The great irony: homophobic conservatives who love RENT — Page 7

I have not engaged in name calling. I just want you to understand that even though being gay is not the only thing that defines me, it's pretty big. And if you say that you do not support what is part of me than I cannot see how it is dissimilar to not liking blacks for their color or jews for their beliefs. I never chose my homosexuality. I never chose my eye color or my skin color. It is who I am. And it goes beyond being offensive. Why would you not accept someone just like you. You think that you are free of sin? If my supposed sin is what bothers you, take confort in knowing that you too are a sinner. And in the eyes of GOD we are equal.

Updated On: 8/4/05 at 12:03 AM

chita33, thanks. I'm trying to respond to your PM. One moment please.

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Please do not think I am saying being gay is a sin. But if Derech2 thinks it is, he must know that he too is a sinner. All I'm saying is how come he seperates himself from "gay sin" and his own sinning. Isn't it all sin?

If you believe that. I for one believe that GOD created me and he does not make mistakes. I am what he intended.

Updated On: 8/4/05 at 12:13 AM

Guys, goodnight. You inspire me. I am happy to have found this community of theatre lovers. silence=death.

edit: and I'm not that classy. I have my moments of misguided bitchiness...just ask jrb_actor.

Updated On: 8/4/05 at 12:19 AM

I know jrb_actor already has beef with me, but here I go.

I don't think all this name-calling is going to get us anywhere.
Derech stated his opinion, and was thrashed for doing so.
Derech thinks it's a sin, because (I'm assuming, and correct me if I'm wrong) he thinks that homosexuals perhaps weren't born gay. You disagree, and that's fine.
You may think you know that you were born gay, but couldn't you be wrong, just as Derech may be wrong?
Can't you believe something with all your heart, and still be wrong in the end?
That statement was directed to both sides.

So he stated his opinion, just as others have stated theirs, but his was contrary to most, and name calling / stereotyping ensued.

And his intent was not offend, as I see it (and I could be wrong), but to state his opinion.
This whole board is about stating opinions, no?

It just didn't seem very fair.

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Updated On: 8/4/05 at 12:44 AM

What if I pulled out the Bible and just like in the 60s used it to promote that blacks should be put down? That they deserve no rights? That we should be a segregated society? What if I used that same Bible that you pray with to promote that slavery is a good thing and the way God intended.

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Derech2, good luck with defending yourself, because that is all you can do when people put words in your mouth, call you names, and accuse you of many things just for saying what you believe.

My gosh! It just seems so unfair to me for you to ask:

"Why do they love this show so much when it celebrates people and ideals they stand against?"

And when someone answers your question, you immediately turn it into an argument about WHY they stand against these people and ideals (and I'm obviously not referring just to jrb_actor). If he can't honestly answer your friendly inquiery without being attacked and ridiculed, there is no point going on further.

Personally, as a straight conservative who, although does not agree with these views of homosexuality, has never just blatantly shown hatred toward someone for this, I have never felt so hated on this board...I think one of the greatest examples of love is when someone from my and Derech2's point of view can interact and get along with someone of the opposite point of view while still being aloud to believe what they do and discuss without hatred. If you always jump to be the victim and immediately accuse all straight conservatives as being haters and bigots, do you really think that that is what is going to change their minds? I know it goes both ways, but in this thread Derech2 (sorry to keep using you as the example) has tried to be calm, collected and mature while several others have made that very hard for him. I try very hard to not stereotype liberals or homosexuals as all being those who will immediately label me as someone who thinks all gays are going to burn in hell and is going to play the victim and tell me I am being intollerant and hateful (when they are in fact being intollerant of my beliefs). I think that is a terrible stereotype as is the stereotype that all conservative Christians think gays are all going to burn in hell and have no place in society...

I can't go on. I sincerely hope I have not offended anyone too much or made anyone feel hated in any way. Truly. I wish you all the best and look forward to sharing our love of theatre in a safe, loving environment for a long time to come. Thank you for this chance to explain how a show like Rent reaches such a wide audience, even people you really wouldn't expect.

Good night, and I'll see you after the Today Show.

OK - name calling is not going to sway anyone to one side or the other. I don't agree with Derech2's beliefs, but I have to give him/her some credit for saying something that he/she knows is going to be unpopular. At least there is a discussion, which is better than silence.

The truth of the matter is that some people, no matter what you say, cannot in their minds equate homosexuality with race. Whether they view it as a choice, or something else, I am not sure, but the discussion has started to tailspin into something that makes me feel that intolerance is being embraced on both sides.

Do I equate homosexuality, and the discrimination against gays with other forms of prejudice . . . honestly, I do not know. Do I think gays should be able to marry - in state ceremonies, yes - in church ceremonies, well, that is up to the church - should gay couples be able to adopt - absolutely. Should a gay couple be entitled to certain benefits usually reserved to married coupples, yes, but, there needs to be some level of proof or certification. It is true that you are born who you are, gay or straight. Black or White. But, for some reason, I have a hard time equating a prejudice against conduct, which, when you get to the core of it is what people oppose when they say they hate homosexuals, to a prejudice against skin color. I just think there is a difference. I am sure if I was gay, I would feel differently. If I was gay and black, who knows how I would feel. Being a white, straight woman, this is the best I can do.

I hope that makes sense.

Updated On: 8/4/05 at 01:02 AM

Well allow me to ENLIGHTEN you that I do feel JUST as offended as a black person would. It IS something I was born to be.

And EVEN EVEN EVEN if it wasn't, how about I open that Bible and start spouting beliefs against Jews? Against Mormons? Against Catholics?

Religion IS a choice. It IS something that you are taught. So, do attempt to enlighten me as to how this is different from being gay for those of you who (very wrongly) believe that it is not something God made me to be.

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When you constantly see stuff like this
http://www.datalounge.com/cgi-bin/iowa/english/forum/threaded/trolls/newbies/gossip/politics/page-1/thread/1869057/page-1.html

or this
http://www.specialguests.com/guests/viewnews.cgi?id=EEkEAyylEFrfTNaqsO&tmpl=default

or this
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2005/08/02/AR2005080201914.html

or this
http://www.washblade.com/thelatest/thelatest.cfm?blog_id=1814

(and all this was from within the last several days)
it's difficult not to be defensive.

You know what, people have a right to be intolerant asses. This thread has demonstrated that for both sides of the argument. Some folks are just not going to concede that homosexuality is part of life and natural for some. Some people are so overwhelmed by the thought of two men having sex that they just cannot accept that this is how God created man. You cannot change people's beliefs by calling them names. You cannot make people comfortable with the image by attacking them.

I was trying to explain why some folks may view race and homosexuality differently. You don't. Fine. You raised the question on how folks could distinguish the two and I tried to answer it. Next time I won't.

I never said or implied that homosexuality is a choice. So don'g start putting words in my mouth. Not everyone is going to agree with everyting I or you believe. And, they have a right to their opinions, as I do I, and as do you. You want to spout hate, go ahead. It is your right, so long as you do not act upon your hatred. (which is the problem . . . people are acting upon their hatred or intolerance of homosexuality . . .)

And, by the way, some folks view Judiaism as a race as well as a religion, so to an extent, it is not always a choice.

Go ahead, attack some more.

well said jrb....it's funny how the haters never have a come-back when you ask them to explain the difference between bigotry towards, race or sexual orientation. This derech is beyond hope....we can only hope that he does not reproduce to create more haters.
There is no difference between him and fred Phelps, but of course he won't see it that way. They never do.
And the worst of them, as he does, tries to be so nice and proper when hating.....it just cracks me.......reminds me so much of the smiling, friendly Nazi giving the nice Jewish woman a hand into the showers.
I've heard stories about his type from my Jewish relatives......there are still very old Nazis who attempt to justify what they did.......and we always see through them.

And then there are the "rentaholics" and the "youwantits" who ride the coat-tails of the haters, never quite having the guts to admit their own prejudices......

Apparently, as in Brave New World.....all animals are NOT equal........I truly pity these people.........

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It is not out of hatred that I would think that I have to make myself straight. It's would be out of my love for God, so i could live according to how I see He wants me to live.

I say would, because I'm not sure if it is.
But if it were, it's my belief, and if you believe that you're living how God wants you to live, then it's what you believe.
Amen, so be it.


This was more directed at jrb_actor.

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