Unintentionally Racist Showtunes- Page 2

[Fosse76]

Posted: 10/14/09 at 11:34am

"Make sure you understand the difference between racism, racial sterotypes, and racial slurs.

Most of the examples here aren't racism."

Exactly, and intentionally so. I think a few people here need to take a reading comprehension class. The OP wanted UNINTENTIONALLY racist songs. In other words, songs, that when written, may have seemed harmless enough but would now be considered derogatory and inappropriate. Nothing in Avenue Q or Ragtime would fall under this, as everything in those shows was intentional.

[PalJoey]

Posted: 10/14/09 at 11:47am

I posted the Oscar Hammerstein lyrics because I find it endlessly fascinating that his writings are often interpreted in contemporary contexts as containing racial slurs.

When he wrote Show Boat, his intention was to criticize racism. The characters of Queenie and Joe were not intended as racial stereotypes, although they were intended to be dignified archetypes.

But as time went on, the dignity in the archetypes faded from view, and the language, the uses of the N word and references to being "shiftless" began to seem like racial slurs.

I'm sure this was distressing to Oscar Hammerstein, who was a lifelong progressive.

So, in that way, it is unintentional racism, because it was never his intention.

[janice4]

Posted: 10/14/09 at 12:32pm

How about White Boys, from Hair?

[SporkGoddess]

Posted: 10/14/09 at 2:58pm

Some people think that Miss Saigon has some racism, like "Why was I born of a race that thinks only of rice and hates entrepreneurs?" The song "Sacred Bird" was also taken out of the show for being too "stereotyped," though there are other examples throughout the show of Kim saying things that could be construed as reflecting a stereotypical Western view of how Asians talk.

[Kad]

Posted: 10/14/09 at 4:27pm

"Agreed about The Mikado- although the most squirm-inducing moment in Mikado is when Ko-Ko mentions offhand that black singers and "All others of his race" ought to be exterminated."

The line is actually referring to performers in black face.

[nomdeplume]

Posted: 10/14/09 at 5:34pm

Listen kooks, if something isn't racist it can't be unintentionally racist either.

Let's not get word snobby or GO DO YOUR OWN HOMEWORK and find the references yourself.

[AEA AGMA SM]

Posted: 10/14/09 at 8:07pm

"Under the Bamboo Tree" from Meet Me in St. Louis. When the movie was produced these kinds of minstrel songs were still fairly widely accepted, and I think it was held over in the stage version just because it was considered such a memorable moment in the movie.

[BDrischBDemented]

Posted: 10/14/09 at 8:57pm

How would "White Boys" be racist?

[Kad]

Posted: 10/14/09 at 8:59pm

If "White Boys" is racist, then so is "Black Boys"... but given what the songs are saying, it's laughable to even consider that they could be even misinterpreted as racist.

[FindingNamo]

Posted: 10/14/09 at 10:06pm

"Listen kooks, if something isn't racist it can't be unintentionally racist either.

"Let's not get word snobby or GO DO YOUR OWN HOMEWORK and find the references yourself."

nomdelaine, that doesn't mean if something isn't unintentionally racist it isn't racist. Just that the person who created it wasn't intentionally setting out to make a deliberately belittling or insulting statement of some sort. For instance, the jury is still out about whether the racism in your letter to the New York Times criticizing the Chinamen who delivered take out on their bicycles was unintentionally racist or not. That it was racist is not in dispute, but whether you meant to be insulting seems to be up for some debate. I prefer to not give you the benefit of the doubt, but that's just me.

[PalJoey]

Posted: 10/14/09 at 10:12pm

What is it called when you're called out on your unintentional racism and then you vehemently deny that your undeniably racist statement was racist because you've never thought of your intentions as racist in any way, shape or form?

What she got against bicycle delivery guys anyhoo?

[FindingNamo]

Posted: 10/14/09 at 10:24pm

I think it was specifically the Chinese ones. And maybe it's because an hour later she's horny again? "Wok Boy, He Delivers," right nom?

[nomdeplume]

Posted: 10/15/09 at 1:24am

You don't do your homework.

You are wrong.

Check again and do your homework and figure out what you forgot to research.

Things don't exist in a vacuum, especially responses.

Titles over opinion letters can apply to a full page of response letters, not just one, though it may carry the title.

So what was the original article and where is it?????

Oh, the work you failed, you failed to do.

Ahhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh!

[For those of you who don't follow this, I am just responding to a couple mistaken people who will never become detectives, espionage agents, journalists or succeed in any career requiring research and/or analytical thought. Just carry on with the thread and ignore them and this post.] Updated On: 10/15/09 at 01:24 AM

[Craww]

Posted: 10/15/09 at 7:01am

Make sure you understand the difference between racism, racial sterotypes, and racial slurs.

Most of the examples here aren't racism.

I think you get what the OP is saying, and making a distinction between racism and racial stereotypes is really splitting hairs. I'm pretty sure racial stereotypes fall under racism in this context. (Racist slurs don't necessarily, depending on who is using them and the intention they're used with.)

If "White Boys" is racist, then so is "Black Boys"... but given what the songs are saying, it's laughable to even consider that they could be even misinterpreted as racist.

Though it's obviously intended to be positive, racial fetishism can be pretty offensive to some minorities. While it's hard to call something complimentary something so strong as "racist", it's a certainty that the Otherness and Exoticising in Black Boys/White Boys is somewhat questionable. (Keep in mind, I can't say I personally find it offensive. I think of it as a naive and harmless product of its era, and I love it. I'm just saying that I think the mention in this thread is appropriate.)

[PalJoey]

Posted: 10/15/09 at 8:30am

The juxtaposition of "Black Boys" and "White Boys" was making fun of racial fetishism, even back in 1967.

[mamaleh]

Posted: 10/15/09 at 9:27am

The Disney cartoon feature, PETER PAN, contains a song, "What Makes the Red Man Red?," that undoubtedly would not be included in the score today.

[scooter38432]

Posted: 10/15/09 at 9:36am

There are lots of racial slurs (against Native Americans) in LITTLE MARY SUNSHINE'S "Me a Heap Big Injun".

(Additionally, there's a horribly un-PC song called "Say Uncle" with an older man ogling over a bunch of schoolgirls.)

[MTVMANN]

Posted: 10/15/09 at 1:29pm

You might consider "Spanish Rose" from Birdie...although you can say that a lot of it is intentional, the original lyrics might be a bit too offensive to some now.
Vanessa Williams sang a slightly more PC version in the 1995 film, and I would bet something similar is done in the current Broadway version.

[Craww]

Posted: 10/15/09 at 1:41pm

The juxtaposition of "Black Boys" and "White Boys" was making fun of racial fetishism, even back in 1967.

I can buy that, but it doesn't necessarily read that way to me every time. I think it's obviously tongue in cheek, but I'm not sure it reads as a statement. It reads as goofy hippie naivety, just like 75% of the show. And in that context, I guess we have to decide how much of the show is supposed to be embraced sincerely and how much is supposed to be cynically jibed.

Much like most of the subjects of this thread, the intention of the creators is not necessarily the way it will be perceived. Hair, in specific, I've always found to send mixed messages.
Updated On: 10/15/09 at 01:41 PM

[fgreene1938]

Posted: 10/15/09 at 2:08pm

"Chop Suey" from FLOWER DRUM SONG is a list song but the way it's written and performed has an unintentionally racist quality to it. That show wasn't done for decades because many Asian-Americans found its stereotyping offensive.

[PalJoey]

Posted: 10/15/09 at 2:08pm

"Three-Five-Zero-Zero" is the song from Hair that always chilled me with its use of the N word--but that was intentional on Rado and Ragni's part, no unintentional.