The great irony: homophobic conservatives who love RENT- Page 7

Posted: 8/4/05 at 12:03am

I have not engaged in name calling. I just want you to understand that even though being gay is not the only thing that defines me, it's pretty big. And if you say that you do not support what is part of me than I cannot see how it is dissimilar to not liking blacks for their color or jews for their beliefs. I never chose my homosexuality. I never chose my eye color or my skin color. It is who I am. And it goes beyond being offensive. Why would you not accept someone just like you. You think that you are free of sin? If my supposed sin is what bothers you, take confort in knowing that you too are a sinner. And in the eyes of GOD we are equal.
Updated On: 8/4/05 at 12:03 AM

[ZONEACE]

Posted: 8/4/05 at 12:06am

oh come on, just say it, just say what you've been dying to say since the thread started, you think i'm (and everyone else who shares a certain aspect of my person) a dirty faggot that's gonna burn in hell for my dirty deeds. Come on, let everyone see your true colors. stop hiding behind your false words and attempts of nicities. Just say what you honestly believe.

[Derech2]

Posted: 8/4/05 at 12:07am

chita33, thanks. I'm trying to respond to your PM. One moment please.

[jrb_actor]

Posted: 8/4/05 at 12:09am

Well, I will have it known right here and right now that I am NOT going to hell for being gay. It is NOT an absolute that being gay is a sin. And, instead of choosing to believe that gay people that you watch onstage and enjoy their writing and chat with on BWW are sinners, you could open your mind and go to a church that doesn't promote hatred.

Posted: 8/4/05 at 12:13am

Please do not think I am saying being gay is a sin. But if Derech2 thinks it is, he must know that he too is a sinner. All I'm saying is how come he seperates himself from "gay sin" and his own sinning. Isn't it all sin?

If you believe that. I for one believe that GOD created me and he does not make mistakes. I am what he intended.

Updated On: 8/4/05 at 12:13 AM

[ZONEACE]

Posted: 8/4/05 at 12:16am

damn you chita for being so classy.

Posted: 8/4/05 at 12:19am

Guys, goodnight. You inspire me. I am happy to have found this community of theatre lovers. silence=death.

edit: and I'm not that classy. I have my moments of misguided bitchiness...just ask jrb_actor.
Updated On: 8/4/05 at 12:19 AM

[Derech2]

Posted: 8/4/05 at 12:24am

Sleep tight, chita.

[LostLeander]

Posted: 8/4/05 at 12:44am

I know jrb_actor already has beef with me, but here I go.

I don't think all this name-calling is going to get us anywhere.
Derech stated his opinion, and was thrashed for doing so.
Derech thinks it's a sin, because (I'm assuming, and correct me if I'm wrong) he thinks that homosexuals perhaps weren't born gay. You disagree, and that's fine.
You may think you know that you were born gay, but couldn't you be wrong, just as Derech may be wrong?
Can't you believe something with all your heart, and still be wrong in the end?
That statement was directed to both sides.

So he stated his opinion, just as others have stated theirs, but his was contrary to most, and name calling / stereotyping ensued.

And his intent was not offend, as I see it (and I could be wrong), but to state his opinion.
This whole board is about stating opinions, no?

It just didn't seem very fair.

Updated On: 8/4/05 at 12:44 AM

[jrb_actor]

Posted: 8/4/05 at 12:46am

So, LL, how would you feel if I said that I didn't support black people? That I think it's a sin for them to be equal to white people? That I think it's a sin for a black person to marry a white person?

[jrb_actor]

Posted: 8/4/05 at 12:53am

What if I pulled out the Bible and just like in the 60s used it to promote that blacks should be put down? That they deserve no rights? That we should be a segregated society? What if I used that same Bible that you pray with to promote that slavery is a good thing and the way God intended.

[Calvin]

Posted: 8/4/05 at 12:54am

"You may think you know that you were born gay, but couldn't you be wrong, just as Derech may be wrong?"

I think we're in a better position to make that judgement than he.

[Rentaholic2]

Posted: 8/4/05 at 1:00am

Derech2, good luck with defending yourself, because that is all you can do when people put words in your mouth, call you names, and accuse you of many things just for saying what you believe.

My gosh! It just seems so unfair to me for you to ask:

"Why do they love this show so much when it celebrates people and ideals they stand against?"

And when someone answers your question, you immediately turn it into an argument about WHY they stand against these people and ideals (and I'm obviously not referring just to jrb_actor). If he can't honestly answer your friendly inquiery without being attacked and ridiculed, there is no point going on further.

Personally, as a straight conservative who, although does not agree with these views of homosexuality, has never just blatantly shown hatred toward someone for this, I have never felt so hated on this board...I think one of the greatest examples of love is when someone from my and Derech2's point of view can interact and get along with someone of the opposite point of view while still being aloud to believe what they do and discuss without hatred. If you always jump to be the victim and immediately accuse all straight conservatives as being haters and bigots, do you really think that that is what is going to change their minds? I know it goes both ways, but in this thread Derech2 (sorry to keep using you as the example) has tried to be calm, collected and mature while several others have made that very hard for him. I try very hard to not stereotype liberals or homosexuals as all being those who will immediately label me as someone who thinks all gays are going to burn in hell and is going to play the victim and tell me I am being intollerant and hateful (when they are in fact being intollerant of my beliefs). I think that is a terrible stereotype as is the stereotype that all conservative Christians think gays are all going to burn in hell and have no place in society...

I can't go on. I sincerely hope I have not offended anyone too much or made anyone feel hated in any way. Truly. I wish you all the best and look forward to sharing our love of theatre in a safe, loving environment for a long time to come. Thank you for this chance to explain how a show like Rent reaches such a wide audience, even people you really wouldn't expect.

Good night, and I'll see you after the Today Show.

[LostLeander]

Posted: 8/4/05 at 1:00am

It wouldn't feel very good.
But if I read his opinion correctly, then he doesn't believe that people were born gay. So there's another way.
Right or wrong, that's his opinion, so the ethnicity questions are moot points.

If you don't buy into that, which you don't, he didn't state his views on equal rights, and the like. People just assumed that he thought homosexuals were sub-human.

And whoever said that it was vague of him not to detail what "not supporting" meant, they were right.
But that doesn't mean one can just go on making assumptions then.

And if you told me you thought it was a sin to intermarry racially, I would have to respect your opinion, disagree, and marry an white person, if that's what I wanted to do.

[YouWantitWhen????]

Posted: 8/4/05 at 1:02am

OK - name calling is not going to sway anyone to one side or the other. I don't agree with Derech2's beliefs, but I have to give him/her some credit for saying something that he/she knows is going to be unpopular. At least there is a discussion, which is better than silence.

The truth of the matter is that some people, no matter what you say, cannot in their minds equate homosexuality with race. Whether they view it as a choice, or something else, I am not sure, but the discussion has started to tailspin into something that makes me feel that intolerance is being embraced on both sides.

Do I equate homosexuality, and the discrimination against gays with other forms of prejudice . . . honestly, I do not know. Do I think gays should be able to marry - in state ceremonies, yes - in church ceremonies, well, that is up to the church - should gay couples be able to adopt - absolutely. Should a gay couple be entitled to certain benefits usually reserved to married coupples, yes, but, there needs to be some level of proof or certification. It is true that you are born who you are, gay or straight. Black or White. But, for some reason, I have a hard time equating a prejudice against conduct, which, when you get to the core of it is what people oppose when they say they hate homosexuals, to a prejudice against skin color. I just think there is a difference. I am sure if I was gay, I would feel differently. If I was gay and black, who knows how I would feel. Being a white, straight woman, this is the best I can do.

I hope that makes sense.



Updated On: 8/4/05 at 01:02 AM

[teth]

Posted: 8/4/05 at 1:08am

I think I can see why a homophobic person may still like RENT, despite its homosexual content. It's like the person see it as a form of entertainment they can enjoy...and that it's separate from the reality they personally know and experience.

Nonetheless, homophobia is not something I believe in (espeically since I don't believe in the Bible in the first place. :P)

[jrb_actor]

Posted: 8/4/05 at 1:11am

Well allow me to ENLIGHTEN you that I do feel JUST as offended as a black person would. It IS something I was born to be.

And EVEN EVEN EVEN if it wasn't, how about I open that Bible and start spouting beliefs against Jews? Against Mormons? Against Catholics?

Religion IS a choice. It IS something that you are taught. So, do attempt to enlighten me as to how this is different from being gay for those of you who (very wrongly) believe that it is not something God made me to be.

Posted: 8/4/05 at 1:15am

youwantitwhen in response to your recent post....oookkayyyy! I'm up! How is being prejudiced towards homosexuals a prejudice against conduct? I can sit still in this chair for the rest of my life and still be gay. Without kissing or making love to anyone ever again. Gay. I was born gay and I will die gay. My conduct is no different than that of a heterosexual woman. I love. I'm afraid of getting hurt. I flirt. I sabotage relationships. I send mixed messages. I yearn for companionship. I yearn to be alone. My conduct is no different than yours.


Updated On: 8/4/05 at 01:15 AM

[Calvin]

Posted: 8/4/05 at 1:20am

When you constantly see stuff like this
http://www.datalounge.com/cgi-bin/iowa/english/forum/threaded/trolls/newbies/gossip/politics/page-1/thread/1869057/page-1.html

or this
http://www.specialguests.com/guests/viewnews.cgi?id=EEkEAyylEFrfTNaqsO&tmpl=default

or this
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2005/08/02/AR2005080201914.html

or this
http://www.washblade.com/thelatest/thelatest.cfm?blog_id=1814

(and all this was from within the last several days)
it's difficult not to be defensive.

[jrb_actor]

Posted: 8/4/05 at 1:24am

Exactly. You look all around and see the things that people who "do not support homosexuality" do and are trying to do to us--and you wonder why we get bent out of shape? You wonder why we won't tolerate such beliefs?

It's that very hateful world that has made LostLeander think he has to make himself straight. We are living in such hateful times. You conservative/anti-gay folk are just going to have to deal. Because things are very heated right now. And, until we are given equal rights in this country--it's going to stay that way!

Updated On: 8/4/05 at 01:24 AM

[YouWantitWhen????]

Posted: 8/4/05 at 1:31am

You know what, people have a right to be intolerant asses. This thread has demonstrated that for both sides of the argument. Some folks are just not going to concede that homosexuality is part of life and natural for some. Some people are so overwhelmed by the thought of two men having sex that they just cannot accept that this is how God created man. You cannot change people's beliefs by calling them names. You cannot make people comfortable with the image by attacking them.

I was trying to explain why some folks may view race and homosexuality differently. You don't. Fine. You raised the question on how folks could distinguish the two and I tried to answer it. Next time I won't.

I never said or implied that homosexuality is a choice. So don'g start putting words in my mouth. Not everyone is going to agree with everyting I or you believe. And, they have a right to their opinions, as I do I, and as do you. You want to spout hate, go ahead. It is your right, so long as you do not act upon your hatred. (which is the problem . . . people are acting upon their hatred or intolerance of homosexuality . . .)

And, by the way, some folks view Judiaism as a race as well as a religion, so to an extent, it is not always a choice.

Go ahead, attack some more.

[LostLeander]

Posted: 8/4/05 at 1:41am

Well allow me to ENLIGHTEN you that I do feel JUST as offended as a black person would. It IS something I was born to be.

And EVEN EVEN EVEN if it wasn't, how about I open that Bible and start spouting beliefs against Jews? Against Mormons? Against Catholics?

Religion IS a choice. It IS something that you are taught. So, do attempt to enlighten me as to how this is different from being gay for those of you who (very wrongly) believe that it is not something God made me to be.

My problem is that you are doing the very thing that you hate. You are calling me wrong for an OPINION.
I am offended that you think I (very wrongly) believe in something.

And I'm glad you're SO 100% sure that you are right.
This is your belief.

Might I add that I'm offended by all the hatred I feel because I believe something different than you?

And you know what, the Bible can be used "against" all those religions. Christianity is a narrow religion. Very very narrow. But please understand that we believe we are just as sin-filled as everyone else. You said it yourself, everyone is equal in God's eyes.

But that's not the point, really. The way you're coming accross is that you refuse to give our beliefs any credibility, because they're "wrong".

And I'm sorry Calvin, I really am.

[Elphaba]

Posted: 8/4/05 at 1:42am

well said jrb....it's funny how the haters never have a come-back when you ask them to explain the difference between bigotry towards, race or sexual orientation. This derech is beyond hope....we can only hope that he does not reproduce to create more haters.
There is no difference between him and fred Phelps, but of course he won't see it that way. They never do.
And the worst of them, as he does, tries to be so nice and proper when hating.....it just cracks me.......reminds me so much of the smiling, friendly Nazi giving the nice Jewish woman a hand into the showers.
I've heard stories about his type from my Jewish relatives......there are still very old Nazis who attempt to justify what they did.......and we always see through them.

And then there are the "rentaholics" and the "youwantits" who ride the coat-tails of the haters, never quite having the guts to admit their own prejudices......

Apparently, as in Brave New World.....all animals are NOT equal........I truly pity these people.........

[YouWantitWhen????]

Posted: 8/4/05 at 1:44am

OK - let me try to explain.

Most people who have a problems with homosexuals only have a problem when gay men and women actually lead their lives as intended . . . i.e., they fall in love with someone, have a relatonship, have sex . . . live. I may be inartful in my explanation, but, what I was trying to get at is that the issue is not the person first, it is the person's conduct that triggers all of the hate. Now, it is kind of like a chicken and an egg discussion, because if you are gay, and lead your life open, well then, they are going to hate you. But, if you are gay, and deny who you are, and engage in conduct that they find to be "acceptable" then suddenly well, you are no longer gay. Which, is, of course, nonsense. Getting back to some of the earlier discussions on this thread, it is how folks can say I like Queer Eye, but then recoil at Queer as Folks.

It is getting late, and I am not sure that makes sense. And, being a white, straight female, I may be so off the mark that it makes all of this typing a useless waste of time. This whole thread has started to give me a headache.

If I offended, that was not my intent. Just trying to figure out things as I go along.

[LostLeander]

Posted: 8/4/05 at 1:48am

It is not out of hatred that I would think that I have to make myself straight. It's would be out of my love for God, so i could live according to how I see He wants me to live.

I say would, because I'm not sure if it is.
But if it were, it's my belief, and if you believe that you're living how God wants you to live, then it's what you believe.
Amen, so be it.


This was more directed at jrb_actor.