Taylor Mac and 'judy'

Kad said: "I think Taylor Mac would tell you not to worry too much about it.

"My gender is performer and my gender pronoun is 'judy’ because I wanted a gender pronoun that is an art piece, that makes people pause and consider and laugh because everyone is so uptight about getting it right.”

https://www.latimes.com/entertainment/arts/la-et-cm-taylor-mac-los-angeles-20180314-story.html"

Man, I wish this was clearer in his bio! (Instead of just declaring without explanation that Taylor Mac uses the gender pronoun judy.) Knowing that he himself is laughing about it makes me respect him a WHOLE lot more. Because it IS ridiculous. Really, my whole opinion of him just changed based on this thread, so thank you!

I get this kind of confusing for cis people (including myself), but I think for Mac gender is a complicated thing, something that goes beyond our understanding of it. Everyone has a different understanding of gender and I get some people will not like any non-binary pronouns or maybe any pronoun past "they/them", but I for one actually like 'judy' as Mac's pronouns. It's a little tricky to use at times (mostly in conversions irl, online it's not hard at all), but it's also kind of fun. Judy is right that you can't help but smile when saying it.

GavestonPS said: "If people are really so non-binary identified, we have neuter pronouns in English: it/its/itself."

Unless someone is really pushing 'it/itself', I would really avoid that since that is very dehumanizing (at least that's from my point of view). 'It' basically makes someone an object and, again, it's okay if that is how a person identifies with that, but I've known almost no non-binary people who would be fine with 'it'.



"Using they/their for an individual makes many paragraphs incomprehensible.!"

I don't get how? Like if you mean it's plural, 'they/them' has not been solely used in the plural sense. It's been used as a singular pronoun since Shakespeare. I get it can be confusing with either multiple people or with multiple non-binary folk, but that problem is the exact same with multiple men or multiple women. Here's a really good video from Tom Scott, a man with a degree in linguistics, that explains it very well

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=46ehrFk-gLk

Updated On: 4/3/19 at 11:12 PM

Mac isn't dismissive of nonbinary pronouns, per se. It's just not what he's focused on as an artist. He uses "judy" to make a point- gender is a construct, so have fun with it, and if you don't like someone identifying as "judy," well, just try being dismissive of it without looking a little silly yourself:

"The other part is that I’m an artist, and it’s part of my job to make people think outside their norms a little bit. And I wanted a gender pronoun that was fun, and that immediately emasculates you – because you can’t roll your eyes and say ‘judy’ without being camp.” (The Guardian)

Few are seriously advocating for the elimination of binary pronouns, or for everyone at all times to be aware of every single pronoun possibility and to know exactly when and with whom to use them, but if you encounter a person and they tell you they prefer "they" or "hir" or "judy," you should at least respect that and try to adjust your language accordingly. You wouldn't dismiss a Jew who keeps kosher for asking for a meal that doesn't mix dairy and meat as being ridiculous for requesting the accommodation, even if slightly inconveniences you .

Updated On: 4/4/19 at 09:52 AM

DoTheDood said: "GavestonPS said: "If people are really so non-binary identified, we have neuter pronouns in English: it/its/itself."

Unless someone is really pushing 'it/itself', I would really avoid that since that is very dehumanizing (at least that's from my point of view). 'It' basically makes someone an object and, again, it's okay if that is how a person identifies with that, but I've known almost no non-binary people who would be fine with 'it'...."

Tough titty (to quote THE ROAR OF THE GREASEPAINT)! If people are hellbent on reinventing language (something I do not necessarily oppose), then let them reinvent the English words we already have for nonbinary gender. Make "it" personal in the process, if it likes.

As for the confusion of the "singular they" (a term I just learned yesterday), yes, it occurs when a sentence or paragraph refers to both an individual as "they" and a group as "they". Which is not at all uncommon. The fact that Sondheim uses the singular they impresses me more than Shakespeare, but not enough to tip the scale.

Yes, "they" and all pronouns require a little identification to avoid confusion. (My husband drives me crazy with this, because he will suddenly begin a discussion with a pronoun but without identifying who is "he", "she" or "they".)

As a rule, I am all for self-labeling. And I understand the video's point (thank you, DoTheDood) that all language is constructed not organic. Nonetheless we have the language we have. I haven't minded periodically changing the terms I use for race, ethnicity, sexual orientation and gender. But those changes mostly reflected universally accepted characteristics. As I've said, I'm no more convinced that "nonbinary gender" is a thing than I am that "bisexuality" is a thing (except in describing most individuals' capacity for sexual response or some individuals' sexual behavior over a lifetime).

Moreover, I agree with the poster above who says that those who insist on their "nonbinary" gender identity do more to reassert the gender binary than those of us who merely follow tradition.

But while I'm on the subject, I admit I'm not entirely consistent. I *DO* use "s/he" and "hir" when writing on the internet. These are actually clearer and more efficient than the traditional, written choices. I simply decline to have my language choices subjected to the tyranny of the pseudo-leftist vocabulary police.

When I was teaching I kept track of my usage during lectures and alternated "he" and "she" when referring to the typical playwright or director, say, to avoid implying that such persons are necessarily one gender or another.

Updated On: 4/5/19 at 11:39 PM

ray-andallthatjazz86 said: "The Distinctive Baritone said: "Sex/gender only matters when you are looking to make babies or are receiving medical care. Otherwise it’s irrelevant and should not be given so much thought."

Ah, yes, I bet if you are a straight cis dude this comment makes a lot of sense. For the rest of us... not so much. But I’m glad you’ve established sex/gender only matters when it comes to breeding and doctors. Is this really how low the bar is set for so-called allies? Give me a break, dude."

I think DB's point was that "gender SHOULD only matter" in those instances that deal with procreation. S/he knows that people are often treated differently based on perceptions of their gender. But we get it: it sucks to be you.

GavestonPS said: "I support differently gendered people (though I'm suspicious that "non-binary identified" is anything but a fad with a very short shelf life)."

WOW! A fad? How conservative of you! Your comment comes close to, "I love gay people; just hate the sin!" There are people who believe being gay is a choice or just a fad!

Full disclosure: straight, cis, no actual dog in this fight, but I do have a women, gender and queer studies master's certification I got (partially by accident) back in 2013. This is when the question of nontraditional pronouns was first really coming into public discussion in a big way, and ALSO when Tumblr was moving from being a basic Myspace replacement to being the center of the burgeoning "queer teenagers" internet. Around this time, phenomena like "otherkin" and furries began to play in the same circles that previously had been about LGBTQ identity, and most people dismissed this as either a fad or mental illness. But I still remember a class-long discussion of "other identity play" of that sort, and the question my teacher raised: "if we can reject and reinvent first standard identifiers of sexuality, and then do the same with gender, are we, or are we not, able to do the same with all factors of identity? Or even with identity itself? We decide WHO we are, and HOW we are- why not WHAT we are as well?"

Perhaps this is just a long-winded way of saying I get the humor and serious intent in the use of "judy," but wonder if its deliberate playfulness and absurdity isn't harming the overall discourse by legitimizing trollery like the "I sexually identify as an attack helicopter" joke that keeps circulating the internet.

The difference between Taylor Mac's "judy" and an internet troll's "attack helicopter" is that the latter is lacking good faith, but the question they both raise- "why can't we decide what we are?"- is the same, and could be put to anyone's identity/pronoun use.

(sidebar: I am glad that the "otherkin" phenomena has quietly died off).

Updated On: 4/5/19 at 12:16 PM

GavestonPS said: "ray-andallthatjazz86 said: "The Distinctive Baritone said: "Sex/gender only matters when you are looking to make babies or are receiving medical care. Otherwise it’s irrelevant and should not be given so much thought."

Ah, yes, I bet if you are a straight cis dude this comment makes a lot of sense. For the rest of us... not so much. But I’m glad you’ve established sex/gender only matters when it comes to breeding and doctors. Is this really how low the bar is set for so-called allies? Give me a break, dude."

I think DB's point was that "gender SHOULD only matter" in those instances that deal with procreation. S/he knows that people are often treated differently based on perceptions of their gender. But we get it: it sucks to be you."

Since both my original post and my response to ray-andallthatjazz86 were deleted by the moderators, but my post is still being referenced in a quote, I will clarify my opinion with this, and then walk away from this conversation: if gender (as opposed to biological sex) is indeed an unnecessary social construct, then we should dissolve that social construct, not add to it with even more pronouns. Anything beyond he, she, and they just digs us deeper into this hole we've already made for ourselves over the centuries with our misguided ideas about gender.

Thank you, and goodnight.