The great irony: homophobic conservatives who love RENT- Page 8

[YouWantitWhen????]

Posted: 8/4/05 at 1:56am

Elphaba -

You know what, you are so very wrong about me that it is not even funny. It must be nice to view everything so absolutely. Not everyone is going to agree with every word I or you say. Just because I refuse to attack a degrade someone who disagrees with me, suddenly I am a "hater." Explain my prejudice please . . . that I do not agree with you 100% - that I am not sure that discrmination against gays is identical to discrimination against blacks and admit it? That I do not think the state should be mandating what religious organizations do, just as religious organizations should not mandate what the state does (it is called the separation of Church and State . . . ) That I think gays should have the right to adopt? That marriage in state ceremonies should be a right? That I believe people are born gay and that it is not choice but a natural way of being? That I believe people have the right to disagree with me and not be demonized? That my money to AIDs Project LA is somehow sent via ulterior motive?


Give me a friggin break. You almost make me wish I was the "coat-tailer" you imply because then I would not have felt like I wasted my time.

Updated On: 8/4/05 at 01:56 AM

[jrb_actor]

Posted: 8/4/05 at 2:36am

Ok. It's definitely a good time to stop and breathe--all of us.

I want to step out of the argument and make a few comments:

This debating of people's beliefs is indeed wrong to do. I should never have let it get this far. The fact is all of us have the right to believe the way we do. We CAN argue as we have been about each other's beliefs, but as we can all see--it just does no good and it only serves to upset people.

I can't argue someone's beliefs--that is every American's right.

I CAN argue about my civil rights! lol And that IS an argument, I will win EVERYtime.

But we can not win an argument over beliefs.

I don't regret this thread as I think a lot of important dialogue has taken place, but it is my hope that we steer out of this negative zone and back to something constructive.

The fact is (and I am attempting to say this benignly) it is currently "ok" to debate beliefs about gays because we are in the throws of that civil rights movement. It is no longer "ok" to debate race or religion or gender as we have indeed moved to the point where those are opinions one keeps to themself if in the difference.

So, I return this thread back to the beginning: why do you like RENT Derech, Rentaholic, etc.? In a sincere fashion, how do you separate your beliefs from your love of the show?

[Derech2]

Posted: 8/4/05 at 2:42am

jrb_actor, I've never seen the show. My love lies in its music. I have no idea how the show ends and I'm trying not to read anything until I see the movie in November.

[jrb_actor]

Posted: 8/4/05 at 2:44am

well, honey--it's GAY GAY GAY--be warned!

[Derech2]

Posted: 8/4/05 at 2:48am

I'm aware of that much. Thanks for the warning though.

[YouWantitWhen????]

Posted: 8/4/05 at 3:05am

Love the show. Love the music. Love the message that "the opposite of war isn't peace, it's creation." Cannot wait for the movie to come out.

Thanks for bringing us back from the abyss . . .

[Greekmusicalfan]

Posted: 8/4/05 at 3:25am

Just wanted to add my point of view on the whole subject !
What strikes me as odd and perhaps dissapointing, is that Derech comes and expresses his/her views of "not supporting homosexuality" on a THEATER board !!! Theater is an art that opens up people's minds, broadens their horizons and gives them food for thought. It is very well known that, Theater, from the ancient times until today would never be where it is, if it wasn't for the mind, intelligence, love and effort of homosexuals who write, act, compose, direct, stage and work on the results that millions of theater lovers enjoy ! So, Derech's statement spits in the eye of many people who worked really hard to make Derech love and enjoy his passion! Personally, I am not dissapointed by Derech's view, as a gay man. He has every right to his opinion, even if I don't agree with that. But as a THEATER fan, I am dissapointed that the whole point of theater itself, which is tolerance, respect and open mind, was completely wasted on him ! Peace

[Pinguin]

Posted: 8/4/05 at 3:40am

Nicely put Greek :0)

[toodramatic]

Posted: 8/4/05 at 3:49am

It's interesting that when I leave the theatre world everyone assumes its all gay and immediatly begins to stereotype...this thread is a great reminder that we all come from different backrounds and have different views the only thing we are bound by is our love of theatre. If there is one thing I have learned from reading this thread it is that I will not be so quick to generalize people (who knows maybe there's a gay NASCAR driver out there, they cant all be hicks). I think there is one thing we must all agree on, whether we agree with homosexuality or not it is that we should not judge the actions of others...

"Let he among us without sin be the first to condemn..."

I've always thought that to be the most profound line in RENT.

[Pinguin]

Posted: 8/4/05 at 3:59am

Yes toodramatic, an oldie but goodie. Gotta love that Jesus fella :0)

[jrb_actor]

Posted: 8/4/05 at 4:00am

(who was smart enough never to discuss homosexuality)

[Pinguin]

Posted: 8/4/05 at 4:03am

Heck, if the guy can hang with a floozy, I'm sure he wouldn't mind hangin' with a gay apostle or something :0)

::hides from her own controversial thoughts::

[Greekmusicalfan]

Posted: 8/4/05 at 7:10am

I NEVER said that Theater is composed only of gay people ! Of course there are millions of straight people who have contributed a lot to it over the years and still do ! But, it is a fact that it is a place where the gay presence is very big and very important, because it is a FREE art form where gay and straight people can express their talent and artistic views ! Now that I think of it, theater and fashion, are probably the least homophobic working environments existing in the modern world ! And that is why I find odd the "I don't support homosexuality" comment from a THEATER lover !!!

[YouWantitWhen????]

Posted: 8/4/05 at 10:04am

At the risk of getting pelted again GreekMusicalfan . . . and with the disclaimer that this is a very broad generalization . . .

We Americans (especially we Americans) are a very odd lot, with abilities to separate and categorize without thinking of the consequences. How else could someone wear Nike's - knowing of the working conditons of some of their factories? How else can you explain the vast majority of Americans still believing that Iraq was involved in 9/11 - how else can you explain the army of cars larger than small European countries, but no real plan to pursue alternate energies? How else can you explain Wal-Mart - getting the cheapest price no matter what the consequences. How else can you explain George Bush . . . who can say with a straight face, that the reason for 9/11 was because "they hate freedom" without looking at the political and economic policies that generated the hate.

We, all of us, have the strange ability to separate the the source issue from the results derived. Hence, folks who to love theater, the results, without looking at how it is made and who makes it. Many people's entitlement mentality prevents us from really examining core issues, because to do so would require us to look at the consequences of our choices, and really examine ourselves. It is just easier to live your life without examining the underbelly or the root source of how you live it.

If many people took the time to do this, a few heads might explode.

Now remember all, play nice, I am talking in genearlities here, and not directing my comments at any one in particular, and, these are just opinions and thoughts, not facts . . .

But, back to Rent, I am on the West Coast and am loving the fact that my Tivo will let me watch it multiple times.

[Rentaholic2]

Posted: 8/4/05 at 11:00am

"And then there are the "rentaholics" and the "youwantits" who ride the coat-tails of the haters, never quite having the guts to admit their own prejudices......"

And then there are the Elphabas who are determined to let everyone know that the entire world is out to get them and they are a victim to everyone, even people who have caused no offense. I cannot count how many times you have said 'haters' and 'bigots' in this thread. I really am sorry that you feel this way or that anyone has ever made you feel hated. It is one of, if not the, worst feelings in the world. But please stop calling us HATERS just because we believe differently than you...I do not hate you or anyone else on this board. As jrb_actor was saying, we all believe different things and will not likely change our views...but we CAN discuss, enlighten, and ask in the proper environment. I may be wrong, but I don't think any of us have resorted to calling you such a bitter, terrible name like 'haters'--you do not want to be labeled or stereotyped and neither do we. I would think that the other people on your side of this argument would not want me to label in a certain way because YOU have called me a hater. So please, do not use that word again on this thread...or atleast not in reference to members of this community who are in no way out to harm, offend, or degrade you.

And Greek, you are right about theatre having a huge homosexual community and involvement...if someone has said on this thread that they would like an actor/director/composer/choreography LESS because they were gay, then I would like to separate myself from that view, because I do not feel that way at all. If you are implying that someone who does not agree with homosexuality shouldn't be in a theatre community, then I think you have just offended me, gay people, and the theatre community in general. (and I'm not trying to put words in your mouth or anything--just speculating).


And to answer your question, jrb_actor, I refer back to my first post:

"In my opinion, Rent is as much about homosexuality as each individual makes it.
To one person, this factor of Rent is one of its greatest and most important factors. To someone else, however, the fact that there is homosexuality in Rent is a non-issue...whether they approve or not, the message is one of Love and Life and that is what is important. One of the things that I like about Rent is that the characters don't really make a big deal about the homosexuallity...it just is, and they hardly even treat it as an issue because it is a part of their life (in MY opinion, atleast). Yes, there are plenty of moments, but none of the characters are ridiculed because of it and no one really even raises an eyebrow...in fact, I dare say that the homosexual relationships in Rent could just as well be hetero and it wouldn't change the message (like La Boheme). Collins is beat, but it doesn't allude to the cause being his homosexuality...he was just mugged. And yeah there is all the stuff in La Vie Boheme.

It's like what someone on Broadway, The American Musical said about the Lion King. To a white person, it has nothing to do with race...to a black person, it has everything to do with race.

That's my opinion, take it or leave it :
Atleast that's my best explanation as to how a conservative person could love Rent."

[Rentaholic2]

Posted: 8/4/05 at 11:20am

"well, honey--it's GAY GAY GAY--be warned! "

That made me laugh, jrb.

Posted: 8/4/05 at 11:27am

me too. I saw it last night before I went to bed. Those were my last words...Gay, Gay, Gay! You are a card and you have to be dealt with!

Posted: 8/4/05 at 11:57am

youwantitwhen says her doanating to AIDS Project LA is germaine to her argument...well I'm not debating that. I think it shows you are a person of compassion. It just reminded me of a cute story line on Designing Women. Suzanne and Mary Jo go to see the publisher of a porn magazine who has Julia in Jail for a civil rights violation. Well, the publisher is a woman and she defends herself by saying she is a contributor to NOW. Suzanne in her infinite wisdom and great powers of debate responds with "...well, I give to the humane society but that doesn't make me a dog!"

No fights please. Just a cute story from one of my favorite shows, EVER! Let's start a petition to get the first season on DVD.
Updated On: 8/4/05 at 11:57 AM

[katygrace84]

Posted: 8/4/05 at 12:02pm

I think I remember that episode. I love that show!

[jrb_actor]

Posted: 8/4/05 at 12:05pm

While on this threadjack, the best moment ever on that show:

"And THAT'S the night the lights went out in Georgia!!"

Posted: 8/4/05 at 12:13pm

yes. sorry jrb....and now we return you to our regularly scheduled programming.

We want to feel safe. That is something every human being shares. I feel safe on this board. Not just because of the anonymity but because I know that, as a whole, the theatre community accepts me for who I am. When I see posts that show that I'm not safe from being judged and rejected(I'm sorry, you can't love the sinner and hate the sin)than it hurts. It truly hurts. It's a powerful hurt. It goes beyond name calling. It goes to my very essence.
Updated On: 8/4/05 at 12:13 PM

[Rentaholic2]

Posted: 8/4/05 at 12:18pm

I've never watched Designing Women but now I'm intrigued by your cute and funny story...

And I like your Quote Attachment Chita (I don't know the real name of it :) )

[doodlenyc]

Posted: 8/4/05 at 12:21pm

Well, I jumped off this thread because I was getting upset and had to leave...
Glad we got back to the topic...Designing Women

Jrb, Chita and Elph...thanks for speaking so passionately and eloquently..sorry I wasnt here to add my feelings.

My point was a few pages ago, and it was speaking to the patronizing attitude of those who "tolerate" GLBT people. Y'all have taken this down other roads, but it is that attitude that burns me most. I'd rather you hated me...at least I know where I stand, then.

[chuckufarley007]

Posted: 8/4/05 at 12:29pm

Atten: Homophobes. Don't go see APATHY: The Gen X Musical, unless you'd like to see one of your own come forward (never straight) out of the cupboard!!
:)
clickity, clickity!

[YouWantitWhen????]

Posted: 8/4/05 at 12:29pm

I myself am not actually sure whether donating money is germaine to the argument . . . I was just pointing out that someone who "hates" would probably spend their money elsewhere. The organizations I support are those that speak and teach not only tolerance, but acceptance. But it is true, donating money is basically easy. Deeds are much more difficult to follow-through on.

I must admit, I was just so taken aback at being accused of being a hater when I agre with about 98% of someone's views. So, I may have gone a little over the top. I have spent my life trying to understand, accept and embrace people's differences, recognizing that just because it is different does not make it wrong. And, just because I think something is right, does not in fact make it so. And lord knows, I make plenty of mistakes. So, Elphaba really pushed a button when I got lumped into a group of people that I personally would not want to be a part of. I will defend to the end their right to a different belief, but that does not mean I hold the same belief.

That being said, it is easy for me to say this, because I am on the sidelines. It is not my life being attacked, not who I am that is being questioned or undermined. I do not have people trying to stop me from spending the rest of my life with the person I love or adopting a child. I cannot imagine how it must feel to have folks basically deny the validity of who you are. I probably would be pretty angry as well.

Anyways, back to Rent, Designing Woman, and waiting to get back home to watch my Tivo tonight of the NBC performances.

And JRB - you made me laugh - thanks.

Updated On: 8/4/05 at 12:29 PM