Sierra Boggess to play Maria in West Side Story in London- Page 11

[RippedMan]

Posted: 4/23/18 at 11:50pm

What I find interesting is the Italian person "passing" as Latinax or the Asian-American "passing." Is that okay? I'm honestly curious. It's like Fiddler on the Roof. If the guy playing Tevye is dark-haired, it's fine. He may not actually be Jewish, but he looks it. Whereas if it was a blonde guy, we'd all be like WTF. I don't know what's right and what's wrong in that instance. I mean, certainly, a woman who is Italian is nowhere near someone who is Puerto Rican, and, in that case, is she more capable of playing the part than Boggess? Is it purely that Boggess is clearly a red-head, and this Italian girl is dark haired, so we didn't think to care/ask? 

[ScottyDoesn'tKnow2]

Posted: 4/24/18 at 12:02am

As an Asian-American, I want to say race is beyond color of your skin. There have been blonde/blue-eyed people playing Latinx characters before in recent shows about Latinx people written by Latinx people that passed muster because they themselves are Latinx. Some of those actors feel really strongly about the concept of passing as well. 

Case in point:

http://teenwolf.wikia.com/wiki/Froy_Gutierrez

“I am very passionate and vocal about issues facing people of color, so I find it odd that I am often referred to as a white boy. I totally acknowledge the privilege that comes from being "white passing," but it bothers me when my Caxcan-native and Mexican roots are erased. When people refer to mixed people as white, they are feeding into the same systems of oppression that erase the stories of POC. There's a lot of pressure to either tokenize or whitewash myself, and I hope I do not do either of those.”

It reminds me of the whole Evita conversation about Eva Peron being a white person. I think there's a lot of mixed communication because for many POC, it's beyond casting somebody who looks the part and beyond skin deep. Portraying somebody of a certain heritage and ethnicity and culture carries a big responsibility especially when many of those stories aren't told often compared to "default" stories. These opportunities also don't come around often so people feel like when there's that rare opportunity, they want to give it to somebody who most closely embodies the character. Race and ethnicity is beyond skin color but how one is raised, their life experiences, and how they grew up and the people they grew up with. The fact that some have a hard time grasping that sort of shows they simply haven't grown up in the same world that one who is a lot more attuned to race and color has. It's like what Julie Taymor said about The Lion King. She said for white people it's not about race at all, but for a young black child seeing a black man be king on stage, it's all about race. She's right and hit the head on why this type of discussion always ends up in a huge fight because one side simply doesn't understand why the other always has to see things through that lens, but they do because that's how their entire life has been shaped. It's hard to understand unless you lived it.

However, I do get why some are pushing back a bit because the idea of acting is being able to play somebody who you are not. I think the history of whitewashing, white actors playing POC and looking like they are doing a caricature while denying POC actors at the time the ability to play roles due to marketing, AND the somewhat racist push back (not saying everyone here who pushed back is racist but these conversations tend to invite a lot of racist rhetoric and myths about the best actor for the role always being the white actor) makes this issue more complicated and contentious than anybody intends for it to be but it just happens and a lot of heated insults and hurt feelings (not just from those people accuse of being fragile because let's face it, everyone on both sides is being fragile here) happen.

Updated On: 4/24/18 at 12:02 AM

[Dancingthrulife2]

Posted: 4/24/18 at 1:48am

BWAY Baby2 said: "For all of you color counters who pretend to want justice- but really want an unfair advantage since oppression is a fact of history- so now to level the playing field- let's get whitey. Well, what it got you is Trump- more visibility for white supremacists- and a backlash that actually stymies diversity. But in spite of your complaining and victimization, plenty of progress is being made for true equality and justice- and I say in spite of the victims who demand that every project have a POC- that every award have nominees of POC- regardless of if they deserve the recognition or not- that is beside the point- the color of the skin is all that matters. I say PHOOEY."

I'm sure the best way to treat a cancer is to pretend that it never exists. "oppression is a fact of history" Just wow.

[BWAY Baby2]

Posted: 4/24/18 at 3:51am

And sometimes the treatment of cancer with chemo actually kills the patient. Racism- or reverse racism- is wrong is my point- and the fact that slavery once existed does not justify current racist attitudes or push back- to level the playing field. Maybe you want it to be that way to give you the advantage this time- but that type of thinking is passe- and justice demands equality at all levels starting NOW.

Updated On: 4/24/18 at 03:51 AM

[binau]

Posted: 4/24/18 at 4:14am

We *cannot* start to turn this conversation and further divide by cultural identity once we accept we should divide by ethnicity. That leads to a whole bunch of impossible situations to deal with, for example:

* it would mean only Japanese heritage people should be in Pacific Overtures, or Thai people in the King and I. Practically impossible and of course no one would think this. Ethnicity of south East Asian should be sufficient.
* it would mean that only Canadians can play Canadians, Americans American, British British and Australians Australian. Equally absurd, practically impossible. Ethnicity of Caucasian should be enough.
* you are essentially saying Patti LuPone had no business playing an ethnically white woman. Ridiculous - what a talented performance that would have never happened. This is exactly why where possible it’s better to consider the best person for the best role.
* you could take this further and say only gay people can play gay people.

I’m so angry sometimes at my ‘left-wing’ colleagues (a movement I want to be associated with) because they take good ideas and just take them to absurd levels. This slippery slope of infinite divisions is why ‘identity politics’ just can’t always work. You need to be more balanced and realise for both practical and ethical reasons there is a limit to it. Wanting African ethnicity Celie is ok. Not wanting a white woman to play an ethnicallly white woman even if she is the most talented is not ok.

Updated On: 4/24/18 at 04:14 AM

[Dave28282]

Posted: 4/24/18 at 7:01am

qolbinau said: "We *cannot* start to turn this conversation and further divide by cultural identity once we accept we should divide by ethnicity. That leads to a whole bunch of impossible situations to deal with, for example:

* it would mean only Japanese heritage people should be in Pacific Overtures, or Thai people in the King and I. Practically impossible and of course no one would think this. Ethnicity of south East Asian should be sufficient.
* it would mean that only Canadians can play Canadians, Americans American, British British and Australians Australian. Equally absurd, practically impossible. Ethnicity of Caucasian should be enough.
* you are essentially saying Patti LuPone had no business playing an ethnically white woman. Ridiculous - what a talented performance that would have never happened. This is exactly why where possible it’s better to consider the best person for the best role.
* you could take this further and say only gay people can play gay people.

I’m so angry sometimes at my ‘left-wing’ colleagues (a movement I want to be associated with) because they take good ideas and just take them to absurd levels. This slippery slope of infinite divisions is why ‘identity politics’ just can’t always work. You need to be more balanced and realise for both practical and ethical reasons there is a limit to it. Wanting African ethnicity Celie is ok. Not wanting a white woman to play an ethnicallly white woman even if she is the most talented is not ok."

Very well said qolbinau.

The problem is, the left racists don't care about all the points you mention. They don't care if siblings are played by 2 different races, as long as they are not white. The don't care if many roles are cast accurately, as long as it's not white. This is not about accuracy to them, this is about deliberately excluding a race and constantly changing agenda's in favor of the amount of work opportunity for the race of choice. This is, and always has been the core of racism. Doing this "in return" to "get even" is just as disgusting as what happened in the past. This is not the key to equality. It's the opposite. There will NEVER be equality as long as people don't understand this.

This is 1 way race terrorism, and it's exactly what happened back in the day. 

In cases like this, these people attack an actress like Sierra to back out because of "accuracy". If we apply this rule to Hamilton, where the fact are that a white male with blue eyes and blond hair did so much against slavery, which was very special in that time, this would mean that only white men should play this role. But no, suddenly the hypocrisy shows, and agenda's are changed. Suddenly historical accuracy is out of the window and the same people suddenly don't care anymore, because in this case it means work opportunity for the race of choice, casting wise. I know this was a deliberate choice of the show, but that does not make it less toxic. You can't change agenda's on a daily basis, as you like. That is not the solution to equality.

Ana Villafañe actually has a great point. She understands that exclusion and widening the gap is not the solution. It's a 2 way street. 

I think secretly Sierra is rolling her eyes. It's a Prom concert without scenes, with selections from the show. She has nothing to apologize for. Because radical left wing racism is so accepted nowadays (just like right wing racism was accepted back in the day), both equally toxic and the people didn't realize it, basically brainwashed, not giving in to this attack could potentially harm her career, and that's why she backed out. Comparable things happened with the Great comet, left wing attacks, causing a bigger race gap, leaving hunderds of people without a job. Well done.

Would they have the same reaction at a black Christine in the Phantom of the Opera, daughter of a Swedish violinist in the 19th century? Of course not. Sudden change in agenda and silencing and attacking anybody who comments on it or uses the word "historical accuracy". It's the epitome of hypocrisy.

Again, there will NEVER be equality as long as people use this 1 way street mindset. To get "even". Equality is a 2 way street per definition.

Updated On: 4/24/18 at 07:01 AM

[Dave28282]

Posted: 4/24/18 at 7:07am

BWAY Baby2 said: "For all of you color counters who pretend to want justice- but really want an unfair advantage since oppression is a fact of history- so now to level the playing field- let's get whitey. Well, what it got you is Trump- more visibility for white supremacists- and a backlash that actually stymies diversity. But in spite of your complaining and victimization, plenty of progress is being made for true equality and justice- and I say in spite of the victims who demand that every project have a POC- that every award have nominees of POC- regardless of if they deserve the recognition or not- that is beside the point- the color of the skin is all that matters. I say PHOOEY."

This. And they are making the gap bigger and bigger and bigger.

[Dave28282]

Posted: 4/24/18 at 7:19am

RippedMan said: "What I find interesting is the Italian person "passing" as Latinax or the Asian-American "passing." Is that okay? I'm honestly curious. It's like Fiddler on the Roof. If the guy playing Tevye is dark-haired, it's fine. He may not actually be Jewish, but he looks it. Whereas if it was a blonde guy, we'd all be like WTF. I don't know what's right and what's wrong in that instance. I mean, certainly, a woman who is Italian is nowhere near someone who is Puerto Rican, and, in that case, is she more capable of playing the part than Boggess? Is it purely that Boggess is clearly a red-head, and this Italian girl is dark haired, so we didn't think to care/ask?"

True, racial accuracy is only a fallacy. Used when it suits their point, dismissed when it suits another situation. In most situations it's just "As long as it's not white". So a clear exclusion of a certain race.

It's actually very racist per definition, because I know blonde, pale, blue eyed latino's and whites with a darker tone and black hair.

Another fact: 75 percent of Puerto Ricans self-identify as "white" in their latest 2010 census. Is it for us to tell them they are wrong? So if they find a Puerto Rican girl who can sing the score, make sure you ask her this question before giving her the role. Many Latina's have blue eyes and are more pale than Sierra. 

But it's clear that racial accuracy is not a legit reason, as it went overboard far too many times already. So it could very well be that we are just talking work opportunity for latina girls who identify as white, looking more white than Sierra here. Or maybe a nice toned Italian girl with black hair could do the job? Or is that too white because Meditteranean is a sub race of caucasian?

 

Updated On: 4/24/18 at 07:19 AM

[BWAY Baby2]

Posted: 4/24/18 at 9:04am

Dave- Very well thought out- and I totally agree with you-you speak of true equality in an era where identity politics, racial division and victimization- both real and imagined, are rife. The PC Police do not offer the answers, IMO, and your opinion, too, it seems, to true equality and justice for all races and minorities. A much more thoughtful and balanced approach is necessary- but I really do believe we are progressing- and rather quickly. I hope we are not perceived as racists and supremacists because we do not buy into the current trend of mandatory diversity- which is really a quota system that every project must ascribe to- better known as affirmative action- whose time has come and gone. I support an equal playing field for all- starting now.

[fashionguru_23]

Posted: 4/24/18 at 10:11am

God, I feel like we are having the Evita (Was she white? Was she Latin?) issue all over again!

[Gizmo6]

Posted: 4/24/18 at 10:24am

I agree with Quinboa I’m left but the left is becoming as extreme as the right. From reading this thread people will have to hand over passports and do a blood test to prove racial heritage for a role.

As Bianca Del Rio says Ain’t gonna happen!

[Dancingthrulife2]

Posted: 4/24/18 at 10:29am

Gizmo6 said: "I agree with Quinboa I’m left but the left is becoming as extreme as the right. From reading this thread people will have to hand over passports and do a blood test to prove racial heritage for a role.

As Bianca Del Rio says Ain’t gonna happen!"

There's no left since the democratic party is owned by corporate and rich donors. The only distinction worth making regarding what used to be the "left" is liberals and neoliberals.

[Gizmo6]

Posted: 4/24/18 at 11:07am

I’m European left means liberal to us. Sorry.

[everythingtaboo]

Posted: 4/24/18 at 1:29pm

I mean, Vanessa Hudgens just played Vanessa in In the Heights, and she's Irish, Native American, FIlipino, without outcry. How specifically are we going to start policing this? 

[massofmen]

Posted: 4/24/18 at 2:13pm

nice job everyone. Now only people who look perfect for the role can sing it. 
You know why people call some people "bleeding heart liberals" because of things like this. 

the giril just wanted to honor the music and sing the score. I want to make sure that no white girl ever again sings this score. that would be the only fair way to NEVER OFFEND ANYONE EVER AGAIN. 

Artists....close minded...one show at a time. unreal. 

[Dave28282]

Posted: 4/24/18 at 6:16pm

massofmen said: "nice job everyone. Now only people who look perfect for the role can sing it.
You know why people call some people "bleeding heart liberals" because of things like this.

the giril just wanted to honor the music and sing the score. I want to make sure that no white girl ever again sings this score. that would be the only fair way to NEVER OFFEND ANYONE EVER AGAIN.

Artists....close minded...one show at a time. unreal."

And of course every little black girl must know she is not allowed to sing any song from the Sound of Music, in any concert whatsoever. The separation wall has never reached this heights. But I suppose they are on the right path.....

 

[BroadwayRox3588]

Posted: 4/24/18 at 6:37pm

"I'm white, and I'm soooooooo oppressed. Oh, how ever shall I live in this anti-white world? WHY WON'T ANYONE THINK OF THE WHITES?"

[bk]

Posted: 4/24/18 at 6:38pm

Dave28282 has it all right.  And others, since Ms. Bogess did what she had to do due to boards like this, have all disappeared, presumably moving on to the next outrage.  The few of us who have been making the same points repeatedly have been called names, made fun of, been castigated, but in the end the points about true equality are true and the knee-jerk reactions and the endless how dare a white girl play Maria (she wasn't playing Maria - a Proms concert is just that and this one is a tribute to Mr. Bernstein and his songs - she was singing songs Maria sings in the show, BFD).  But that's social media for you.  

[Elfuhbuh]

Posted: 4/24/18 at 9:54pm

BroadwayRox3588 said: ""I'm white, and I'msoooooooooppressed. Oh, how ever shall I live in this anti-white world? WHY WON'T ANYONE THINK OF THE WHITES?""

Poor, poor white people being told we shouldn't have every single role in the universe and that we should give marginalized groups the chance to shine and tell stories about experiences that we have never gone through.

I really don't get what's so horrible about the idea that Latinx people feel that they should be allowed to represent their communities in shows heavily running on themes of racial tension and divide. It is literally no different than saying that it would be inappropriate to cast nonblack actors in the black roles in Hairspray, because where Hairspray focuses on racism and the racial tension between black and white people, West Side Story focuses on racism and the racial tension between white people and Puerto Ricans. I saw Latinas talking about how they felt like continuing a trend of white/non-Latina actresses taking the role of Maria excludes them from this important narrative, because it feels like they're being shoved out of a story that deeply reflects their and their families' history when this story is one that they specifically should be involved with in the first place. There are already very few Latina roles specifically written to be that way, so why all the fuss when Latinas want to feel represented in a world where 90% of female roles (probably more) are defaulted for white actresses?

Updated On: 4/24/18 at 09:54 PM

[bk]

Posted: 4/25/18 at 2:21am

Elfuhbuh said: "BroadwayRox3588 said: ""I'm white, and I'msoooooooooppressed. Oh, how ever shall I live in this anti-white world? WHY WON'T ANYONE THINK OF THE WHITES?""

Poor, poor white people being told we shouldn't have every single role in the universe and that we should give marginalized groups the chance to shine and tell stories about experiences that we have never gone through.

I really don't get what's so horrible about the idea that Latinx people feel that they should be allowed to represent their communities in shows heavily running on themes of racial tension and divide. It is literally no different than saying that it would be inappropriate to cast nonblack actors in the black roles in Hairspray, because where Hairspray focuses on racism and the racial tension between black and white people, West Side Story focuses on racism and the racial tension between white people and Puerto Ricans. I saw Latinas talking about how they felt like continuing a trend of white/non-Latina actresses taking the role of Maria excludes them from this important narrative, because it feels like they're being shoved out of a story that deeply reflects their and their families' history when this story is one that they specifically should be involved with in the first place. There are already very few Latina roles specifically written to be that way, so why all the fuss when Latinas want to feel represented in a world where 90% of female roles (probably more) are defaulted for white actresses?"

And how many times does it need to be said that this wasn't a show, this was not a production of West Side Story.  She was singing selections from the show, the Maria songs.  At a Proms Concert, one she's done before where audiences love her.  Shall we now ban all white people from singing songs from a show about POC?  Shall we? Music is a universal language.  And she was NOT playing the role of Maria in a production of West Side Story.  

[binau]

Posted: 4/25/18 at 3:36am

She will not be singing or playing in any concert - she has reportedly dropped out. Is this recent?

[troynow]

Posted: 4/25/18 at 9:37am

Yes Sierra dropped out because it was wRONG... it is about doscovering new people. The talent that can sing maria may be unknown.

However, the talent is unknow because of decades of producers and theatres giving those rare opportuntoes over to a person who is WHITE.

However, the same is happening at Williamstown witn Lempicka. They have foolishly yet again... tale a black tole and goven it away. Joesphine Baker was a black woman.

Take a look yet... no comments. No theeads... nothing

https://www.broadwayworld.com/article/Eden-Espinosa-Rachel-Tucker-Chita-Rivera-and-More-Announced-for-Williamstown-Theatre-Festival-20180424

[troynow]

Posted: 4/25/18 at 1:09pm

I may know nothing about thos show Lempicka... However, the cast says Joesphone Baler to be plaued by Kay Trinidad.

Look:
http://wtfestival.org/main-events/lempicka/

That is another black role taken!

[SeanD2]

Posted: 4/25/18 at 1:51pm

bk said: "And how many times does it need to be said that this wasn't a show, this was not a production of West Side Story. She was singing selections from the show, the Maria songs. At a Proms Concert, one she's done before where audiences love her. Shall we now ban all white people from singing songs from a show about POC? Shall we? Music is a universal language. And she was NOT playing the role of Maria in a production of West Side Story."

I think we all know this was a concert, and had it been announced as a tribute concert to Bernstein featuring Sierra Boggess as a soloist there probably wouldn't have been the same outrage as when it was announced she'd be singing the role of Maria. It was the Proms that connected her to the role she shouldn't have been directly associated with so it's on them. 

 

 

[CarlosAlberto]

Posted: 4/25/18 at 2:43pm

The best thing about this thread:

Tapping23 said:  ....and a very odd production of Cinderella with a very heavy latin kid playing the fairy godmother. Which would have been fine if his costuming hadn’t been awful but he sang that R&H score to jesus.


 

 



 

Updated On: 4/25/18 at 02:43 PM