black broadway shows- Page 3

Posted: 10/22/03 at 12:33am

King Stevos-- I agree with you on the fact that it can be our art. And in many ways, I respect you even more for the fact that you can passionately discuss with me what you believe in. The fact that you have not taken it to "that other level" is what makes me respect and even learn from what you have to say.

I thank you for that.

[Mr. Tuttle]

Posted: 10/22/03 at 1:53am

Yes.my kudos to Blackbirds for an articulate presentation (I take it your name is based on the famous musicals?). You've hit on some great points that I hope will be addressed here. But knowing how certain parties love to talk in circles.....

And King...I too look forward to a day when we can have a black Lincoln. Art is about expanding the possibility.

Hopefully, we can expand some minds as well. If not here, perhaps in the real world.

[lensman55]

Posted: 10/22/03 at 9:16am

I liked "Timbuktu," when I saw it years ago.

I sort of wished someone would film it because I felt the film version of "Kismet" was butchered by the ending.

[MasterLcZ]

Posted: 10/22/03 at 9:22am

Does that mean that we can look forward to a return of Mr. Tambo & Mr. Bones?

[MusicMan]

Posted: 10/22/03 at 9:52am

Make it stop, Mommy, MAKE IT STOP!

[TheBalladeer]

Posted: 10/22/03 at 10:21am

Blackbirds, thank you for your post. For the most part I agree with what you said. And no, you are not the only African-American to post on this topic. If you read my posts carefully, you will see that I have identified myself as one.

I still disagree with your views on multiethnic casting for ALL roles in The Wiz. Can some roles be cast that way? Yes - but for some roles, because of lines and scenarios in the script, I find that there should be some discretion with whom you cast in them. I have seen a Caucasian Lion in The Wiz who could not interpret and just could not grasp the "slangs" that were incorporated into the script. I mean he tried, but it just never landed well at all. He tried so hard to overcompensate for it, that he just ended up looking silly. Same with Dorothy - she was Caucasian, couldn't make some of her lines land well. This is just from what I have seen. IF they wanted to have a multiethnic "Wiz", they would seriously need to do some script revisions, and not make it seem too geared towards the black community.

And so that I may not seem like a fool, I wish I had the script here at work, so that I could point out specific lines that just doesn't work. I will do that later when I have access to my script.

As for other roles that are not race and ethnicity specific, I agree....there should be no reason why color of skin should be an issue. Traditional shows such as Guys and Dolls, Into the Woods, Sweeney Todd, Little Shop, etc. should have no problem casting differently. Although I would say that in Little Shop, since the author described certain characters in a certain way, they should be played that way for it to fully work.

I have issues with things like "A Black Audrey" or a multiethnic "urchin" group, because the jokes and satire initially intended for these roles would not be seen. But am I against it because I find different skin colors to be distracting, no. When you do this kind of casting, you have to take all aspects into consideration. Will it alter the original intention of the author? Will it completely change the story? Do character relationships still work as effectively as before? If you took the previous example that I mentioned, a lot of the humor from the clever script will be lost alone. Especially with the "urchins" because the joke is that each of the girls' names are taken from black doo-wop female groups of the 60's. If they were cast untraditionally, although it could work, that whole ongoing joke would be lost, and the author's intention would have been lost as well. Audrey is a walking joke as well. Described in the script as a cross between Fay Wray, Goldie Hawn, and Marilyn Munroe. If you cast someone else other than that, a lot of her sight gags, and jokes would be completely lost.

Robbiej gave an excellent example of "Once on This Island". I participated in a production of this show, where I played Papa Ge. My Ti Moune was White. My Euralie was white as well. So was most of the cast. There was another black person and a hispanic girl, but for the most part, it was a white cast. Although it was a powerful production, and worked, it could have been so much more, had there been more blacks of different shades and complexions, WITH the White cast members, and other minorities, to show the distinguishing between the two different classes. However, this was not the case, and a lot of the source material went over people's heads.

Now, I am not defending Namo, because I disagree with the idea of having "black musicals" just for the sake of them, in THIS day and time, since things are getting BETTER with casting, note: I said BETTER - we're still not there yet. But again, I have to stress that when you do this, you do it with caution and logic. What I suggest? If you really want to do this, you need to make revisions in librettos to support your casting decisions. Revisions are always made with revivals. Nothing drastic, but making sure that what your trying to do isn't upstaged by the material itself.

Blackbirds, again, I really respect your opinion. It is nice to read another view from an African-American. Unfortunately, I was not even born yet when the orignial production of The Wiz launched, but I did imagine that creating it would be a vehicle for African-American performers to showcase their talents and have a show where they know that can be cast in without having to worry about their skin color. But I also feel that The Wiz is so much more than that, and that is why it will always have a special place in my heart.

Cheers,
The Balladeer

Updated On: 10/22/03 at 10:21 AM

[robbiej]

Posted: 10/22/03 at 11:03am

My does this subject inspire thoughful debate!

And I would also like to point out that, although some have expressed fear that this would become a bloodbath, that most the points, whether in agreement or not, have been intelligently made and respectful of others. Let's pat ourselves on the back! (pat pat)

It's such an expansive subject that to try to make all your points in one post is silly, so I will attempt to continue articulating what I believe.

I have been an advocate for Heather Headley to play Audrey in LSOH. Firstly, because I think she is a remarkably versatile and talented actress. Secondly, having an actress of color play the role automatically negates the comparison to the incomparable Ellen Greene. I say this being very aware of the character description left to us by the late Howard Ashman. But nowhere in the text of the script itself does it describe Audrey as blond or even white. And it can be historically accurate (although I do not think that is an issue about a show in which a plant takes over the world) to have the role played by a black woman.

I'm a big proponent of non-traditional casting, even when others think it doesn't make sense. I saw a production of XMAS CAROL in which young scrooge was black but older Scrooge was white. The Cratchitt's were a Benetton ad and it didn't bother me one bit. One must be careful about the message one sends, though, when employing non-traditional casting. For example, I have a friend (who has been mentioned on this board for his off-Broadway debut last year) who did a production of DAMN YANKEES at my alma mater. He was playing Young Joe and was concerned because the director, in a desperate attempt to show how 'color-blind' he was, casted the role of Old Joe as an African-American. Forget, for a second, that the magic of the moment where old Joe becomes young Joe is disturbed. What does it say to have the hero go from black to white in order to save the day?

Would I cast a black man in 1776? As one of the statesmen, probably not (although a black Franklin could be interesting). It's the song 'Molasses to Rum to Slaves' that is the problem. There are certain shows that specifically deal with race that, I, as a director, would not know how to address if the casting was against ethnic type. Does that mean it should never be done, specifically by a director with more vision than myself? Certainly not. It's just the production I would cast.

[sheekala]

Posted: 10/22/03 at 11:07am

Balla, you always impress me, I can imagine you being a fine performer. When I saw Miss Saigon when it first opened I saw both Johnathan Pryce and his understudy, who were both Caucasian (So was the Thuy),and they all had on elaborate wigs and make-up or "yellowface" to coin a dated and offensive phrase to some. Now I'd like to say it offended me or was wrong, but they were both amazing in the role, their strange appearance added to the Engineer being an outcast and stuck between both worlds as he was of mixed race in the story. When it arrived in the US, that of course was gone and JP looked just like JP and it took me out of the story. As the show ran it's course I saw it again a number of times but it never was a enjoyable as that first weekend. It's a tough topic because while'll we'd all love their to be colorblind casting in everything, sometimes it's just flat out wrong and if against the authors wishes and desire the worst kind of pandering.

[simplywill]

Posted: 10/22/03 at 6:06pm

i think colorblind casting could work in most plays and musicals. I think a problem we find when doing so is the actor who isn't traditionally the race of the character then tries to modify and include their individual and biased interpratation of that race into the character. If a white woman tries to play one of the doo wop girls in little shop and overtries to convey the ghetto or poorer black aspect of the character, she then becomes a travesty and laughing stock. In the same right if a woman like madam headley tries to play audrey as close as possible to the origional or movie actresses, she is then a sad case. I think sometimes you have to play a role in a manner that makes sense to you and blends with what would make sense to the character, instead of modeling yourself after someone who'd done the character previous.

I'm suprised no1's mentioned it but, i thought the disney video of r and h's cinderella played quite nicely. There was no confusion amongst the simple hearted children who watched it(at least not my nieces and nephew), and i don't see why we as adults have to overanylize it into something that it doesn't have to be.

still no comments about hello dolly, hmm?

Will

[Dollypop]

Posted: 10/22/03 at 9:56pm

Pearl Bailey's DOLLY...

What a singular experience! On Saturday night the show ended with Betty Grable in the title role. On Monday night the curtain rose on the same sets, costumes, orchestrations, direction and choreography, but with an entirely new cast that happened to be black. No names were changed: it was still "Dolly Gallagher Levi" and "Horace Vandergelder", but there were black actors playing the parts. They revitalized a show that has been playing for about 4 1/2 years and suddenly seats for TWHM were hot, hot, hot! The audiences ate up Pearlie Mae in the role of Dolly and critics were euphoric over the "new" production. For once, black actors and actresses were fully accepted in roles that weren't specifically written for blacks.

Only one line of dialogue was changed, but I think the change took place before Pearlie Mae walked down the stairs of the Harmonia Gardens Restaurant. As Stanley excitedly described the lady who was entering the restaurant, he previously said that she had "lots and lots of red hair". The word "red" was dropped when Betty Grable played Dolly because she did the role as a blonde. TGC and Ginger Rogers wore wigs (although Rogers abandoned the wig shortly after she assumed the role because audiences weren't immediately recognizing her--still the line remained "red"). Martha Raye had auburn hair, so the "red" line made sense. Anyhow, Pearl's Dolly was described as a woman with "lots and lots of hair". Oh yes, Pearlie Mae tossed in a few "honey's" and I believe at one point she called Ermengarde "Sugar", but that was Pearl.

I think what made the Pearl Bailey company of TWHM so sensational was the amount of talent gathered for the production. In addition to Pearlie Mae, there were Cab Calloway, Emily Yancy, Jack Crowder, Chris Calloway and Mabel King--in addition to an energetic and glorious ensemble. Their talent allowed audiences to overlook the colors of their skin and accept them in the roles they were playing. It was nothing short of marvelous.

Perhaps no discussion of the Pearl Bailey company would be complete without mentioning the "Act Three" that she and Cab Calloway did after every performance. They sent the rest of the cast home and brought stools onto the runway. They sat themselves down and entertained the audience for another half hour--out of the generosity of their hearts. Cab sand "Minnie the Moocher" and Pearl did "Bill Bailey Won't You Please Come Home" among other tunes associated with the two performers. Sometimes Pearl did "I Believe" and brought such conviction to the lyric that it became quite emotional. Oh yes, and she would chat with the "teeny weenies"--the little ones who had come to see TWHM but were so tiny they couldn't keep the seats down.

Pearl Bailey stayed with TWHM for about two years and the show was awarded yet another Tony Award--it's 11th--for "Special Achievement in the Theater". No words could sum up the experience more effectively.

Posted: 10/22/03 at 10:24pm

I thank most of you for your intelligent discussion of this important topic. I respect you even more for the fact that you can passionately discuss with me what you believe in. The fact that a few of you you have not taken it to "that other level" is what makes me respect and even learn from what you have to say.

King Stevos, Balladeer, RobbieJ and Will: Your opinions are most appreciated. No one said we had to all agree although I do find it interesting when people start screaming about their right to say what they feel is being squashed when, in fact, no one has even done that.

It seems certian participants (especially those with their head in the god all mighty precious NY Times, the obvious end all and be all of communication) think that minority performers are fine in limited "non traditional roles" when they are not playing a real, living person (dead or alive).

So answer me this. As Box Office John states, he could not see an Audra McDonald playing Evita because Eva Peron was a real, live person. HOWEVER...we seems to have NO PROBLEM with the fact that the original Evita was played by a WHITE, NON HISPANIC WOMAN. Why is this ok in your view? I fail to understand your logic. It's not ok for Audra, a minority, but perfectly fine for a white woman to play Evita?

Seems pretty racist to me.



Updated On: 10/22/03 at 10:24 PM

[MusicMan]

Posted: 10/22/03 at 10:33pm

As DollyPop notes, Ms. Bailey would hold court with the audience after the show. This was also true during the revival in the late 70's, except this time the cast was required to stay onstage during her antics. After she would do her one-liners (For example, in the wake of a notorious musician's strike that closed down Broadway, Pearlie Mae's comments went something like this: "It's good to see the orchestra back again. Right where they belong. Why do you think they call it a pit?" Ba-dum-pum), she would (as anecdote has it) turn upstage to the assembled company and sneer in a stage whisper, "How are your feet doin', gals? Your shoes pinchin' you yet?"
No, Pearlie Mae was NOT loved by her casts.

[Thetruth]

Posted: 10/23/03 at 12:34am

Excellent point Blackbirds. My college did Evita with a whole bunch of white kids. Not saying that anything is wrong with it but I do know that nobody thought twice about it not being consistent with holding true to the story. Also, what about all those white people "painted black" in the Aida chorus?

Posted: 10/23/03 at 1:24am

Blackbirds,
I am sorry that you feel that I am some horrid racist. I never ever said it was okay in any of my post (and I looked back) that I was okay with a non hispanic white woman to play EVITA. Please, If I am missing something in my own words.. please let me know.
I am sorry that you find my opinion to be something you can dismiss so offhandedly. I was under the assumption that we were able to discuss our opinions and tell how we feel. Foolish of me to think that this was the one post that was going to have incredible post after post of conversation.
Foolish Follish (and your opinion Racist) me.

[ORPHAN]

Posted: 10/23/03 at 2:14am

so true. just look at Aida and Lion king and the upcoming Disney HOOPZ. Black performers are viewed as a TYPE (slave, african, harlem hoofer, ball player, street kid, etc.) Like other non white performers maybe the producers say if we dont need a black actor why cast one in a role that a more acceptable white actor can play. Maybe the fear with so much money on the line that the largest audience for broadway (white tourist) will shy away from a show that has a black face (unless they see the word DISNEY) The sad truth is since the WIZ 30 years ago there hasn't been a mainstream black choreographer, director, leading man (other that Brian Stokes Mitchel), producer, stage manager, press agent, on and on. You cant name a choreographer who is black and working on broadway now that is criminal. I would love to see color blind casting always but color blind means colorblind!!!

[ORPHAN]

Posted: 10/23/03 at 2:23am

no that doesn't make you a racist at all. you are right. and i dont' think that extreme is what is being discussed. Consider that a show doesn't have to be all black for this asthetic to be in force. It's just a matter of seeing black performers being cast in any other roles than slave, ballplayer, african, harlem hoofer, street kid, etc. once we see that then we will really believe broadway to be color blind.

[ORPHAN]

Posted: 10/23/03 at 2:30am

why do you say that box office jon... pattie lu pone was not argentinian! everyone knows that the woman on stage is not the real person she's an actor. There's always a double standard. it's ok for steven speilberg to direct amistad and color purple but a sin against humanity for spike lee to direct shindler's list. You see when it's put in front of you its hard to argue with. An actor should get a role on stage because they can play the role not because of their color or ethnicity. now i agree it is always easier to put someone in a role who looks like the person (or can be made to look like the person) but that choice is closing the audience off from a performance from an actor who might really bring the house down but isn't even considered because of the skin color. I actually wouldn't mind seeing a white actor playing a role written for a black actor. As long as i get lost in the preformance because the actor is so damn good.

[ORPHAN]

Posted: 10/23/03 at 2:36am

in the movies it is not as practical to cast a white actor as a slave in a amistad. however we are all here discussing bway. theatre is supposed to shake things up mix things up tear things up. i saw white slaves in aida.

[ORPHAN]

Posted: 10/23/03 at 3:56am

balladeer
i wouldn't use the wiz as an example of what i think we really are meaning to debate. Why... because the black dorethy is just that. That is the point of that show to twist dorethy from a white girl in kansas to a black girl. The lingo is black in that musical (not to say a white, asian, or other performer couldn't play the role as long as they were believable/ not as black but able to speak the dialog/ i grew up with white kids who talk ebonics and slang) it's different from a black actor playing lincoln. there is no unique lingo to learn. If a black actor were to "ebonic-ize" the real character of lincoln we would all say "wrong"! (unless the author intended for lincolng to speak in slang and ebonics). It all depends on the demands of the role. A black actor playing Paul McCartney or desi arnez in a show on those subjects would probably be seen as an interesting novelty and not serious UNLESS the actor really pulled off the liverpool or cuban accents and made you forget that he is a black actor playing a non black real life person. It all depends on the prowess of the actor. but certianly no milliondollar production would consider a black actor asian or other actor for these parts FIRST! that's ok. but the original question that started the forum was really intended to discover the group's oppinion on the subject of Broadway musicals that feature black leading actors or shows that have a black twist (NOT DISNEY or old harlem revues) but someting special like say a black twist on the sound of music or a black actor playing a character that was written NON BLACK. Will the white bway tourist NOT go to the show because the show or the lead is black? or at least not consider it first over the standard shows?

[ORPHAN]

Posted: 10/23/03 at 4:08am

robbiej it shouldnt bother you to see a black actor playing ben frankling sing a song that is derogitory to blacks. if that is the character's position then it's legal. i don't know the song you mentioned but lets assume you feel if the actor's face is black he cant sing this song. i understand this is your knee jerk reaction but think about it. it's ben franklin saying the view point in the song not the black man playing the role. the audience quickly adusts to the casting choice and as long as the actor plays ben franklin and not OLE BLACK BEN then he will win the nights performance kudos.

[Thetruth]

Posted: 10/23/03 at 8:49am

In regard to the roles blacks are "restricted" to on broadway. I do think there's something valid there. I noticed something last year when seeing many of National Tours that stop at my college.

There is definitly a "formula" when it comes to putting black actors in musicals in general. I've seen a couple musicals where there is a black featured actor (most likely a big black woman) comes out sings a showstopper and then sort of dissapears or slides into a secondary postion. Examples are Jewel in Best Little Whorehouse, Motormouth Mabel from Hairspray(There was little hype around her even though I believe she had one of the best performances in the show)


For me, I think that that's one of the reasons the original poster posted.(If he'll allow me to get into his brain for a second). There really havnt been any real shows that feature black leads. I mean even AIDA, which features a black lead is still flanked by two white leads to counter balance.

There are a lot of stories within the African-American community that are rich for staging. Hopefully, we will see a spillover from the slight change in Hollywood. Lately, they've been putting out more family appropriate "black films" (Barbershop, Fighting Temptations) rather than the shoot 'em up hood films. I think that the newer films give a more well-rounded view ( I did't say they were perfect) of black life.


While this post is getting longer and longer I might as well talk about the "chitlin circuit". Some of these plays are bad... and some of the plays are excellent. Well, if you want to hear good, soulful, gospel/R&B singing you'll go to these. I've been attending them since I was a young child,so I know the genre pretty well (Yup, now it's a genre). These days I only go see plays by actor/playwright Tyler Perry. Some may have heard of his gun-toting, weed smokin, grandma character "Madea" that he plays but he is hilarious. Its a totally diffrent experience than being at a regular show, because he will ad lib a lot. I was at his show in Detroit and they were taping the show (Most of the shows can be found on tape, but because the shows are constantly evolving you wont get half the feel of being there. He changes so much stuff.)And before the show he came out and made a speech asking people not to get up in the front center sections. Jokingly, he warned us that there would be "repahcutions". Well, somebody got up in the middle of one of his lines. He STOPPED the show. THE WHOLE SHOW and came out into the audience and just started cracking jokes on them. It was so hilarious. Networks keep asking him to do a show but he's waiting for more creative control. I think that he will be a very powerful force in "black theater" and the entertainment. So, ya heard it hear first.


(The above was not proof-read)

[robbiej]

Posted: 10/23/03 at 11:03am

Orphan,

Ben Franklin does not sing the song 'Molasses to Rum to Slaves'. A white, southern slave owner who is arguing that the freeing of slaves would be disastrous to the Southern economy does.

Like I said, anyone can cast whomever they want in their shows. I really don't care. I'm saying that I, as a director, would more than likely choose to cast a white man in the role...unless i could justify to myself an interesting artistic/political reason to cast otherwise.

[WSS2]

Posted: 10/24/03 at 2:49pm

Hmmm..how interesting.

Two of our posters recently cried that we needed "black musicals" and that they should be limited to certain roles that do not include characters based on living people.

Yet when confronted with the fact that Evita was played by a white woman....they seem to have vanished. No defense from them at all. My..how odd.

Well, I guess one has to run and hide when confronted with the truth.

[robbiej]

Posted: 10/24/03 at 3:00pm

Let me start by saying that Ms. McDonald has indeed played Eva Peron and I would have been the first one to have bought a ticket to that had she not been like 16 and a nobody out in California.

I actually do have a question about Evita being played by a white woman. I don't know much about the woman herself, but I have a couple of friends from South America whose decent is European. There are many many many South Americans from the very 'white' regions of Europe ie Germany, Italy and France. Just being from South America does not mean someone would look 'latin', whatever that means.

That said, I have no idea what Eva Duarte's ethnic make-up is.

[WSS2]

Posted: 10/24/03 at 3:18pm

The real Evita was born in Los Toldes, a section of Buenos Aires, Argentina.

The point of this whole discussion is:

Some on this board have stated that minority performers CANNOT play a character in a show if the character is based on a real life person not of their ethnic background (blacks cannot play nojn balck characters).

Ms. LuPone is not from Argentina nor of hispanic descent. However, those posters seem to have no problem with her playing the role. But as John mentioned, he would not want to see Audra play the role cause she is not ethnically correct for the role (she is not hispanic).

See the rascism at work here? It's fine for the white woman to play a hispanic, but not the black woman.

Of course, neither of the posters who raised a ruckus about this have chosen to respond. Why? It's obvious.