The great irony: homophobic conservatives who love RENT- Page 9

[Greekmusicalfan]

Posted: 8/4/05 at 1:02pm

Rentaholic, I NEVER said what anyone SHOULD or SHOULD not do, I am not that kind of person. I clearly said that I was dissapointed by Derech's post and that I find it odd. I expresed MY opinion only ! I hope I can still do this here ! And I can understand if you were -wrongly- offended, but who gave you the right to speak about gay people or the theater community in general ?
Let me say what I mean in other terms ! If I went to a conservative red state and went around saying "I don't support heterosexuality, it's against my beliefs, sorry" do you think that I would go unnoticed ? So, why do you expect comments such as Derech's to go unnoticed here, which, whether you like it or not, is a community with a lot of gay people ?
With what you say about RENT, I agree !
And as an observation, straights and gays have managed to get along fine here because our love for theater unites us ! But it is a fact, that everytime the old gay vs. straight "war" starts, it it triggered by a straight member's post ! Updated On: 8/4/05 at 01:02 PM

[Calvin]

Posted: 8/4/05 at 1:15pm

I just wanted to interject that in my short time on these boards, this is the best conversation I've been involved in so far.

And that the aforementioned episode of "Designing Women" was one of the few times I disagreed with Julia Sugarbaker.

[ZONEACE]

Posted: 8/4/05 at 1:24pm

i think that since we seem to have all decided that these people can hate us because of out sexuality I think its time i completely give up the high ground and start hating people of racial minorities and maybe women. Those blacks, they're trouble, they'll rob you in the middle of the day, with weapons. It's horrible what they do. and those arabs, OMG, all of them are terrorist, we should hunt down every person born, or influenced by anyone from the middle east, especially the men. and after that, we can go after the asians who eat cats and dogs. that is an abomonation. and don't even get me started on women. They are so useless, with there evil vaginas. the only wa to conrol them is keep them out of the work place and in the kitchen making my damn dinner. And you know, while we are on the topic of hating people jsut because we can, the handicapped, mental or physical should all be done away with.





Now that we have all read this post, and probably excreted a brick. How is anything up there different from what is being said by the few, misguided people on this board. Sure, they didn't say anything nearly as harsh, it all equates to the same. Hating a group of people simply because they are different. But somehow, hating the queers is ok for some reason. But if someone brought up a topic about hating blacks, or arabs, or asians, or women, or the diasbled it would the most horrible thing ever and people would cry for that persons lynching.

what makes the fag bashing ok? Honestly, why is it ok to hate people who just want to be able to love who they want to love without being afraid of doing it.

Who gets to choose which group of people is below the level that a group of people needs to be that to get basic civil rights and respect. Who? who gets to make that descision? Is it your almighty God? is he the one that gets to choose? your politicians? you? NO, no one gets to make that choice. No one. People should just be equal. In the words of Comedian Bill Maher "we're either drinkin from the same fountain in this country or we aren't" so which is it?

Updated On: 8/4/05 at 01:24 PM

[Elphaba]

Posted: 8/4/05 at 1:54pm

OK, I've calmed down...

then I read the story of how last night police caught the two 13yr old teenage girls who have been spraying anti-gay epitapths on peoples houses, cars, etc in Palm Desert, a pretty ritzy neighborhood here. They will be charged with hate-crimes and destruction of private property.....and I am THRILLED!

I wonder where they learned to hate? Ho did they learn it from....a parent? Possibly....a parent who "doesn't support" homosexuality.

Kids are not born with hatred....they must learn it....usually from adults.

you want it when, and rentaholic....I overstepped my bounds. I do not know either of you, and should not have mentioned either of you, and I am sorry.

especially when you think people are agreeing with someone who seems it's ok to, in affect, bash gays, but openly admits he would not bash blacks, women, Jews, etc........

What it comes down to is equal rights for all, straight, gay, black, white, Jew, christian, and you just can't pull out a group and try to deny rights to that one group........it is all or nothing for all groups. It's that simple.

Derech seems to me to be the type that if he saw kids spraypainting the N word on a black mans house he would call them out on it, but I get the feeling that if he saw the same kids at my house spraying FAG, OR DIE AIDS FAG, that he would walk away......

and that's the sad part. Nuff said on this for me.

As to RENT..........I found it to me more about relationships, and AIDS secondary....yes it also has gay issues, but I did not find them at all to be a major part of the message

It is a fabulous play, and derech, you really need to see it live on stage to get the full effect.......while the movie will be great, it is not the same as live theater.......ever

Updated On: 8/4/05 at 01:54 PM

[Rentaholic2]

Posted: 8/4/05 at 2:06pm

Thank you Elphaba, that is very humble of you. I really do respect your opinion and can really empathize with what you have to deal with...really, for my own reasons, I understand and feel for you more than you know.


And Greek, please don't get upset! I really didn't think that that was what you were trying to say which is why I added that little bit about "not trying to put words in your mouth". I really shouldn't of even gone there because you made no statement that supported what I speculated. I am sorry. :)

[YouWantitWhen????]

Posted: 8/4/05 at 2:13pm

Thanks for that Elphaba . . .

We all got a little bit heated yesterday. I am glad the girls were charged as well. Their parents should also be held to pay the costs associated with repairing the damage.

My dad, who passed away last year, always taught me that even if someone is wrong, you have to be willing to agree to disagree. Otherwise, things spiral out of control. That is all I was trying to do. If anything I said was hurtful or disrepectful to you, that was not my intent. But, sometimes the best intentions . . .

This has been an interesting, pretty open discussion, and though it has at times given me a headache, I am not sorry I piped in, because if nothing else, it made me re-examine some of my own opinions and beliefs.

Anyways, back to Rent, and the fact that I pray someone posts the concert footage from Bryant Park, because I hear that Take me or leave me was fabulous.

Have a great day everyone.

[Rentaholic2]

Posted: 8/4/05 at 2:23pm

I guess no one here now was part of the off-topic board's "Anything Controversial" thread....after a point, it very much resembled this one, but much more cutthroat, long-winded, and two-sided...it went on for days. I much prefer this one.

[Peter]

Posted: 8/4/05 at 3:14pm

What I learned a long time ago is that bigotry and homophobia is the result of one thing and one thing only..IGNORANCE. If people opened their minds to getting to know gay people, and the contributions that gays have made to society, they really wouldn't be so afraid. And if they opened their minds to all the contradictions in the Bible that somehow are ok, but being gay is somehow not ok, then perhaps they wouldnt be using the Bible as a weapon against gay people to support their intolerance. There are countless religious families in this country sending their religious sons off to war to kill, but from what I remember in the Bible, murdering someone isnt exactly sanctioned. From what I recall, the Pope didnt sanction this war either. But somehow thats ok. Adultury is wrong too but I have yet to see organized groups protesting adulterers.

Everyone has a right to their opinions. But when that opinion is rooted in ignorance, thats where the bigotry comes into play, and we have a right to disagree. However, I am also surprised at gay people. Why haven't we become better organized to fight this war we're fighting now? IMO, we are in desperate need for a central leader figure who is able to mobilize gays to action and at the same time, reach out to the fearful homophobes in this country. Normally, gays are a peaceful group, but from what has been happening in this country, Im both surprised and comforted by the fact that there haven't been riots. However, we're at the point where we now have to do something...and we do have the economic clout to accomplish quite a bit if we were better organized. I personally think an extensive pr campaign aimed at educating the fearful is in order. We could be participating more in organized, peaceful protests, boycotting nongayfriendly companies, contributing to a fund for a massive media PR campaign. We don't have to break a commandment and kill, even though we are at war ourselves. There are other ways to fight and educate..But we really have done very little...

[jrb_actor]

Posted: 8/4/05 at 4:33pm

Brilliant post, Peter. Absolutely correct.

[Pinguin]

Posted: 8/4/05 at 4:44pm

Totally, Peter. The gay and lesbian community certainly has the resources to get ORGANIZED!

[jrb_actor]

Posted: 8/4/05 at 4:51pm

The problem (and this is true of all minority communities) is that the community can not agree on matters. Just look at this thread where one gay man can praise QEFTSG for progressing the gay image and another sees it as moving gays backwards.

There are many LGBT who feel that gay marriage is one of the biggest issues to fight for, while others feel it's an unimportant issue or not at the top of the list.

It's going to take a sharply attuned person who can cover as much of the community as possible.

But, I think the good cop/bad cop model of Malcolm X and MLK would do the trick. It worked then and it could work now.

[Pinguin]

Posted: 8/4/05 at 4:59pm

It all comes down to leadership; all you need are a couple good leaders who can convince the community that particular issues are important enough to fight for.

[jrb_actor]

Posted: 8/4/05 at 5:07pm

It's not that simple Pinguin. We have leaders--but no one is sparking the revolution. Two of the best people I have ever heard speak on TV about gay issues are Elizabeth Birch and Rosie O'Donnell.

Ellen is another great image for LGBT. Mel White is a great leader with Soulforce (a gay Christian group). GLAAD and HRC and Lambda Legal and GLSTEN and many other groups are out there fighting. And making strides.

But we don't have an MLK. Act Up was the closest we got to a Malcolm X, but those days are behind us. We need someone who can take ahold of the country--whose speeches and actions are front page magic.

[Calvin]

Posted: 8/4/05 at 5:16pm

No kidding. And anyone who has stood up as a leader always gets shot down from within.

Rosie O'Donnell was called too abrasive. Elizabeth Birch and the HRC are called too spineless. Ellen's criticized for making herself into too much of a eunuch (OK, I alluded to that earlier in the thread myself, but still).

The so-called "straight acting" criticize that the flamboyents are the ones that always get the attention. The flamboyents complain that the "straight acting" are assimilating and destroying the subculture. And etc., etc., etc.

Surely, somewhere out there, a unifying presence is waiting.

[LostLeander]

Posted: 8/4/05 at 6:03pm

I'm not sure if I want to toss my hat back into this discussion, but my beliefs come from my religion, yes, but that doesn't mean I close my ears, and sing lalala as someone tells me about a differing point of view. I listen, consider, and change accordingly. I am no puppet of the church, ( and I know you didn't call me one), I have come to my own conclusions.

And I wholeheartedly disagree with whoever said that it's impossible to hate the sin, and love the sinner.
Yes, some do see a person only for their sin, but that's not a biblical principle.
How could we love ourselves? Ever love a person and not care for something they did?
I'll hate you for being a gossip, or a bad dresser.

JOKE!

So, I agree to disagree.

On Rent:
It's ok. It's a powerful story, but I don't think it's as well-written as it could be, lyrically. The music is good though. Rock and roll musicals aren't really my thing. Give me my lusch Sondheim/Guettel/LaChiusa over thinly orchestrated faux rock music.
*Ducks*
And please don't think I'm taking my beliefs into consideration when I decide whether I like a piece of theatre.
For example, I love Angels in America. I think it's brilliant. However I disagree with about 90% of it. But it's a beautiful show.
Call me a big fat hypocrite.

Posted: 8/4/05 at 6:41pm

Lostleander says:
And I wholeheartedly disagree with whoever said that it's impossible to hate the sin, and love the sinner.
Yes, some do see a person only for their sin, but that's not a biblical principle.
How could we love ourselves? Ever love a person and not care for something they did?



Here we go round and round. you cannot hate me(or as you delicately put it "not care") for what I "did" if what i "did" was just be. Be who God intended me to be.
Updated On: 8/4/05 at 06:41 PM

[jrb_actor]

Posted: 8/4/05 at 6:49pm

It comes down to whether or not you believe that being gay is a sin. I do not. After reading STRANGER AT THE GATE and WHAT THE BIBLE REALLY SAYS ABOUT HOMOSEXUALITY, I have NO qualms about God's love for me as a gay man. None.

[Abikatmom]

Posted: 8/4/05 at 6:54pm

I've read the posts on this particular threat and I say, "be who you are, and be proud". I am married with two little girls and I have completly different views about gays and blacks and so forth than my family. My husband and I teach our girls to see the person, not thier color, or sexual preference. Love the person, and all that comes with them.

As a teacher, I have to really try hard NOT to "put my beliefs" onto my students. I am not really allowed to discuss such things in my classroom. Although I try to make everyone feel as comfortable as possible while in class.

[Pinguin]

Posted: 8/4/05 at 6:59pm

I'm glad JRB; I agree that the obscure insignificant references that people use to demonize homosexuals are ridiculous. Like I said, I think Jesus would find you groovy :0)


sidenote: bet you had no idea your thread would be so popular :0) good job!

[jrb_actor]

Posted: 8/4/05 at 7:14pm

I did not think it would be THIS big.

I am amazed at the wildly unproportionate attention paid to fighting gays by religious conservatives. Assuming you believe that the references in the Bible are really about gays (and not bad translations that really pertain to rape and pedophilia), there are so few of them. There is way more said about heterosexual conduct--and as someone already stated, you don't see a movement to fight adultery--and THAT did make the Top 10 list. Homosexuality didn't make the Top 10.

And, there is much picking and choosing--as has been said repeatedly: the biggest verse used against gays is surrounded by laws that NONE of those same conservatives follow today.

It's just hogwash to me the way people rail on and on against gays in society. Such a waste of time really. It DOESN'T really affect them. Gay marriage WILL NOT affect their lives one single bit. And, as history has proven, we WILL win equal rights for all Americans regardless of sexual orientation. It is inevitable, and those fighting this are really holding on desperately to the very end. And then when it does happen--everyone will wonder why all the fuss--just like with the Civil Rights movement.

History repeats itself over and over and over...

[gymman]

Posted: 8/4/05 at 7:26pm

Remember that "conservatives" supported England and King George in the American Revolution; "conservatives" used the Bible to promulgate slavery, and were rabidly anti-abolishonist. It is liberalism that has made America what it is, and we will all be equal under the law.

I think it is tragic that there are people forced to undergo "reparative therapy" to become "straight"; ask yourself: can a heterosexual be made "gay"? The damage to the psyche is irreperable. We cannot change that which is us, and why should we?

[Derech2]

Posted: 8/4/05 at 9:32pm

jrb_actor, would you reccomend Stranger at the Gate? I found the latter book you mentioned to be very illuminating when I read it, but is Stranger similar?

[jrb_actor]

Posted: 8/4/05 at 9:47pm

Stranger at the Gate is the autobiography of Mel White. Not only is it a beautiful story about his journey, but an insight into certain political issues regarding how homosexuality is used to create fear (He was ghostwriter for Pat Robertson and others before he came out). His ex-wife wrote the forward.

I actually have the audiobook--which is wonderful. He ex-wife introduces and he tells his story.

It really is must read.

I'm sure DBillyP can recommend other great books.

[Greekmusicalfan]

Posted: 8/5/05 at 4:18am

I just love it when we all get steamed up, say what we believe, maybe fight a little, but then we can go back and be civilised again !!! That's why this board is the best !
And Rentaholic, I am happy you saw my point of view. No need to apologise, it was all a misunderstanding ! I could never hold a grudge to a fellow RENThead !

[Wanna Be A Foster]

Posted: 8/5/05 at 6:31am

Phew, I leave for a day and I get a whole new page and a half! Wowzers. Well, just thought I'd throw in there that Designing Women has a DVD out of the 5 best (most controversial) episodes, so you should pick it up if you're a fan! It's like 10 bucks on Amazon. I got Delta to autograph mine for me after Steel Magnolias! :)

Updated On: 8/5/05 at 06:31 AM