship with Carrie that was left out of both the film and the musical including Margaret's self-loathing, the circumstances of Carrie's inception, and the discovery of Carrie's abilities during early childhood. All this factors in to Margaret's treatment of Carrie which comes from a place of hatred and fear (the only emotions Carrie experienced from anyone in her life until the prom with Tommy), not love. The "love" between Carrie and her mother always came from a place of duty, not emotion.

And it will always seem like two different shows. Carrie's home life and school life never collide. Not once. And the atmospheres are entirely different. The ONLY way it could be more unified is if there was some repeated theme or lyrics that were appropriate for both of Carrie's worlds and I'm afraid it would be too obvious and gimmicky.

[best12bars]

Posted: 2/3/12 at 4:02pm

Margaret's whole motivation in her life is God. He is her reason for living, her only happiness, and her only solace in life. It's all about what He wants. She's willing to sacrifice everything and everyone, including Carrie, for that divine love.

Killing Carrie is the "ultimate act of love," I agree, but not for her daughter, it's for God. Margaret accepts the responsibility of Carrie in her life as a punishment for her own past sins. Carrie is her burden to bare. If there is any conflict inside her, it's that she didn't "give Carrie back to God" the moment she was born (as she says). She has struggled with the decision to allow Carrie to live since Day One of Carrie's life. She allowed it to be as her own "crown of thorns" to wear for her own carnal sin. Margaret's punishment is to raise Carrie, to have to wrestle with this sin, to tame it, to punish it, to face it every day and beat it.

If I were playing Margaret (which would be frightening, but not for right reasons), I would see Carrie's prom night tragedy as Margaret's chance for a release from her burden. She says to Carrie, as she strokes her hair, 'Now the Devil has come home!" Meaning to me that she now has a direct "license to kill" by God Himself. Carrie is no longer a burden, but is evil. She is the Devil. And she must be stopped in God's Name.

She's not sacrificing Carrie anymore. She's not committing murder, either. She is stopping the Devil in his tracks. And she should be joyous and happy about reaching this moment in her life, where she can finally do "good" and right herself with God.

Updated On: 2/3/12 at 04:02 PM

[Michael Bennett]

Posted: 2/3/12 at 4:24pm

In this incarnation, 'the devils come home' line is gone (another sign of misconceiving the story in my opinion. In this version when Carrie walks in tears, Mrs. White looks up from her prayer and bursts into tears herself saying, "Oh my angel, oh my angel" She than holds her, sings the lullabye through her tears and stabs her.

Yes, they've gone the lifetime movie approach. Forget scary or the source material when you can 'humanize' your villains..





Updated On: 2/3/12 at 04:24 PM

[PalJoey]

Posted: 2/3/12 at 5:03pm

Carrie's father died in a construction accident after impregnating Margaret, but Margaret refused to believe that she was pregnant because she believed all intercourse to be a sin. From her fifth month until she gave birth, she believed that she had "a cancer of the womanly parts" and that she was going to die and "join her husband in heaven."

From the book:

===

Carrie White's mother, Margaret White, gave birth to her daughter on September 21, 1963, under circumstances which can only be described as bizarre....

Due to the Whites' near-fanatical fundamentalist religious beliefs, Mrs. White had no friends to see her through her period of bereavement. And when her labor began seven months later, she was alone.

At approximately 1:30 PM on September 21, the neighbors on Carlin Street began to hear screams from the White bungalow....

When the police did arrive at 6:22 PM, the screams had become irregular. Mrs. White was found in her bed upstairs, and the investigating officer, Thomas G. Mearton, at first thought she had been the victim of an assault. The bed was drenched with blood, and a butcher knife lay on the floor. It was only then that he saw the baby, still partially wrapped in the placental membrane, at Mrs. White's breast. She had apparently cut the umbilical cord herself with the knife.

--Stephen King, Carrie

(Actually from the book-within-the-book that King wrote to give the narrative an objective POV from an invented academic.)

[best12bars]

Posted: 2/3/12 at 5:15pm

Changing "Now the Devil has come home!" to "Oh, my angel, my angel," is a complete 180 (quite literally) from the original Stephen King material.

It isn't just looking at Margaret a different way, it's a disregard for what he wrote and a rewrite of the character. Very "Lifetime movie," I agree, MB.

They should at least see what they've done and acknowledge it. Margaret isn't the same person anymore. I suppose it still falls under "adapting" the material, as much as saying "We decided to make Dorothy a 28-year-old schoolteacher from Harlem" in film version of The Wiz.

[Michael Bennett]

Posted: 2/3/12 at 5:24pm

You know its interesting because the song that was originally written for Margaret in Act 2 was called "Once I loved a boy" and it essentially sololiquized the monologue that Piper does at the end of the film. I know people love "When There's No One" but arguably the original song better musicalizes the character (at least as Stephen King wrote her).

Somewhere along the path early on, the writers decided to humanize the character -- aside from "When there's no one" - "Evening Prayers" plays up a more human conflict for the Margaret character.

That's fine, but I think this production just goes too far in humazinzing everything else about the character. We get that human conflict (if they feel its necessary) in those songs. She can be a little more unbalanced in everything else.

I actually wish they'd let Marin do that monologue at the end. They probably feel it would slow the show down at that point in the evening, but Brian dePalma also felt that way and almost didn't let Piper Laurie even film it. Obviously he realized when he saw her performance its a crucial moment to the story.

[Phyllis Rogers Stone]

Posted: 2/3/12 at 5:26pm

Yeah, she's a totally different animal in the musical, even in the 1988 version. She tells her Carrie she's special and that she loves her; she implores her to stay home from the prom so she can sing to her. In the book, Margaret's profound dysfunction with sexuality seems to stem from her religious zealotry; in the musical, it seems like the fact that Carrie's father f*cked her and ran is what caused her sexual pathology.

[Idiot]

Posted: 2/3/12 at 5:31pm

Margaret loves her daughter?

Yes. Though she shames and rejects everything about her -- even her womanhood -- she 'loves' her. That's a pile of crap. That parents automatically love their children is adorable and sweet, but a myth.

I'm a bit resigned to the idea that this will not be a CARRIE that shares the sense of fun that's so evident in the source material. There's a whole lotta pretension afoot. That's quite a shame.

[best12bars]

Posted: 2/3/12 at 5:38pm

Everything you're all telling me says the issue (of defanging Margaret) is definitely in the writing. I know you (and me, too) have been talking about motivations and ways to approach the material differently, but the way I see it, based on everything you're saying, it's the material itself that needs to change. I don't think an actress and director can find it in the lines and songs if they aren't there.

Here's Margaret's monologue from the movie and the lines afterward, just before she stabs Carrie:

Margaret White: I should've killed myself when he put it in me. After the first time, before we were married, Ralph promised never again. He promised and I believed him. But sin never dies. Sin never dies. At first it was all right. We lived sinlessly. We slept in the same bed, but we never did it. And then, that night, I saw him looking down at me that way. We got down on our knees to pray for strength. I smelled the whiskey on his breath. Then he took me. He took me, with the filthy roadhouse whiskey on his breath, and I liked it. I liked it! With all that dirty touching of his hands all over me. I should've given you to God when you were born, but I was weak and backsliding, and now the devil has come home. We'll pray.

Carrie White: Yes.

Margaret White: We'll pray. We'll pray. We'll pray for the last time. We'll pray.

[bobbybaby85]

Posted: 2/3/12 at 5:40pm

I personally wish they'd cut Margaret's lullaby in the end and replace it with Once I Loved A Boy. It truly puts that brilliant monologue from the end of the film into musical form and conveys a scary message about how much she liked it when Carrie's father basically raped her... She then goes on to sing about how if she'd been stronger she would have killed Carrie when she was younger, but her love for her prevented her from doing it. It ends on the note, though, that she's now literally seen the signs and that killing her daughter is the ONLY way to cleanse her soul in God's eyes.

To me, this number accomplishes what they are trying to do to Margaret as well as making her actions truly horrific. She still states that she loves her daughter... which is why she didn't kill her previously... but Margaret is still going to stab her. If you want to "humanize" the character, what better way than peering into her head for a second to understand her justification for what she's about to do.

Singing the Carrie (Reprise) is really counterproductive. I don't think Once I Loved A Boy had a place in the When There's No One spot... but in the finale, it could add a bit of the "monster" people are looking for.

[Michael Bennett]

Posted: 2/3/12 at 5:52pm

The original reviews were so focused on the outrageous original staging, it will be interesting to see if any critics now stop to evaluate whether any of the songs actually well musicalized the material. The Carrie- Margaret songs are beautiful, but in talking about how the songs in Carrie feel like they are from two different shows, I wonder If any will suggest that it could actually be the mother daughter score that feels out of balance to the story of Carrie...

Updated On: 2/3/12 at 05:52 PM

[best12bars]

Posted: 2/3/12 at 5:54pm

When Margaret says, "I should have given you to God when you were born," that means to me Margaret feels she missed the opportunity to kill Carrie the first time.

"But sin never dies, sin never dies," says to me that the reason she has let Carrie live isn't out of love for her daughter, but rather an acknowledgment that Carrie is Margaret's "living sin." She is Margaret's punishment and penance for doing the dirty act.

But at the end when she says ... "And now the devil has come home," that means she is no longer thinking of Carrie merely as the "embodiment of her sin" but rather the Devil himself. She believes Carrie is evil. And evil must be stopped. That's why she must kill Carrie now in the name of God.

[best12bars]

Posted: 2/3/12 at 5:59pm

MB---it does sound like the '80s incarnation was slightly closer to the source material (even if it was different, but somehow exciting), and now they've moved even further away from the source in this revisal. They've made it less effective by going more in that direction.

Would you agree?

And yes, I wonder if any critics will mention that. The one thing I would think virtually impossible would be relying on Marin along with the director, trying to "make it more exciting, crazy, and dramatic" on their own. This needs a rewrite first.

Updated On: 2/3/12 at 05:59 PM

[Borstalboy]

Posted: 2/3/12 at 6:50pm

What is all this about "Margaret loves Carrie more in this version"? She didn't love her in the movie or book??

As any acting teacher will tell you, when you're dealing with love you gotta take it in all the bracing, ugly forms it can take without judgement.

[Bettyboy72]

Posted: 2/3/12 at 7:12pm

Thank you Borstal! Exactly my point.

Oh and Idiot-I hate to burst your bubble but many parents who love their children also shame them, reject them and sometimes even hurt them. They view that as some skewed version of getting the child to align with them.

As a practicing psychotherapist, I know this first hand. Parental love doesn't always come in a pretty box with a bow.

Margaret loved Carrie in the book, the film and the stage versions even if she contemplated killing her. in her warped mind, it is for the daughter's greater glory. If Margaret were to kill Carrie, the sin would be on her,not her daughter. It is the ultimate sacrifice.

Updated On: 2/3/12 at 07:12 PM

[Owen22]

Posted: 2/3/12 at 7:13pm

"Margaret does love Carrie. I love how all the men on these boards (many gay) will so quickly say that she does not. Mother/ child love is complex and just because it doesn't look one way does not mean it doesn't exist."

Really? Really? You're actually going there? As if a gay man doesn't know from a mother's love??? There are people out there that will still tell you that's WHY we're gay.

And as many of of the (presumably) gay men on these boards have so eloquently explained to you, Margaret does not love Carrie in King's book. Nor the film. She certainly isn't saving Carrie from herself.

I have argued before in other Carrie-centric threads, what was wrong with the original musical was the "humanizing" of Margaret White to the neglect of the teenage characters. How disappointing to find out this new version not only doesn't extenuate and correct this, it sounds like it over-embellishes what was already there!




Updated On: 2/3/12 at 07:13 PM