The moral ambiguity of Dear Evan Hansen- Page 3

[cam5y]

Posted: 6/2/17 at 3:13pm

JudyDenmark said: "cam5y said: "All Evan's lies did was add on an extra layer of grief. There was nothing positive about them for the Murphys."

Based on interviews and after-show talkbacks, I think the creators and cast would disagree with you on that. They're very clear that the Murphys did get something positive from this ordeal. Again, it's not black and white. There's no "You Can't Stop the Beat" happy ending. But that doesn't meant that there can't be something positive. It's layered."

Oh, I understand that they disagree. But I find it extremely difficult to conceive of a psychologically probable situation in which parents who have lost a son to suicide derive any benefit from lies about his last weeks and months. That's what I find unearned. Other people clearly differ. 

[Oak2]

Posted: 6/2/17 at 3:34pm

Gensho said: ""That, combined with the fact that the entire audience was roaring with laughter every single time Evan did anything even slightly awkward or anxious, made me leave the theater legitimately wanting to kill myself."

I spent way more time crying during DEH than laughing. Also, the last time I saw the show I went with two psychiatrist. They did not feel that Evan was anywhere near a sociopath. He's a teenager. A young adult still is not an adult. They aren't necessarily aware of the repercussions of their actions. They're still learning. 

Also; Evan had nothing to do with the death of Connor Murphy. The grief that the Murphy's are dealing with is how they couldn't stop their son from killing himsels after he already threatened to do this. Not because of Evan. Words Fail is a profound admission of guilt. To say that the show condones his behavior is ludicrous. No one really knows how the Murphy's processes Evan's admission other than that they didn't come after him and that going to the newly restored orchard, thanks to Evan's lies, was healing for them. Something positive that came from something negative. 

The fact that Ben receives hundreds of letters on a daily basis about how this show has helped them speaks volumes more than this thread. Although, this is one of the better threads on this board. Clearly this show is doing what it intended to do. 

 

"

Since you're saying this as a direct reply to my statement, I should clarify that I did not imply or mean to imply that I thought Evan had anything to do with Connor's suicide, or that the show condones the behavior. But what it did do to me was show that people will make good use of a suicide for the benefit of others and themselves. And while you found yourself crying, I still had my own experience of hearing most of the audience laughing every time Evan stammered or did anything that reminded me of myself. I am not trying to deny or invalidate the fact that the show has helped many and has been seen as a benefit. I was merely expressing that to me personally, it did the exact opposite and made me want to kill myself, as to me the show and the reaction to it I saw has taught me that people with my problems are seen as hilarious stock comedy freaks and also that it doesn't matter if I do kill myself, since people will find a way to make good out of it anyway.

[MrsSallyAdams]

Posted: 6/3/17 at 8:01am

A brief tangent. 

I recently had a similar discussion about the musical Kinky Boots. The finale, "Raise You Up/Just Be," put a sour taste in my mouth. I'm unable to forgive the way Don, Charlie and the other factory workers treat Lola. I'd watched them threaten and belittle Lola for half the show. Their co-worker. The consultant they hired to save their jobs. Then Charlie gives a condescending apology and Don briefly sings that he "changed his mind." Now their all friends and singing an anthem to friendship and diversity. The tagline "Just Be" was featured in the shows marketing campaign but I didn't buy it.

My friend, and clearly many audiences, did buy it. They found the show silly and charming. I realized part of my reaction came from personal experiences with homophobic harassment and that I would never be able to fully enjoy this show. That's not necessarily the fault of the show or marketing team.

[GhostXmasPast]

Posted: 6/3/17 at 12:13pm

My own reflections on DEH

1.  He is introduced as a very sympathetic character - while the show itself begins with the introduction of a struggling single mother / son relationship, as well as a dysfunctional family situation with the Murphy's.

2.  Evans initial "lie" was a result of taking the path  of least resistance to avoid further pain for the Murphy's.

3.  Laughter during the show was generally in response to Jareds intersections with Evan.  Jared is established that Jared is barely above Evan in the social order of school life - a situation he deals with by being An extrovert - playing against  Evans introverted personality.

4.  As the scope and reach of Evans lies expand, several things happen.  Evans "speech" is based in his growing ability to verbalize feelings of isolation  While the public may view them as a tribute to Conner  the emotions are driven by Evans own feelings of emptiness and yearning for more in life.

5. As an audience member, sympathetic feelings towards Evan are supplemented by growing concern as to how things will resolve without utter devastation to Evan and the Murphys.

6. Evans continued actions begin to cross from sympathetic and therapudic - moving well  into self serving and manipulative.  Particularly his intersections with Zoe, Jared and Alana.  As an audience member sympathetic to Evan, I willed him not to cross each line  yet he did...

7.  Without greater reveal of plot details - given the place everyone ends up in - the ultimate resolution could play several ways - ranging from scorched earth devastation - to application of "Grace" by various parties.  Regardless of the ultimate choices made by writers, each possible outcome was driven by the plot. Given I view Evans actions as initially motivated by good intentions, before taking darker turn, I appreciated the hopeful outcome - but the events and outcomes can (and do) generate thoughtful discourse.  Which to me is one measure of a good story.

certainty reasonable minds can disagree.

i apologize for typos - I am typing on small phone while on plane - "words fail."  Hard to edit.

 

 

 

[RaisedOnMusicals]

Posted: 6/3/17 at 4:16pm

A very thorough and thoughtful analysis by XmasPast.

Even if you havent seen the show, you can follow this analysis precisely simply by listening to the cast recording. The songs alone allow you to follow Evan's path along with him. 

[bear88]

Posted: 6/4/17 at 5:01am

Although I have expressed qualms about the musical on the "Dear Evan Hansen Issues" thread, I basically agree with XMasPast and think I have been a little hard on the show.

It was one of those musicals in which the wild enthusiasm of the audience didn't quite match up with my own conflicted reaction to what I thought was a barbed, often satirical work. Yes, the creators went too far out of their way in the final scene to let Evan off a little easily so the audience could feel more comfortable, in my view. And I agree that the the #youarenotalone marketing campaign does flatten out the far more complex and interesting nuances of the show.

But that's marketing, and it doesn't - and shouldn't - take away from the achievements of Dear Evan Hansen, the musical on the Music Box Theatre stage.

I can't read the minds of the creators, and their intentions shouldn't matter anyway, but the actual show portrays Evan as sympathetic from the outset. The audience laughter is mostly in response to Jared's comic, smirking remarks. (I never felt the audience was laughing at Evan. The show wouldn't work if everyone thought he was a joke.) But despite putting the audience on Evan's side, and portraying his initial interaction with the Murphys in a very sympathetic light ("For Forever" is his desperate if misguided effort to comfort Connor's mother), the show doesn't shy away from his moral ambiguity.

The first act, and "You Are Not Alone," concludes with some unusual, and ominous sounds as a grateful Zoe is thanking Evan. I think It's the only time those sounds are heard in the show, and the musical cue, followed by the strings as the couple kisses, emphasizes that Evan had crossed a line he shouldn't have gone near. The second act largely consists of misery, as Evan desperately tries to dismiss questions about his relationship with Connor, clashes with his mother, and clings desperately to his relationship with the surviving Murphys. It all falls apart with "Words Fail."

The show can certainly be faulted for making the Murphys a little too credulous, especially Zoe, and I agree with cam5y that it's difficult to come up with a way that Evan's lie (which culminates in online and phone abuse directed at the Murphys) could have possibly have done them much good in coping with Connor's death. But if the healing takes place offstage, the show does not end with Evan getting away with much. The Murphys haven't spoken to him in a year, he doesn't have a relationship with Zoe aside from their brief conversation, and he's basically a calmer version of the guy we met at the beginning of the show.

There's some sharp writing that I don't think gets enough credit. Mike Faist plays Connor, but during most of the musical, he's a figment of Evan's imagination and often a devil on his shoulder. It's a tricky role, and there's something diabolical about how it's written - and played by the still-underrated Faist - Tony nomination notwithstanding. Ben Platt is a terrific actor, but he's given some awfully good material. And Rachel Bay Jones, in "Anybody Have a Map?" and"So Big/So Small," is given well-written, moving songs that touched me as a parent.

I do disagree with RaisedOnMusicals that the show can truly be followed by listening to the cast recording. Some songs are straightforward ["Waving Through a Window"] but others don't really make sense without the context of the story. I don't love the score as much as others do, but I do think it's effective in the musical. I don't think it is a perfect show, but there's a lot to be said for a Broadway musical that is as well-crafted, current, and relevant as this one.

Updated On: 6/4/17 at 05:01 AM

[GavestonPS]

Posted: 6/4/17 at 5:29am

RaisedOnMusicals said: "A very thorough and thoughtful analysis by XmasPast.

Even if you havent seen the show, you can follow this analysis precisely simply by listening to the cast recording. The songs alone allow you to follow Evan's path along with him. 

 

"

I agree.

To me, if there's a moral "problem" with DEH it's the degree to which it plays into the thinking of many depressed people: "If I kill myself, then everyone will be sorry and realize how badly they treated me." I.e., telling a suicide "You won't be forgotten" isn't the most helpful response.

But I doubt many people kill themselves over a Broadway show.

[SporkGoddess]

Posted: 6/4/17 at 9:34am

To add to Gaveston's point:

I haven't seen the show, but I did want to bring up one thing, as someone who works in mental health and is involved in suicide research.  Depicting suicide in even a fictional story is a VERY dicey thing because of suicide contagion.  That's why 13 Reasons Why is getting so much flack. You have to be very careful about how you depict suicide in media because it actually can lead to increased attempts.  Obviously it's rare, but it does happen. 

[RaisedOnMusicals]

Posted: 6/4/17 at 12:02pm

I do disagree with RaisedOnMusicals that the show can truly be followed by listening to the cast recording. Some songs are straightforward ["Waving Through a Window"] but others don't really make sense without the context of the story. I don't love the score as much as others do, but I do think it's effective in the musical. I don't think it is a perfect show, but there's a lot to be said for a Broadway musical that is as well-crafted, current, and relevant as this one.

What I was trying to say, perhaps inartfully, is that you can follow the point by point analysis of Xmas Past while listening to the cast recording. The analysis provides an excellent context, maybe not perfect, for following the music. 

[froote]

Posted: 6/6/17 at 12:07pm

Looks like journalists are finally catching on:

http://www.slate.com/articles/arts/theater/2017/06/the_dissembling_liar_at_the_center_of_broadway_hit_dear_evan_hansen.html

[RaisedOnMusicals]

Posted: 6/6/17 at 12:24pm

froote said: "Looks like journalists are finally catching on:

http://www.slate.com/articles/arts/theater/2017/06/the_dissembling_liar_at_the_center_of_broadway_hit_dear_evan_hansen.html

Peter Marks responds:

Jason Zinoman, questioning the morality of DEAR EVAN HANSEN. Well argued, and I couldn't disagree more.

[LYLS3637]

Posted: 6/6/17 at 12:24pm

froote said: "Looks like journalists are finally catching on:

http://www.slate.com/articles/arts/theater/2017/06/the_dissembling_liar_at_the_center_of_broadway_hit_dear_evan_hansen.html

 

Zinoman is not a journalist. He's a theatre critic. Who is basically saying the same thing The New Yorker and a handful of other critics said when the show opened, so it doesn't look like anyone is "finally catching on"

 

[froote]

Posted: 6/6/17 at 12:29pm

Critics are journalists and I hadn't read any of those handful or seen them being shared but I'm glad they're out there nevertheless.

[JudyDenmark]

Posted: 6/6/17 at 12:46pm

GavestonPS said: "To me, if there's a moral "problem" with DEH it's the degree to which it plays into the thinking of many depressed people: "If I kill myself, then everyone will be sorry and realize how badly they treated me." I.e., telling a suicide "You won't be forgotten" isn't the most helpful response."

To me, the point of that song is that Evan is finally expressing (and self-acknowledging) what he wishes for himself. When he 'fell' out of the tree and broke his arm, all he wanted for someone to be there and to care about him. Instead, he was forgotten. So that whole speech and song ("when you're broken on the ground/you will be found" ) is his way to comfort himself. He never expected it to get out beyond his immediate community. The fact that it goes viral is totally out of his control, and we see in the song how uncomfortable he is with that, but at this point he's too deep into the lie to come clean.

So I think that It's clear that the "you won't be forgotten" message has been distorted in the context of the show... we know as viewers the reality that neither Connor nor Evan were actually "found." It's a fantasy. The problem comes for people who are only listening to the cast recording, or only seeing a Twitter hashtag, and don't have that context. And that is a valid flaw in the show, that the nuances of the message can really only be gotten by seeing the whole story. 

I also think it's unfair to expect a piece of art like this to tiptoe around heavy subjects because something might be triggering. Art is often meant to challenge us, and this show clearly does, in different ways for different people, both positive and negative. But I don't want to live in a world where subjects are watered down out of fear of triggering. (Never mind that if there's a fear that this show might encourage a suicide, it's clear that it has also helped many people in the other direction.)

Updated On: 6/6/17 at 12:46 PM

[haje]

Posted: 6/6/17 at 2:44pm

Well, at least one thing is certain and that this show certainly seems to invite a lot of discussion.

My main problem with the story has never been Evan or Evan's lies necessarily but I think the show should have done a lot more to develop Connor as a character before the suicide because he's a complete cypher most of the time and while that little nugget at the end with Evan saying that he's reading Connor's 10 favorite books helps a little bit in that he's finally getting to know the actual person, it doesn't take away from the fact that we know so little about Connor and the sense of comfort Evan believes he's giving the Murphy's isn't real because the things he's saying about Connor are completely made up. I think if his lies had a little nugget of truth in them, at the very least then it would feel less icky. Or it could even be as simple as having Connor sign Evan's cast be their last and only interaction. Evan remembers that one moment of kindness he got from Connor and because of that he feels compelled to let his parents believe that Connor was a good guy and it's his way of giving back that one moment of kindness Connor offered him. Also, I think the show made a mistake not giving Evan one last moment with the Murphy's. There needed to be more closure on that front in my own opinion, instead of just him running into Zoe and her telling him everything. Speaking of Zoe, I wish the show had gotten rid of any of romance with them (even though I think Only Us is a pretty song) and instead made it more of a sibling-type relationship. I think it's far more believe for Zoe to suddenly start viewing Evan as a sort of surrogate brother than to suddenly see him as a viable romantic partner and that helps take away the other aspect of Evan's lies that makes it hard to swallow, and that's using it to romance a girl he's clearly had a crush on for awhile. I think the basic premise of the show is mostly fine and if they had just made a couple of changes then the show would be a lot tighter and more satisfying. 

I think everyone who has brought up their problems with Evan's actions has had really good and valid point. There are some out there who have an easier time forgiving him than others and I completely get both sides. The only real time I have a problem when people discuss that character is when I see a lot of "Oh he's a sociopath/psycopath, etc" talk because that is such a simplistic view of that character and also makes no sense considering Evan in the show consistently acknowledges that what he is doing is wrong and feels immense remorse about it in the end. It's one thing to feel like he got away with things scot-free, it's another thing to think that he's some kind of unfeeling sociopath. That kind of talk also ignores the fact that the show not only depicts him as someone who suffers from extreme social anxiety but also clearly suffers from a lot self-loathing and has already attempted to commit suicide once. Often times discussions I see about Evan seem ignore that aspect of him and while that doesn't excuse his actions I think it's why people have much easier time forgiving and sympathizing with him. The teens on tumblr who relate to Evan don't relate to Evan in that they think lying about someone's suicide is a good thing, I think a lot of young people who love the show are smart enough to acknowledge that what Evan is doing is wrong, what they relate to is Evan's sense of isolation, his depression, his social anxiety, etc. So I have zero problems when teenagers say that they find that character relatable.

[GhostXmasPast]

Posted: 6/6/17 at 3:22pm

froote said: "Looks like journalists are finally catching on:

http://www.slate.com/articles/arts/theater/2017/06/the_dissembling_liar_at_the_center_of_broadway_hit_dear_evan_hansen.html

 

"

... In other news - Slate pins the blame on death of Romeo AND Juliet on the despicable "lie" facilitated by Friar Laurence - declares him a "creep" -  but is ultimately OK with it as both Romeo and Juliet died in the end.

The moral ambiguity is not disguised in the least in DEH - it is always interesting when people raise the issue - when even Ben Platt openly refers to "moral ambiguity" in his interviews.  That is a major element of the story - not some flaw in it.

Updated On: 6/6/17 at 03:22 PM

[GavestonPS]

Posted: 6/6/17 at 4:31pm

JudyDenmark said: "GavestonPS said: "To me, if there's a moral "problem" with DEH it's the degree to which it plays into the thinking of many depressed people: "If I kill myself, then everyone will be sorry and realize how badly they treated me." I.e., telling a suicide "You won't be forgotten" isn't the most helpful response."

To me, the point of that song is that Evan is finally expressing (and self-acknowledging) what he wishes for himself....

"

I was referring to the idea not the actual song; I realize the number isn't just addressed to those contemplating suicide. Sorry I wasn't clearer.

But as in 13 REASONS WHY (thank you, SporkGoddess), a series I enjoyed BTW, there's this sense that if you kill yourself, people will start a GoFundMe site and preserve an orchard in your honor. In fact, everyone in your world will think and talk of nothing BUT you!

I am bothered that such an idea will appeal to depressed teens who feel invisible. And maybe if I had written the book, the "Remember Connor Murphy" campaign might not be so apparently successful at the final curtain.

[froote]

Posted: 6/6/17 at 4:51pm

GhostXmasPast, I think these tweets for me sum up why it's not just about being able to call it 'morally ambiguous' in interviews and then walking away. The average audience member does not see interviews, they just see the show which does not condemn Evan in any major way. Friar Laurence is not a character that audiences root for as a hero, symapthize with, cry for and cheer on.

https://twitter.com/kevinpokeeffe/status/872100735277686784

https://twitter.com/kevinpokeeffe/status/872101396077625345

[JudyDenmark]

Posted: 6/6/17 at 5:03pm

Froote - I'm curious. In your opinion, what would be the best ending for the show? How would Evan be punished/condemned in a way that would give you the "he got what was coming to him" closure that you are missing? 

[froote]

Posted: 6/6/17 at 5:09pm

The main issue for me is that not only does Zoe forgive him, but she is the one that we actually see do so. The most distasteful part of the whole plot for me is that part of the advantages Evan receives from telling this lie is getting his dream girl. He lies and emotionally manipulates a girl who has just lost her brother and doesn't come clean until they're already in a loving (and probably sexual) relationship. And then at the end it's all soft smiles and 'I wish we'd met now'. I'm not a theatrical writer and don't pretend to know what would make a perfect ending of a show but I would have felt much more comfortable with the show ending with Evan and his mom, perhaps figuring out that the Murphys weren't going to tell what he'd done and looking forward to the future. 

Posted: 6/6/17 at 5:12pm

MrsSallyAdams said: "A brief tangent. 

I recently had a similar discussion about the musical Kinky Boots. The finale, "Raise You Up/Just Be," put a sour taste in my mouth. I'm unable to forgive the way Don, Charlie and the other factory workers treat Lola. I'd watched them threaten and belittle Lola for half the show. Their co-worker. The consultant they hired to save their jobs. Then Charlie gives a condescending apology and Don briefly sings that he "changed his mind." Now their all friends and singing an anthem to friendship and diversity. The tagline "Just Be" was featured in the shows marketing campaign but I didn't buy it.

"

Well yeah...it's a musical. Did "You Can't Stop the Beat" also put a sour taste in your mouth? Cause based on this criteria it should have had you all but vomiting.

[Jarethan]

Posted: 6/6/17 at 5:17pm

GhostXmasPast said: "My own reflections on DEH

1.  He is introduced as a very sympathetic character - while the show itself begins with the introduction of a struggling single mother / son relationship, as well as a dysfunctional family situation with the Murphy's.

2.  Evans initial "lie" was a result of taking the path  of least resistance to avoid further pain for the Murphy's.

3.  Laughter during the show was generally in response to Jareds intersections with Evan.  Jared is established that Jared is barely above Evan in the social order of school life - a situation he deals with by being An extrovert - playing against  Evans introverted personality.

4.  As the scope and reach of Evans lies expand, several things happen.  Evans "speech" is based in his growing ability to verbalize feelings of isolation  While the public may view them as a tribute to Conner  the emotions are driven by Evans own feelings of emptiness and yearning for more in life.

5. As an audience member, sympathetic feelings towards Evan are supplemented by growing concern as to how things will resolve without utter devastation to Evan and the Murphys.

6. Evans continued actions begin to cross from sympathetic and therapudic - moving well  into self serving and manipulative.  Particularly his intersections with Zoe, Jared and Alana.  As an audience member sympathetic to Evan, I willed him not to cross each line  yet he did...

7.  Without greater reveal of plot details - given the place everyone ends up in - the ultimate resolution could play several ways - ranging from scorched earth devastation - to application of "Grace" by various parties.  Regardless of the ultimate choices made by writers, each possible outcome was driven by the plot. Given I view Evans actions as initially motivated by good intentions, before taking darker turn, I appreciated the hopeful outcome - but the events and outcomes can (and do) generate thoughtful discourse.  Which to me is one measure of a good story.

certainty reasonable minds can disagree.

i apologize for typos - I am typing on small phone while on plane - "words fail."  Hard to edit.

 

 

A very well-articulated perspective.  I personally felt that the darker turn was entirely believable.  This is a 17 - 18 year old boy, who has been damaged since his father left more than a decade earlier.  He has grown to  become an outsider who is friendless and has ridiculously low self esteem.  He wants to belong and just gets deeper and deeper because it fells so good to belong.  The end does nothing more than give hope...someone said somewhere that it was too pat and tied everything up with a ribbon.  I didn't see that at all.  I doubt that he and Zoe will ever become friends again, let alone more than that.  A great show that is appealing to the age group depicted.  I doubt that would happen if they felt it was not truthful.

 

[haje]

Posted: 6/6/17 at 5:43pm

froote said: "The main issue for me is that not only does Zoe forgive him, but she is the one that we actually see do so. The most distasteful part of the whole plot for me is that part of the advantages Evan receives from telling this lie is getting his dream girl. He lies and emotionally manipulates a girl who has just lost her brother and doesn't come clean until they're already in a loving (and probably sexual) relationship. And then at the end it's all soft smiles and 'I wish we'd met now'. I'm not a theatrical writer and don't pretend to know what would make a perfect ending of a show but I would have felt much more comfortable with the show ending with Evan and his mom, perhaps figuring out that the Murphys weren't going to tell what he'd done and looking forward to the future."

I agree. I think having him run into Zoe and having that scene feel more like them thinking about "what could have been" was a mistake. If they had wanted Evan to run into one of the Murphy's, I think having him run into Connor's mom would have been the better option and instead have the scene play out in a much more bittersweet way than the scene we get with Zoe. I can understand the Murphy's forgiving Evan, what he did was terrible but they're parents and considering what happened to their son I'm sure they thought revealing what Evan did would just make things far more complicated than they already were, I just wish the narrative had allowed for them to express those feelings. Perhaps a scene beforehand in which they tell Evan that they're not going to reveal what he did but that ultimately that they do forgive him but that his relationship with their family is completely done. Have him be grateful and also acknowledge that that's probably more than he really deserves, etc. It gives the audience that sense of Evan getting punished for what he's done but also still allows them to be sympathetic and understanding of him. I'm not a writer though so I don't know how well that actually play within the story but I really think had they just added or changed certain scenes, they would have a much more morally complex show than the show they got, which I still very much like (mostly because of the score and the incredible performances), but I think it could have been elevated to something even greater. 

[HSky]

Posted: 6/6/17 at 5:49pm

GavestonPS said: "I am bothered that such an idea will appeal to depressed teens who feel invisible. And maybe if I had written the book, the "Remember Connor Murphy" campaign might not be so apparently successful at the final curtain."

The show does address it a bit with Jared and Evan's exchange over the Connor Murphy memorial buttons and how quickly people will move on to the next cause. I'm at work and don't have the text accessible at the moment, but also, doesn't the Kickstarter campaign technically fall short (it's the Murphys who see the project is completed)?

[haje]

Posted: 6/6/17 at 6:13pm

It has it's issues but I don't know if I would consider DEH to be glorifying suicide at all. I understand the criticisms that 13RW has gotten (I haven't seen it so I can only judge based on what I've read) but when it comes to suicide, I don't think DEH at all encourages or says that committing suicide somehow equals suddenly everyone knowing your name. As HSky mentions, there's an entire conversation re: the fact that Connor's suicide will just soon be a long forgotten memory.

The problems with 13RW (as I've read it) is that it not only shows a very graphic suicide scene (which could be very triggering for those who watch it) but that it apparently showcases the idea that you can use suicide as some sort of "revenge" or way to get back at others or that it's the only way people can hear what you have to say. I don't think that's depicted at all in DEH. Disappear as a song isn't about "if you commit suicide people will suddenly notice you", it's about how people matter and deserve to be remembered, no matter how unimportant they may seem while they were alive, it's important to acknowledge that they lived a life, etc. I don't find that message all that harmful and I don't think teens (at least what I've seen on tumblr) are somehow getting the wrong message from that song. Let's also not forget that Connor isn't the only one in the play to commit/attempt suicide. Evan does too and while Evan essentially lies to himself that what happened wasn't a suicide attempt, he eventually cops to it and admits that the reason he did it was because he felt incredibly alone and the show doesn't romanticize or glamourize this at all. It makes the scene with Helen and Evan when she tells him that he can tell her anything and he just goes "You'll hate me", particularly powerful and says a lot about how deep his self-loathing lies and also I think it's a very realistic response from someone who has attempted or thought about suicide. This idea that once they reveal that it's something they've thought about or attempted, they'll be immediately judged for it and the fact that his mom chooses to accept him and tells him that she's not going away and will always be there for him is much better way to handle it than the way 13RW seems to have handled its suicide themes (aside from the y'know obvious premise of the show which is someone coopting someone else's suicide and taking advantage of it which I'm sure is a whole 'nother long discussion but I've posted enough for today lol). 

Updated On: 6/6/17 at 06:13 PM