Update: AIN'T NO MO extended thru December 23! Yay!- Page 6

[verywellthensigh]

Posted: 12/11/22 at 7:27pm

Random thoughts:

I have to agree with some posters that the ideology-forward, issue-driven play seems to be falling out of fashion with playgoers, whether it is about racism, campus rape (Oh, the number of campus rape plays that were produced in Philly pre-Covid!) or whatever.  No successful show is truly about nothing, of course (Okay, maybe Cats), but there definitely seems to be a shift in that ticket-buyers are craving aesthetic pleasures than they were pre-Covid and that goes for the successes of The Piano Lesson and Death of a Salesman.  

By the same token, it is interesting to me that musicals seem to be veering away from empty escapism.  It's fascinating to me that shows like Hamilton, Come From Away, Dear Even Hansen, Six--shows that are ABOUT SOMETHING do scads better business than the Tootsies, Groundhog Days, and Spongebobs of the last 10 years or so.  Whatever their quality, they just feel passé.  One of the reasons why I think K-Pop didn't do well is that it didn't appear to be genuinely about anything whereas &Juliet can at least play the subversive feminist angle. 

Figuring out what audiences want to see post-2000 has been a delicate dance and has become even more delicate since Covid.  I don't envy anyone running a theater right about now.  Nothing feels like a cash cow anymore.  It's particularly tough regionally because theaters are having a bitch of a time just getting people to come back to the theaters in the first place. 

"Go woke and go broke" is so gross and reactionary but watching the idealism of WSYWAT ethos come smash against the hard economics of theaters keeping the lights on has been pretty dispiriting.  

 

[SouthernCakes]

Posted: 12/11/22 at 8:11pm

I don’t think I’ve back pedaled at all. If the majority of Broadway audiences are white, and these types of shows are all failing… by the transitive property .. audiences don’t want these shows 

[Robbie2]

Posted: 12/11/22 at 8:52pm

SouthernCakes said: "I don’t think I’ve back pedaled at all. If the majority of Broadway audiences are white, and these types of shows are all failing… by the transitive property .. audiences don’t want these shows"

That's true. If this - ANM can't find an audience how will Fat Ham? 

The Broadway league demographics of theatergoers show that around 78% of audiences are white and only 4% are Black. So there you go.

[JasonC3]

Posted: 12/11/22 at 8:56pm

Fat Ham has a different pedigree and is a very different production, so it may have an appeal that ANM apparently did not.

[HogansHero]

Posted: 12/11/22 at 9:45pm

This thread has really come off the rails.

1. If you want to sell a product, you have to market your product to potential customers. If you invent a   computer and keep it a secret, people keep using their typewriters, calculators, and pens and pencils.

2. The future of Broadway is not in the present; it is in the future. I didn't think I'd have to explain that. Broadway is doing a terrible job of diversifying its audience and the solution here seems to be to pretend this is not a problem. (Oh, and the problem is not just with ethnic groups; the parallel and correlated problem is age groups.) But let's look at last century's data instead of this one we still have 80% of which to trudge through. Genius!!!

3. "Woke" means "sensitive to social justice" so woke is gross means sensitivity to social justice is gross. Let's take a step back and think about what that means. 

4. If you think we cannot right this ship, have a seat and watch 50s and 60s TV reruns and ask yourself if we still portray women, blacks, asians, gays, etc. as they were portrayed then. 

5. Spend a few minutes thinking about what you are saying instead of just making noise. 

[The Distinctive Baritone]

Posted: 12/11/22 at 10:03pm

Remember when people could disagree with each other and still be kind and respectful? Different times, eh?

[verywellthensigh]

Posted: 12/11/22 at 10:20pm

When did I say that being woke was gross?

Again, people: Let's try  B-A-S-I-C  R-E-A-D-I-N-G  C-O-M-P-R-E-H-E-N-S-I-O-N before you start slapping yer outrage bean.

[SouthernCakes]

Posted: 12/11/22 at 10:21pm

HogansHero said: "This thread has really come off the rails.

1. If you want to sell a product, you have to market your product to potential customers. If you invent a computer and keep it a secret, people keep using their typewriters, calculators, and pens and pencils.

2. The future of Broadway is not in the present; it is in the future. I didn't think I'd have to explain that. Broadway is doing a terrible job of diversifying its audience and the solution here seems to be to pretend this is not a problem. (Oh, and the problem is not just with ethnic groups; the parallel and correlated problem is age groups.) But let's look at last century's data instead of this one we still have 80% of which to trudge through. Genius!!!

3. "Woke" means "sensitive to social justice" so woke is gross means sensitivity to social justice is gross. Let's take a step back and think about what that means.

4. If you think we cannot right this ship, have a seat and watch 50s and 60s TV reruns and ask yourself if we still portray women, blacks, asians, gays, etc. as they were portrayed then.

5. Spend a few minutes thinking about what you are saying instead of just making noise."

I’ve lost the plot of what or who you’re even angry at? I think we can all agree on all those points? Their advertising sucks but also audiences didn’t turn out for the other half a dozen POC center shows or even one that one the Tony for best new musical. Clearly there’s more at play here than just advertising. Old white people want to see A Beautiful Noise and tourists want to see Wicked for the 10th time. 

[HogansHero]

Posted: 12/11/22 at 10:45pm

@verywellthensigh very well then, sorry, I misread your intent. My point, and I am perhaps not ready to let you off the hook entirely (but let me know if I am still misreading you), is that the focus in this thread is largely on what is, which is not especially debatable, which occludes the truly important focus on how to fix this and make a way that results in inclusiveness on both sides of the 4th wall. Which brings us to:

"audiences didn’t turn out for the other half a dozen POC center shows or even one that one the Tony for best new musical."

That states a problem, but in doing so ignores the need for a solution. We have to get past the focus on the status quo ante and figure out how to fix this. And if Jordan Cooper's heartbreak, or some celebrities doing something that doesn't quite get there, helps move us in the right direction, good, not bad on them.

[pmondrian]

Posted: 12/11/22 at 10:58pm

Unless production costs are dramatically reduced, or a generous sponsor  is found, the solution is to look for shows that have crossover appeal.  We are seeing many quality shows that are not finding audiences large enough to support them.  It's in part because their subject matter doesn't interest enough prospective ticket buyers.  Maybe you can successfully change that perception by ticket buyers, but given the cost of Broadway tickets, that is a tough sell. 

[HogansHero]

Posted: 12/11/22 at 11:21pm

pmondrian said: "Unless production costs are dramatically reduced, or a generous sponsor is found, the solution is to look for shows that have crossover appeal. We are seeing many quality shows that are not finding audiences large enough to support them. It's in part because their subject matter doesn't interest enough prospective ticket buyers. Maybe you can successfully change that perception by ticket buyers, but given the cost of Broadway tickets, that is a tough sell."

Well, crossover appeal is a compromise, and compromise ought not be how we make theatre IMO.I think you have done a very good job of expressing the elements of the law of supply and demand. Where we have the supply (of quality shows), we need to work on demand (i.e., marketing). If the subject is not of interest to enough prospective buyers, we need to increase the supply of interesting work AND we need to create new pools of prospective buyers who ARE interested. I don't think the issue is money. The people we want and need are spending plenty of money, just not on theatre. That naturally is the challenge.

[Robbie2]

Posted: 12/11/22 at 11:25pm

JasonC3 said: "Fat Ham has a different pedigree and is a very different production, so it may have an appeal that ANM apparently did not."

We shall see as that's to be decided by the target audience and if any wants to see it? Watched the scenes-clips on youtube and no thank you and we have no desire seeing this. Did not find it funny or at all interesting. Not sure why it's transferring?

[PipingHotPiccolo]

Posted: 12/11/22 at 11:26pm

HogansHero said: "
And if Jordan Cooper's heartbreak, or some celebrities doing something that doesn't quite get there, helps move us in the right direction, good, not bad on them."

Yeah, you lose me here. Jordan Cooper, from what I've read, didn't lament that his play couldnt find an audience; he lashed out as if anyone is to blame for this reality. The KPop team decided Jesse Green was the problem. In both situations, neither party was able to acknowledge that inherent in doing something different/new/outthere is the the difficulty in getting lotsa people to plunk down 2hours/$75 for it.  I think we agree on the problem/diagnosis/solution stuff but Ive been reacting to the way the ANM and Kpop folks HAVE NOT gone down that road at all. 

[HogansHero]

Posted: 12/12/22 at 12:33am

PipingHotPiccolo said: "Yeah, you lose me here. Jordan Cooper, from what I've read, didn't lament that his play couldnt find an audience; he lashed out as if anyone is to blame for this reality. The KPop team decided Jesse Green was the problem. In both situations, neither party was able to acknowledge that inherent in doing something different/new/outthere is the the difficulty in getting lotsa people to plunk down 2hours/$75 for it. I think we agree on the problem/diagnosis/solution stuff but Ive been reacting to the way the ANM and Kpop folks HAVE NOT gone down that road at all."

Well, I acknowledge I have a couple of opinions weighing on some of what I am saying here and how I would react to what you said. First of all, based entirely on his MO in the show (which I found beyond smart and clever in lots of ways), I think his posture of blame has (largely-I do think the is genuine heartbreak because he is young and we've all been there and we are not instantaneously rational and level headed in such moments) a significant performative component. (FWIW I also think it cuts in both directions, meaning both toward white and black audiences, just as the show does, and I don't think the Smiths act of "charity" was an accident.) Second, I am not going to accept lumping ANM and KPOP in the same category because I think ANM is a work of quality and, unfortunately, the version of KPOP that made it to Broadway is a work of mediocrity. Finally, regarding "going down that road," I don't think that's the job of the playwright; that's producing. Building a market is a talent but it is not one we expect of a creator of the show. (And her again, I am not discussing KPOP and its can of worms with the producer.) A creator of a show should reasonably expect that if they bring the art, someone making the commerce will take care of getting the butts in the seats. And finally finally, I don't think we can solve these embedded institutional problems on a dime and certainly not in the moment. A younger, more diverse audience -- isn't built in a day But no one is doing enough. So when I say if Cooper's actions spur something positive, I am all for it even if the execution might seem clumsy to some or many. 

[SouthernCakes]

Posted: 12/12/22 at 12:35am

Updated On: 12/12/22 at 12:35 AM

[Theater3232]

Posted: 12/12/22 at 1:15am

They should ask themselves why other shows like Six and Moulin Rouge are successful. Those are fun shows that people want to see over and over, and they have a diverse cast. These two shows that are closing (Kpop and ANM) were simply put, overlong and boring. Playing the race card won't sell tickets. Making a show more appealing will.

[ManOfLaMuncha]

Posted: 12/12/22 at 6:07am

Why is this person going on about "Old White People"?  Stop being racist/ageist.

[Kad]

Posted: 12/12/22 at 10:07am

verywellthensigh said: "
but watching the idealism of WSYWAT ethos come smash against the hard economics of theaters keeping the lights on has been pretty dispiriting.

"

WSYWAT was never going to accomplish anything because it… didn’t really try to accomplish anything other than calling people out. It shared a list of demands and then did literally nothing to follow up on it. It was an opaque, rudderless movement that offered little in the way of solutions. 

[Duckie4]

Posted: 12/12/22 at 10:13am

Hello, old white lady of means here. (Well, I'm 61 but by the board's standards I guess I'm old.)  Don't live full time in the city, but have a place there for coming up every few weeks to see shows, so I know more about Broadway than your average ticket buyer.  I always pay full price because I can afford it and in a weird way I feel like that supports Broadway. I guess I'm a sucker. 

Had tickets to both KPOP and Ain't No Mo for January.  

Heard very little about ANM, but I always actively look for info. Most people don't. This is holiday time, people are busy. It's also peak flu and covid time in NYC and "old white people" like me often prefer others wear masks around us and with no show mask mandate it's frustrating.  

Had friends with me in October. They all wanted to see Funny Girl so I saw it again. It's fun, it's Lea, and we old people are depressed after the last few years and want something fun.  And trust me, I'm an actress who believes that seeing things that aren't targeted to me still very important.  But we old people are a tired audience. 

For what any of this is worth. 

I don't know what the answer is regarding future shows or marketing or producing. I just buy the full price tickets. But there are LOTS of factors that go into what I see and when. I just didn't have a chance to see this one. I guess Thanksgiving and Christmas are just really busy when you're old. 

 

 

Updated On: 12/12/22 at 10:13 AM

[JasonC3]

Posted: 12/12/22 at 11:01am

@Duckie4 said: But there are LOTS of factors that go into what I see and when. I just didn't have a chance to see this one.

This is worth remembering.  It is natural to try and assign blame on one variable when a show we like doesn't succeed, but the answer is almost always more complex.

Here we sometimes talk about the merits of an individual show in isolation whereas ticket buyers often are considering them in relation to their other options.  Ain't No Mo has been on my list to see for awhile, but compared to other shows on that list, it just hadn't made the cut yet.

[HogansHero]

Posted: 12/12/22 at 11:50am

JasonC3 said: "This is worth remembering. It is natural to try and assign blame on one variable when a show we like doesn't succeed, but the answer is almost always more complex.

Here we sometimes talk about the merits of an individual show in isolation whereas ticket buyers often are considering them in relation to their other options. Ain't No Mo has been on my list to see for awhile, but compared to other shows on that list, it just hadn't made the cut yet."

Both parts of this are very true. It's complex and on this board especially it's even more oversimplified than usual because a lot of the "analysis" we read is driven by personal like/dislike of a show. One further point about options. For two years now, some of us have been saying that reopening/opening too many shows would be injurious and that there needed to be some rational forbearance to control the supply. We did not get that at all. (And here too the reasons are complex.) This morning there are 34 shows running, and that's after yesterday's closing of KPOP. 

[quizking101]

Posted: 12/12/22 at 11:58am

Just bought tickets for closing. I wonder where TDF will put me?

If you support the show, go. If you don't, please zip your lips.

Nothing productive is coming out of this back and forth meat-swinging contest

[Highland Guy]

Posted: 12/12/22 at 12:04pm

Duckie4 said: " I'm 61 but by the board's standards I guess I'm old."

 
You are not "Old".  You are a "Super Citizen".

 

Updated On: 12/12/22 at 12:04 PM

[troynow]

Posted: 12/12/22 at 1:31pm

As an avid theatre goer and worker, I do have a problem with the rhetoric being spewed from the show. 
"To say we have not had time to find our audience, or we need to change Broadway and the structures that support only white focused shows, or to say, SAVE US AS THIS SPACE IS NOT MEANT FOR PEOPLE THAT LOOK LIKE US"

To say, Topdog/Underdog, Piano Lesson or Death of a Salesman as "WHITE SHOWS" compared to AINT NO MO? 

For some reason none of those shows are in danger of closing. Some with notables and some without. More over, THE WORK ITSELF IS GOOD! 

Lastly, this is commercial theatre...if your show does not sell then look to your producer and ask what happened? Then look at the market...We are in the business of supply and demand. There is no demand for AINT NO MO. 

THAT IS NOT A RACIST REFLECTION OF BROADWAY. It is a reflection that people didn't dig it. SAME HAPPENED FOR:
BE MORE CHILL

THE CHER SHOW

WALKING WITH GHOSTS

THE LIST GOES ON AND ON....this BROADWAY. 

[RippedMan]

Posted: 12/12/22 at 1:45pm

troynow said: "As an avid theatre goer and worker, I do have a problem with the rhetoric being spewed from the show.
"To say we have not had time to find our audience, or we need to change Broadway and the structures that support only white focused shows, or to say, SAVE US AS THIS SPACE IS NOT MEANT FOR PEOPLE THAT LOOK LIKE US"

To say, Topdog/Underdog, Piano Lesson or Death of a Salesman as "WHITE SHOWS" compared to AINT NO MO?

For some reason none of those shows are in danger of closing. Some with notables and some without. More over, THE WORK ITSELF IS GOOD!

Lastly, this is commercial theatre...if your show does not sell then look to your producer and ask what happened? Then look at the market...We are in the business of supply and demand. There is no demand for AINT NO MO.

THAT IS NOT A RACIST REFLECTION OF BROADWAY. It is a reflection that people didn't dig it. SAME HAPPENED FOR:
BE MORE CHILL

THE CHER SHOW

WALKING WITH GHOSTS

THE LIST GOES ON AND ON....this BROADWAY."

I think you're missing the point. We're discussing, shows that have opened since the pandemic, shows that are from a POC perspective, have struggled greatly and not really found any success. I would have guessed Death of a Salesman and Piano Lesson - pre pandemic - would have been very hot tickets to get. But they sort of are just trudging along.