The moral ambiguity of Dear Evan Hansen- Page 2

[JudyDenmark]

Posted: 6/2/17 at 12:36pm

leighmiserables said: "Using arguments such as "he helped the Murphys heal" or "he honored Connor's memory" are moot points, because never was helping other people Evan's intention."

Per Ben Platt's interview on Colbert, he said (while setting up his performance of "For Forever" ), "Evan has been invited over to dinner by this kid's family, and they have been led to believe that he was the friend of their son, and his plan when he goes into dinner is to sort of diffuse that, or make sure that the situation ends right there, however the mother of this kid is so in need of something to hold onto, some sort of memory, that Evan starts to sort of fabricate this story about a day that they had, a friendship that never existed, and in doing so really physically [visibly?] helps this mother to heal, and also finds that he gets to heal himself and finds sort of an answer to his loneliness that he didn't expect to find." (I just pulled that from YouTube, so it's word for word.)

There's no question that what Evan did is "wrong" in a binary sense - you don't make up giant lies about a dead kid, we all know that - but I don't think it's accurate to say that it happened for sociopathic, selfish reasons at all - he felt caught in this moment of witnessing a mother's profound grief, and as someone with no social skills, had no clue how to handle that. And as the lie spiraled, he felt less and less in control, and we see that devolution throughout the show, climaxing with "Words Fail" when his regret and sorrow about the whole thing come bursting out of him. 

His mother unconditionally forgiving him at the end after doing something so awful ("your mom isn't going anywhere, your mom is staying right here" ) is the moment that smacked me in the heart the most, because as an audience member we know what he did is essentially unforgivable, and he's in the lowest of low places, but his mom offers a tiny glimmer of hope and support. To me, that's one of the biggest takeaways of the show. Most of us have someone in our life who would love us fiercely no matter what, and that's a comforting thought... especially for those of us who struggle with anxiety or deal with any form of mental illness.

Updated On: 6/2/17 at 12:36 PM

[dramamama611]

Posted: 6/2/17 at 12:52pm

Art holds up a mirror.....it doesn't have to correct or moralize it.  YES, what he does is wrong, there is no doubt of that, but YES, in reality, not everyone "pays" for what they've done in the way that we personally might find satisfying.

[Melanie73]

Posted: 6/2/17 at 12:54pm

To me, there's no real question as to whether or not Evan's actions are wrong.  However, I think the main message that most people find healing, etc. is the fact that, although there were a lot of negative consequences to his actions and decisions, there is still hope for everyone's future.  The show doesn't really have a "happy" ending: Evan doesn't have money for college, hasn't been in contact with any of the Murphy's in over a year, probably still doesn't have any friends, and we're not completely sure how his relationship with his mother is now.

The thing that I think a lot of people -- especially those who find that they particularly relate to Evan -- take away from the experience is that a lot of people do a lot of bad things and make a lot of big mistakes in life, but there's always hope to turn it around later.  A lot of people who struggle with mental health disorders such as anxiety and depression can have a hard time forgiving themselves, and they often go to a worst-case-scenario way of thinking.  I understand that it would be great if anxiety and depression sufferers had a very positive character to look up to, but at the same time, I think they also need to see a character they can relate to who also isn't perfect.  To see that he's done bad things and made terrible choices -- and then come out from all of it a year later with at least with a little bit of hope -- is the part that I think a lot of people find most healing.  One phrase that some people with mental health disorders find hard to internalize and believe is, "It will get better."  To see a character get himself into a huge mess, but be able to survive it, gives them a good example that might bring some hope into their minds and lives.  The mindset that his actions should plague him and be punished for the rest of his life is the one that these people tend to apply to themselves a bit too much sometimes, so the reason why I think a lot of them feel so strongly about DEH is that it may be the first thing in a lot of people's lives that make them think, "Hey, maybe things WILL be better for me one day."

[Taryn]

Posted: 6/2/17 at 12:54pm

CallMeAl2 said: "Every one of these things are true. How do you fit that in to a binary right/wrong? You can't. It is both. That's the moral ambiguity. It's not up to the audience to choose whether Evan's actions are good or bad."

Who else is it up to? Of course it's up to the audience to decide how they feel about the morality of a story being presented to them.

[cam5y]

Posted: 6/2/17 at 1:04pm

KJisgroovy said: ""Pretending that everyone "will be found" delegitimises that pain."

No it doesn't. It says that pain is temporary. And it is temporary. We're not talking about people who have terminal illnesses, we're generally talking about folks who don't have a complete perspective. Of course their pain is legitimate, it just doesn't justify suicide. 

Evan's lies provide the families ability to find each other and themselves. It's true they don't learn anything about Colin or his pain... they still learn a lot that helps them. It doesn't let Evan off the hook but there's real benefit to the perspective his lies bring. "

The pain is likely to be temporary, but for some people it's not. I much prefer something like "You'll Never Walk Alone" from Carousel, which says that you aren't alone, but doesn't promise that "someone will come running/and I know he'll take you home" or "when you're broken on the ground/you will be found." I have my own issues with "It gets better," but at the very least that was not based on a lie. 

And I strongly, strongly disagree that Evan's lies provided anything that helped the Murphys in any way. At the end of the day, their son is still dead, they know much less than they thought they did about why that is the case, and they've expended significant emotional energy on someone who was not in fact their son's (or their daughter's) friend. Evan's lies don't provide the Murphys with any additional perspective at all, and it makes no sense for Zoe to say that they helped.

And Liza's Headband? Invest in a dictionary, and perhaps read a book or newspaper set outside the US some time. If I have to live with the New York Times calling it the "National Theater," you have to live with my British spelling.

[JudyDenmark]

Posted: 6/2/17 at 1:04pm

Melanie73 said: "The mindset that his actions should plague him and be punished for the rest of his life is the one that these people tend to apply to themselves a bit too much sometimes,"

100x this. All-or-nothing/worst-case-scenario thinking is problematic, especially when mental illness is added to the equation. That sense of "I'll never get out of this/forgive myself" despair is what so often leads to suicide. The fact that Evan did something so awful, and knows he did something so awful and will have to live with it... but doesn't have to spend literally the rest of his life being punished for it and can move on and still be a person who experiences life and find happiness - that's the message of this story. It gets better.

[stage-n-screen]

Posted: 6/2/17 at 1:25pm

leighmiserables said: "Morality has to be objective – at least within a single society – in order for it to mean anything."

Woody Allen covered this perfectly in "Love and Death".

Sonya: Immorality is subjective.

Boris: Yes, but subjectivity is objective.

Sonya: Not in a rational scheme of perception.

Boris: Perception is irrational.  It implies imminence.

Sonya:  But judgment of any system of phenomena exists in any rational, metaphysical or epistemological contradiction to an abstracted empirical concept such as being, or to be, or to occur, in the thing itself or of the thing itself.

Boris: Yeah, I've said that many times.

And, so I'm not completely off topic here, I couldn't say it better than CallMeAl2. I, for one, love DEH and find the moral ambiguity in Evan and the book richly dramatic and rewarding. And I admit to struggling with the criticism of "You Will be Found" - it's not intended as a bromide - it's a spontaneous emotional outburst of a troubled and lonely figure who, finding himself fumbling badly as the center of attention, expresses the deepest yearnings he, until this point in his life, has been unable to or afraid to express.   

 

[Gensho]

Posted: 6/2/17 at 1:29pm

"That, combined with the fact that the entire audience was roaring with laughter every single time Evan did anything even slightly awkward or anxious, made me leave the theater legitimately wanting to kill myself."

I spent way more time crying during DEH than laughing. Also, the last time I saw the show I went with two psychiatrist. They did not feel that Evan was anywhere near a sociopath. He's a teenager. A young adult still is not an adult. They aren't necessarily aware of the repercussions of their actions. They're still learning. 

Also; Evan had nothing to do with the death of Connor Murphy. The grief that the Murphy's are dealing with is how they couldn't stop their son from killing himsels after he already threatened to do this. Not because of Evan. Words Fail is a profound admission of guilt. To say that the show condones his behavior is ludicrous. No one really knows how the Murphy's processes Evan's admission other than that they didn't come after him and that going to the newly restored orchard, thanks to Evan's lies, was healing for them. Something positive that came from something negative. 

The fact that Ben receives hundreds of letters on a daily basis about how this show has helped them speaks volumes more than this thread. Although, this is one of the better threads on this board. Clearly this show is doing what it intended to do. 

[LYLS3637]

Posted: 6/2/17 at 1:35pm

Gensho said: "Evan had nothing to do with the death of Connor Murphy. The grief that the Murphy's are dealing with is how they couldn't stop their son from killing himsels after he already threatened to do this. Not because of Evan. Words Fail is a profound admission of guilt. To say that the show condones his behavior is ludicrous. No one really knows how the Murphy's processes Evan's admission other than that they didn't come after him and that going to the newly restored orchard, thanks to Evan's lies, was healing for them. Something positive that came from something negative. "

We do know that Evan was no longer in contact with the Murphy's. His actions caused him to lose the father he never had and the mother "who was just there because mom was all she had to be." His actions had consequences and he was paying for them at the end of the show. 

Were people really hoping it ended with him imprisoned? 

Updated On: 6/2/17 at 01:35 PM

[cam5y]

Posted: 6/2/17 at 1:47pm

Gensho said, "No one really knows how the Murphy's processes Evan's admission other than that they didn't come after him and that going to the newly restored orchard, thanks to Evan's lies, was healing for them. Something positive that came from something negative. "

It's not just about the orchard. Zoe says the whole ordeal has brought her family closer together, because "everyone needed it for something." I find that unearned.

[RaisedOnMusicals]

Posted: 6/2/17 at 1:51pm

All I want to say is that while I personally agree with the opinions of some who have posted on this thread and disagree with others, I am incredibly impressed, stunned really, at the intelligence (oft times brilliance) of much of what I've read here.  

[LYLS3637]

Posted: 6/2/17 at 1:58pm

cam5y said: "Gensho said, "No one really knows how the Murphy's processes Evan's admission other than that they didn't come after him and that going to the newly restored orchard, thanks to Evan's lies, was healing for them. Something positive that came from something negative. "

It's not just about the orchard. Zoe says the whole ordeal has brought her family closer together, because "everyone needed it for something." I find that unearned."

Why unearned? Is it so outside the realm of possibility that through grief and hurt, this family could have started communicating better while taking more time to spend with each other. From personal experience, grief can sometimes have the power to bring people closer together.

[cam5y]

Posted: 6/2/17 at 2:02pm

Obviously grief can bring people together. But it makes no sense for Evan's lies to do so. They were grieving a false Connor, who never existed. Now they have to go back and do the work of grieving the real Connor.

[LYLS3637]

Posted: 6/2/17 at 2:14pm

cam5y said: "Obviously grief can bring people together. But it makes no sense for Evan's lies to do so. They were grieving a false Connor, who never existed. Now they have to go back and do the work of grieving the real Connor.

 

Why couldn't they grieve both? The son they had and they one they didn't but maybe wish they did. Chances are, even without Evan, they would have had to comes to terms with reconciling those two conflicting Connors. Sounds like it fits the "everyone needed it for something" line. 

 

[KJisgroovy]

Posted: 6/2/17 at 2:14pm

""someone will come running/and I know he'll take you home" or "when you're broken on the ground/you will be found." I have my own issues with "It gets better," but at the very least that was not based on a lie. "

But it's Evan saying that, not the show. He's saying what he thinks people want to hear in that moment. What he wants to hear. We as an audience know that, actually, no one actually did "come running when he was broken on the ground." Evan was alone. I think it's a misreading to suggest the show is saying "don't worry, someone will save you." 

[JudyDenmark]

Posted: 6/2/17 at 2:19pm

cam5y said: "Obviously grief can bring people together. But it makes no sense for Evan's lies to do so."

According to who? Life is funny that way - positives come from negatives all the time. If this was a real-life family and a real-life situation, I can see a family bonding over the ordeal they've gone through (the ordeal of losing Connor and what Evan did). And the whole situation absolutely opened up communication that wasn't there before. (As we see in "Anybody Have a Map." )

I think what the Murphys go through and what Evan goes through are, while intertwined, two different stories with two different morals. We can empathize with Evan as the hero of his own story while still seeing him as the "villain" in a lot of ways in the Murphys' story. Both stories resolve in their own way. 

[cam5y]

Posted: 6/2/17 at 2:21pm

LYLS3637 said: "cam5y said: "Obviously grief can bring people together. But it makes no sense for Evan's lies to do so. They were grieving a false Connor, who never existed. Now they have to go back and do the work of grieving the real Connor.

Why couldn't they grieve both? The son they had and they one they didn't but maybe wish they did. Chances are, even without Evan, they would have had to comes to terms with reconciling those two conflicting Connors. Sounds like it fits the "everyone needed it for something" line. "

Without Evan, there would not have been two conflicting Connors. Evan invented the one they maybe wish they had. If he hadn't done so, they would have grieved for the child they actually lost, rather than wasting emotional energy and time on a fantasy. How on earth is that helpful to parents who have just lost their son?

 

[cam5y]

Posted: 6/2/17 at 2:22pm

KJisgroovy said: """someone will come running/and I know he'll take you home" or "when you're broken on the ground/you will be found." I have my own issues with "It gets better," but at the very least that was not based on a lie. "

But it's Evan saying that, not the show. He's saying what he thinks people want to hear in that moment. What he wants to hear. We as an audience know that, actually, no one actually did "come running when he was broken on the ground." Evan was alone. I think it's a misreading to suggest the show is saying "don't worry, someone will save you." "

I think that by making the #youwillbefound hashtag the centrepiece of the show's marketing, that is precisely what the show is saying.

[cam5y]

Posted: 6/2/17 at 2:28pm

JudyDenmark said: "cam5y said: "Obviously grief can bring people together. But it makes no sense for Evan's lies to do so."

According to who? Life is funny that way - positives come from negatives all the time. If this was a real-life family and a real-life situation, I can see a family bonding over the ordeal they've gone through (the ordeal of losing Connor and what Evan did). And the whole situation absolutely opened up communication that wasn't there before. (As we see in "Anybody Have a Map." )

I think what the Murphys go through and what Evan goes through are, while intertwined, two different stories with two different morals. We can empathize with Evan as the hero of his own story while still seeing him as the "villain" in a lot of ways in the Murphys' story. Both stories resolve in their own way. "

I agree with your second paragraph completely, but not the first. I think it is very unlikely that Evan's lies would make the family bond. As a parent, it would be incredibly painful to find out that not only did your son commit suicide, but even the small positive things that you had heard about his last months were untrue. You now have to go back, reconstruct his last days and weeks in the knowledge that he was not helped, that he was friendless and alone.

[KJisgroovy]

Posted: 6/2/17 at 2:32pm

"I think that by making the #youwillbefound hashtag the centrepiece of the show's marketing, that is precisely what the show is saying."

Um. No. It's advertising used to sell a product. It's separate from the show, likely created by an entirely different team of artists. One of my favorite advertising slogans is from the original run of Phantasm. "If this one doesn't scare you, you're already dead!" I don't think anyone leaving a showing of Phantasm said, "Well I guess I must be dead now." Advertising uses hyperbole, catchphrases... all sorts of techniques. You know all that, I'm sure. I'm not sure why you think Dear Evan Hansen should be held to some bizarre higher standard.

[cam5y]

Posted: 6/2/17 at 2:49pm

KJisgroovy said: ""I think that by making the #youwillbefound hashtag the centrepiece of the show's marketing, that is precisely what the show is saying."

Um. No. It's advertising used to sell a product. It's separate from the show, likely created by an entirely different team of artists. One of my favorite advertising slogans is from the original run of Phantasm. "If this one doesn't scare you, you're already dead!" I don't think anyone leaving a showing of Phantasm said, "Well I guess I must be dead now." Advertising uses hyperbole, catchphrases... all sorts of techniques. You know all that, I'm sure. I'm not sure why you think Dear Evan Hansen should be held to some bizarre higher standard."

Well, it's not hyperbole. That phrase has a meaning, deeply ironic in the context of the show but completely taken at face value in the marketing, and in much of the audience response on social media. I don't think it's a "bizarre higher standard" to take the show to task for promoting itself using a message that the show itself undercuts. 

Updated On: 6/2/17 at 02:49 PM

[LYLS3637]

Posted: 6/2/17 at 2:49pm

cam5y said: Without Evan, there would not have been two conflicting Connors. Evan invented the one they maybe wish they had. If he hadn't done so, they would have grieved for the child they actually lost, rather than wasting emotional energy and time on a fantasy. How on earth is that helpful to parents who have just lost their son?"

That's not necessarily true. Loss of someone with whom you have a complicated relationship with adds a complex layer of grief. Chances are, without Evan, those parents would have had to come to terms with their feelings of longing for an uncomplicated son. The son Evan personified. It was something they were, most likely, already conscious of. 

I'm making the argument that it's not such a big leap that the parents could have felt that they "got something" out of the ordeal. Which is not absolution. It's not blanket forgiveness.

Updated On: 6/2/17 at 02:49 PM

[cam5y]

Posted: 6/2/17 at 3:01pm

LYLS3637 said: "cam5y said: Without Evan, there would not have been two conflicting Connors. Evan invented the one they maybe wish they had. If he hadn't done so, they would have grieved for the child they actually lost, rather than wasting emotional energy and time on a fantasy. How on earth is that helpful to parents who have just lost their son?"

That's not necessarily true. Loss of someone with whom you have a complicated relationship with adds a complex layer of grief. Chances are, without Evan, those parents would have had to come to terms with their feelings of longing for an uncomplicated son. The son Evan personified. It was something they were, most likely, already conscious of. 

I'm making the argument that it's not such a big leap that the parents could have felt that they "got something" out of the ordeal. Which is not absolution. It's not blanket forgiveness."

The parents would have had to come to terms with their feelings of longing for an uncomplicated son in any event. And by that uncomplicated son I mean an idealised version of Connor - I don't think even Evan's greatest defenders would call him "uncomplicated." 

All Evan's lies did was add on an extra layer of grief. There was nothing positive about them for the Murphys. That line from Zoe is important, because it lets Evan off the hook somewhat. It says to him, and the audience, well, what you did was bad and wrong, sure, but there were some positive consequences to what you did. And I think that is an extremely dangerous message and a wrong one.

Evan takes full responsibility for what he did, and that is right. I'm not one who thinks he ought to be "punished" more than he already was. But I think it is very important for the audience, in particular, to understand that Evan's behaviour cannot be excused or explained away. He can go on and things will get better for him, and that is fine, but there were no benefits to what he did.

Updated On: 6/2/17 at 03:01 PM

[JudyDenmark]

Posted: 6/2/17 at 3:09pm

cam5y said: "All Evan's lies did was add on an extra layer of grief. There was nothing positive about them for the Murphys."

Based on interviews and after-show talkbacks, I think the creators and cast would disagree with you on that. They're very clear that the Murphys did get something positive from this ordeal. Again, it's not black and white. There's no "You Can't Stop the Beat" happy ending. But that doesn't meant that there can't be something positive. It's layered.

 

[LYLS3637]

Posted: 6/2/17 at 3:12pm

cam5y said: "There was nothing positive about them for the Murphys."

That's way too definitive for an ending swimming in ambiguity-- particularly surrounding the two characters in question who do not get a final say.