Sondheim's weaker lyrics/rhymes- Page 9

[GavestonPS]

Posted: 1/12/14 at 5:36pm

Thank you, Joey.

***

artscallion, Sondheim knew exactly what he was doing with "movers and shapers". Mary is a writer and thinks of herself as quite the wit. Yes, technically, characters in a musical comedy don't know they are singing in rhymed couplets, but writers sometimes allow them this self-awareness for purposes of humor--see WICKED and "Popular". Mary's manipulation of the phrase "movers and shakers" is consistent with her self-image as a sort of modern day Dorothy Parker.

Updated On: 1/12/14 at 05:36 PM

[After Eight]

Posted: 1/12/14 at 7:11pm

"Actually it is profound,"

Actually, it is not the slightest bit profound. It's a cliché, presented in an annoying "aren't I clever" manner that everyone in the universe is and has been aware of long before the lyricist posited it as some sort of brilliant new insight.

It's like somebody priding himself on informing us that the world is round. Yeah, thanks, but you know what, we know that already.

So please, you and your whole cheerleading squad, give it a rest and give us a break already. We'll be so ever grateful and I assure you, not the slightest bit sorry.

Updated On: 1/12/14 at 07:11 PM

[GavestonPS]

Posted: 1/12/14 at 7:38pm

"Sorry/Grateful" may be the least self-consciously clever song Sondheim wrote during his "Prince" period.

After Eight, I can only assume you have been married for decades. How would you explain being married to a friend who has never been?

It's hardly my favorite Sondheim song, but given the complexity of the subject, I think it does rather well.



Updated On: 1/12/14 at 07:38 PM

[After Eight]

Posted: 1/12/14 at 7:44pm

^
I would tell him it's all lollipops and roses, and then we'd both have a good laugh over it.

[darquegk]

Posted: 1/12/14 at 8:09pm

It's all lollipops and roses, and then we have a good laugh over it, is probably the most overall telling statement After Eight has ever left on this site.

[GavestonPS]

Posted: 1/12/14 at 8:28pm

Too bad A8 always leaves before the climax of COMPANY. Lollipops and roses and laughter do not a marriage make, at least not all the time.

[Kad]

Posted: 1/12/14 at 8:31pm

"So please, you and your whole cheerleading squad, give it a rest and give us a break already."

"Us"?

God help us, is there another one of you?!

[After Eight]

Posted: 1/12/14 at 8:33pm

^

Uh, I've stayed to the bitter end (and boy is it bitter!), much to my everlasting chagrin.

[darquegk]

Posted: 1/12/14 at 8:42pm

A8 is not a Sondheim fan... A8 is a Sondheim CHARACTER.

[EricMontreal22]

Posted: 1/12/14 at 10:45pm

I think you hit the nail on the head!

[gcal]

Posted: 1/13/14 at 10:10am

Artscallion and Gaveston, Mary's "these are the movers..." is a throw back (throw forward?) to Our Time. Frank sings "Don't you know, we're the movers and we're the shapers. We're the names in tomorrow's papers. Up to us now to to show 'em." In the 15 years that I've been familiar with the show, I never realized that until today.

[GavestonPS]

Posted: 1/13/14 at 6:30pm

Oops, well never mind my thesis on Mary as wanna be Dorothy Parker then.

Though, as you point out, given the structure of the show, it's an open argument as to which reference comes "first".

But perhaps it's just a lyricist taking a liberty. Lyricists do that sort of thing, which is why the things a character sings seem "heightened" over what s/he says. And the young Frank writes satyrical reviews, so I'm not convinced a pun on "movers and shakers" is beyond him.

I have to admit the line never really stood out to me until I heard Mary sing it in the recent movie house showing. Personally, I like it. It suits the general education and sophistication of the characters; it's not as if Fosca sings it.

Thanks for the correction.

[Someone in a Tree2]

Posted: 1/14/14 at 3:35pm

if you wait long enough an example will come to mind.
Mine is from one of the greatest songs ever penned about New York City:

The ones who stay
Can find each other in the crowded streets and the guarded parks,
By the rusty fountains and the dusty trees with the battered barks,
And they walk together past the postered walls with the crude remarks.

Sorry, but "dusty trees with the battered barks"? Nobody in the world thinks the plural of bark is anything but bark. A tree has a little bark or a lot of bark, but never barks. Right?

[artscallion]

Posted: 1/14/14 at 3:45pm

Barks is correct, to me. A tree (singular) has bark. But trees (plural) have barks. Just like a dog has a coat. But dogs have coats. So dusty trees (plural) have battered barks.

Updated On: 1/14/14 at 03:45 PM

[newintown]

Posted: 1/14/14 at 3:54pm

Song lyrics aren't colloquial speech. They are heightened expression (if they're good).

It's not a flaw just because you've never before heard it expressed that way.

Period.

[Someone in a Tree2]

Posted: 1/14/14 at 4:06pm

With all due respect, I think everything else in ANOTHER HUNDRED PEOPLE was written very deliberately in precisely the every day speech that Marta uses in the rest of her scenes. It's pure poetry but it's also strictly colloquial.

Bark is a material like wool or steel or asphalt that generally doesn't get pluralized (unless we're talking about dogs barking). You can't say "look at all the steels in those skyscraper structures", or "watch out for the broken asphalts in the bike paths". Same with tree bark.

[Reginald Tresilian]

Posted: 1/14/14 at 4:09pm

I disagree. You can identify various trees by their barks.

[kdogg36]

Posted: 1/14/14 at 4:17pm

The lyric has never bothered me, but I agree with Someone, now that I think about it. Bark is basically a mass noun; like most mass nouns, you can coax it into being a count noun by referring to different varieties ("elm bark, oak bark, and maple bark are my favorite barks"). This is what Reginald is getting at. However, I don't think Marta is referring to different varieties of bark. I would say "all the trees had brown bark," not "all the trees had brown barks."

I'm wiling to chalk it up to Marta's general quirkiness, though.

Updated On: 1/14/14 at 04:17 PM

[newintown]

Posted: 1/14/14 at 4:31pm

I don't think "Another hundred people just got off of the train and came up through the ground, while another hundred people just got off of the bus and are looking around at another hundred people who got off of the plane and are looking at us who got off of the train and the plane and the bus maybe yesterday" is a colloquial phrasing.

[Reginald Tresilian]

Posted: 1/14/14 at 4:33pm

Ha.

[Someone in a Tree2]

Posted: 1/14/14 at 4:34pm

Thanks, kdogg. Well put.

And Newintown, yes, that's all pretty colloquial, especially the run-on sentence structure.

Updated On: 1/14/14 at 04:34 PM

[newintown]

Posted: 1/14/14 at 4:38pm

Maybe where you live...

[GavestonPS]

Posted: 1/14/14 at 5:09pm

"The trees in Central Park have battered bark."

"The trees in Central Park have battered barks."

Neither sentence is incorrect, but I think the latter sounds more like natural speech.

What strikes me, however, is that we are skipping over the "dusty" trees. How are the trees in Central Park any dustier than any other trees. They aren't; Sondheim wanted the internal rhyme of dusty/rusty.

But I can't honestly say this has ever bothered me, and perhaps he meant to contrast urban trees with carefully manicured and watered suburban trees.

[kdogg36]

Posted: 1/14/14 at 5:45pm

"The trees in Central Park have battered bark."

"The trees in Central Park have battered barks."

Neither sentence is incorrect, but I think the latter sounds more like natural speech.

Ah, maybe what we have going on here are dialectal or even idiolectal differences. The second one is not natural for me, but maybe we have slightly different grammars, and yours agrees with Sondheim and Marta!

[themysteriousgrowl]

Posted: 1/14/14 at 6:00pm

I'm with you on that specific point, kdogg. The first one feels more natural in my mouth, too.