Why the negative reaction to Spider-Man?

[marcblack]

Posted: 1/16/11 at 7:34am

I'm really flabbergasted as to the general attitude on this board regarding Spider-Man. As patrons of the theater, we have every right to share our opinions on the music, book, actors, production elements, etc. And if you don't like Spider-Man for those reasons, I'm not going to criticize. I may even agree with many of your points.
What I don't understand is why the majority has been so negative about this show since the beginning. Here's a group of risk takers, staging an extraordinarily unique production. Nothing similar has ever been attempted on Broadway. Shouldn't we supportive of those who push the envelope and go out on a limb?
Why is everyone trying to be an authority on the business side of Spider-Man? Yes it's unfortunate actors were injured and that shouldn't happen. But who are you to demand the show should close? Why do you care how many times the opening has been delayed (unless you've had a cancelled performance)? Virtually no one here has a financial stake in Spider-Man, so why is everyone so caught up in issues that are none of their business? If you're that upset with everything going on, don't buy a ticket. Don't go. But to act personally offended over all the behind the scenes drama, just makes you look ridiculous.
And for all the "authorities" on Spider-Man, I'm almost astonished no one actually talks about their real business plan. The producers aren't idiots. Michael Cohl is HUGELY successful. He knows it will take years for the show to recoup in New York. If Spider-Man does well, there will be subsequent productions globally and eventually an arena tour. That's where the REAL money is made. If Wicked closed on Broadway tomorrow, it would only be a small dent in the profits of the Wicked parent company. Spider-Man has enormous front end costs, with the hopes or rolling out subsequent productions. Granted, this is a huge gamble. But why does everyone act like Broadway is the only thing that matters? It's a piece of the puzzle.
This may be a bit of a rant... but I can't stand how many uninformed people make ridiculous statements. And I have NO affiliation with Spider-Man. I care about theater and believe in innovation. That's how we progress. And for those that write Spider-Man off as a tourist show (and therefore is not really innovative), Broadway is a COMMERCIAL industry. Art house films don't make the big screen, because the audience isn't large enough. While The Scottsboro Boys may have been a great show (I've never seen it, so I can't comment), productions of this type can rarely thrive on Broadway. Like art house films, they're mainly reserved for a certain demographic of people (not the general public, who are the main patrons of Broadway).
Updated On: 1/16/11 at 07:34 AM

[dramamama611]

Posted: 1/16/11 at 8:04am

1. MOST folks here are NOT asking/demanding that it close or even wish that it would. We'd like quality.

2. MOST of the folks that talk poorly of it HAVE seen it and do discuss it on its merit. (Or lack of it.)

3. The reason people "care" that they keep pushing back the opening is because they continue to SELL an unfinished product to a mostly UNsuspecting audience.

4. I don't think it's really all that "innovative". Bigger and more expensive doesn't mean innovative. We've had spectacle before -- just not at this cost.

5. Can't all things you said be turned right back on the supporters of the show? No one is telling you not to financially support it or to not see it.

ALL of us are entitled to our opinions -- not just the ones you agree with.

And yes, I've seen the show. I was gravely disappointed. In nearly every aspect.

(And adding double spaces between your paragraphs will make your entire post easier to read. It was quite difficult.)

Updated On: 1/16/11 at 08:04 AM

[HistoryBoy2]

Posted: 1/16/11 at 8:11am

I'm HistoryBoy2, and I approve dramamama's message.

[nexttotheheights]

Posted: 1/16/11 at 8:12am

^ ditto, dramamama

[Kalimba]

Posted: 1/16/11 at 8:30am

Dramamama, you said it a lot nicer than I would have.

I was just going to tell the OP to get over himself.

[dramamama611]

Posted: 1/16/11 at 8:31am

"Thou knowest the mask of night is on my face; Else would a maiden blush bepaint my cheek."

Ok -- it's not the mask of night, but the mask of discussion board anonymity.

[leefowler]

Posted: 1/16/11 at 9:56am

marcblack,

Have you actually seen it?

And who would ever want to read a discussion board made up of only positive comments?

[fingerlakessinger]

Posted: 1/16/11 at 10:16am

dramamamma hit it on the head...

[FindingNamo]

Posted: 1/16/11 at 10:25am

Ya know what leaves a black mark? Coal. And you know what rhymes with coal? Cohl.

So listen, Marc Black, everybody's going to have reactions to things, you can't control them, you can't get in their heads, you're going to have to just breathe and go on with your life. And in the history of HUGELY successful rock promoters, many of them lost their shirts by the end of their careers.

[dramarama3]

Posted: 1/16/11 at 10:40am

You're right, a lot of the "negative reaction" to Spider-Man IS poorly founded.

People who say the show should be closed are idiotic. Those who are legitimately annoyed at it's delayed opening, who haven't a good reason (as you mentioned), are idiotic.

We know this. You didn't need to tell us this.

However, you need to consider the other reason that the show's received a "negative reaction" on this board: It's not very good.

Although those who are considering whether or not to see the show should take a review/critique of a PREVIEW performance (which is NOT A FINISHED PRODUCT) with a grain of salt, understand that people who payed a significant sum of money to see a show that isn't very good, or at least is not currently in a good shape, have a right to criticize the show in that regard. At least in my books.

Updated On: 1/16/11 at 10:40 AM

[justafan2]

Posted: 1/16/11 at 11:21am

I like to read both the positive and negative before seeing a show, if possible. It helps me to be aware of what to expect. It sounds crazy, but I actually find I enjoy a show a bit more after reading scathing comments---I go into the theater, expecting nothing and am sometimes pleased I rec'd some enjoyment. The opposite is also true---if I enter a theater, expecting to love it---I'm usually a bit disappointed.

[Scott Briefer]

Posted: 1/16/11 at 11:51am

I agree that double line spacing between paragraphs would have helped marcblack's post, but otherwise, I think s/he makes some excellent points...

I am often disappointed by much of the commentary here. If I wasn't so lazy, I'd open my own site, or search for other forums/boards with an approach I would find more personally provocative. I am not looking for people to always agree with me, but I am looking for a different tone of posts.

[CandiceElyse]

Posted: 1/16/11 at 12:54pm

I think most demands for Spidey to close have subsided as the whole injury debacle has died down. Its true that there are a few individuals still expressing those sentiments, but certainly not to such an extreme.

I think other people, like myself, are skeptical that this show is even salvageable at this point. I have admittedly not seen it, though I would love to, to see for myself, but it just seems like delay after delay is just putting off the inevitable flop. I think people who express wish that the show close are doing so more at the angle "cut your losses and move on"

I personally would love to be proven wrong and they use this time successfully to turn it around, because the show had a ton of potential, but I just do not see it happening. The biggest question, with $65+ million invested (I personally think there is NO WAY they are still at this mark) ,when is it time to say enough is enough?

[Scarywarhol]

Posted: 1/16/11 at 1:05pm

I have a hard time understanding why people who want the show to close from a "cut your losses" angle would care. First of all, they obviously have no business with the show. But even from the angle of being a theatre fan: I would understand if there was an enormous show of any value hunting for a cavernous space, but whatever takes over the Foxwoods is almost always bound to be crap. Think of its entire post-Ragtime history. I'd take Spider-Man over every one of those shows, sincerely. Especially if there is actual work being done on it. Updated On: 1/16/11 at 01:05 PM

[CurtainPullDowner]

Posted: 1/16/11 at 1:10pm

My problem, not having or intending to see it, is the money being spent. It has to be over 70 million by now.
You could do 7 10 million dollar shows and maybe 2 of them would be amazing, 3 of them great and 2 could flop. And think of all the people employed by all those shows, hell, you could probably build an Off-Broadway Theatre or 2.
If someone wants to use their money that way, so be it.
But it pisses me off.

[Scarywarhol]

Posted: 1/16/11 at 1:18pm

But the people who are putting money into Spider-Man...the giant companies and the rock producers...are not the people who fund shows like The Scottsboro Boys or Bloody Bloody Andrew Jackson, however nice it would be if they did. It also seems that this show is employing nearly as many people as five or so regular shows would.

I understand the sentiment, but (and you aren't really doing it here CurtainPullDowner, this is sort of a tangent) it annoys me when people act as if there is a giant pot of Broadway money that all the producers are taking from, and money spent on, say, Shrek, is money that could just as easily be spent on a Merrily We Roll Along revival or something.

[marcblack]

Posted: 1/16/11 at 5:40pm

Yes, I have seen Spider-Man. My personal opinion is that the show was mediocre. I didn't hate it, but it wasn't fantastic either. A little about my background... I am a Broadway producer, who has never been involved with a show that DIDN'T profit. So I'm fairly qualified to offer opinions regarding the business of Broadway.

dramamama611- Yes, most folks aren't demanding that it close. And many discuss Spider-Man based on its creative merits (which is why I prefaced my message saying that is perfectly acceptable). However, MANY individuals discuss behind the scenes issues like they're a producer of Spider-Man, and know what's best. Those are the people I criticize. Do you really believe they're selling a product to an unsuspecting costumer? Michael Cohl comes out before every performance and discusses how the audience is about to see a preview. Beyond this board, I don't see too many members of the general public discussing how they've been "duped" by the producers. We can all argue what makes a show innovative... I believe that the flying and tech elements put Spider-Man in that category. And no, I don't believe any of my points can be turned on supporters of the show. The producers issuing a statement defending their position on delaying an opening (in response to negative sentiment), is a lot different than starting a thread demanding critics review the show immediately. Everyone is entitled to their opinions, one just looks ridiculous by acting personally offended by the show being delayed, stopping a performance etc.

Kalimba- I'd like to share a post of yours from a previous thread which you commented on. "This injury-inducing mess of a show (which I refuse to see) needs to be shut down, and Julie Taymor needs to be run out of town." And I need to get over myself? You have never seen the show, so you're not even equipped to offer opinions on the creative merits of Spider-Man. You're simply basing your views off other's opinions and news articles. Who are you to demand the show closes and Julie Taymor is run out of town? This is why I started my thread. Why does everyone think they're an authority on Spider-Man. The production is running at GREAT numbers, why would it close?? It makes no sense!

leefowler- Yes I have. I was disappointed by the show. No one wants to read a message board with all positive comments. I prefaced my message by saying everyone should be able to offer their opinions, regarding the creative merits of Spider-Man. I don't understand why posters get wrapped up in the behind the scenes issues, that don't affect their lives.

FindingNamo- I'm not sure what your point is by saying that Coal rhymes with Cohl. If my last name is evil, am I automatically a bad person? Also, can you please share the rock promoters you're referring to (that have lost their shirts)? I also invest in other live events (ex. concerts) and have encountered very few of these people, if any. Plus, Michael Cohl is a guy who has not lost his shirt... so I'm not even sure how your point is relevant? You're right I can't control what people think, and I'd never try. I'm just pointing out how many people look ridiculous making these grand statements on Spider-Man, that have nothing to do with the creative merits of the show.

dramarama3- I COMPLETELY agree. This is why I prefaced my post by saying everyone should be allowed to comment on the book, music, acting, tech elements, etc. Here's a quote from my post: "we have every right to share our opinions on the music, book, actors, production elements, etc. And if you don't like Spider-Man for those reasons, I'm not going to criticize. I may even agree with many of your points." I was discussing the people who demand the show should be closed, or act like they're authorities on everything but the creative elements of Spider-Man.

CandiceElyse- Do you read the Broadway grosses? Spider-Man has consistently sold out every performance since its first preview. It was the highest grossing show on Broadway last week (beating out Wicked). I'm not sure why anyone thinks this show is going to flop. The numbers are already proving its success. Even if the reviews are horrible, there's already so much negative sentiment on this show... the entire public is aware. So I'm not sure what losses there are to cut? Why close the highest grossing show on Broadway? And when 65m is on the line, the time to say "enough is enough" is not when the show is having economic success. I'm not trying to criticize you directly... But this is why I started my post. I don't understand why people make statements that go against factual information?

scarywarhol- I agree. Especially since virtually no one here has any business involvement with Spider-Man.

CurtainPullDowner- I guess I understand your frustration, but I really have to agree with scarywarhol. Your argument is a bit irrational. Money is not coming from one pot. Broadway is a commercial industry looking to make money. It's not about how many shows can be put up in a given season, or the diversity of the offerings. It's all about what will profit. And if enough people believed in Spider-Man to fund the production, it has every right to be there. And it's certainly not taking money from other potential Broadway shows.

[tazber]

Posted: 1/16/11 at 6:49pm

I don't get your confusion about the negative reaction.
It's really really simple. Allow me to break it down for you:

Crappy show = negative reaction.

Good show = positive reaction.

Wasn't that easy?

[eatlasagna]

Posted: 1/16/11 at 7:07pm

um... i think the poster is really just wondering why people who haven't seen the show have so much hatred for it or why people think they know what's really going on behind the scenes... that's my guess...

[marcblack]

Posted: 1/16/11 at 7:09pm

I don't understand why there has been a negative response to the show BEFORE it even started previews? It's like people have had a vendetta since the beginning... Surely no one can determine a show is bad without seeing a performance.

eastlasgna, that's fairly right on. Updated On: 1/16/11 at 07:09 PM

[Childcatcher]

Posted: 1/16/11 at 7:18pm

Marcblack, I love you !!! I totally enjoyed reading your posts ... Go you! x

[fingerlakessinger]

Posted: 1/16/11 at 7:29pm

Now I get what your saying Marc

I think why a lot of us have a disdain reaction to this show is because we are afraid that this show is going to make people think that this "defines" Broadway musicals.
And also, the idea of a "Spider-Man" musical on Broadway is really just something that turns people off right away. I was talking to a few of my teachers a few days ago and they are not Broadway fanatics but they do go and enjoy shows and such and when I mentioned this show they said they had no interest in seeing it. Mind you, they have not heard any of the music or anything, they just dont like the idea of seeing a musical about Spider Man

[CurtainPullDowner]

Posted: 1/16/11 at 11:43pm

marc and scarywarhol, of course you are right, I know the money doesn't come from one pot and these producers are not interested in building an Off-Bway theatre, but when I see that amount of money being thrown around it makes my brain explode.
And it brings up another question, why are these producers throwing money at this show?
Everyone seems to agree they won't see a penny back for several years, and the idea of touring a show that can't work out tech difficulties for 4 or 5 months and counting in a theatre restructured just for it seems shakey. Any "tour" is going to have to be a scaled down version.
Do the producers want to be associated with Taymor, Bono and the Edge so badly they will pour endless funds?
and marc I know it's just a typo (I make them constantly) but your comment about unsuspecting "costumers" gave me a laugh.

[willheim2]

Posted: 1/17/11 at 12:43am

who cares about spider man, its shows like sm,lion king,wicked, that bring the money into broadway for all the other shows, for the town,

they make the community vibrant

it is good for iatse, and fosters investmemt and gets people coming o ny to see theatre.

full of hubris and danger and scandel, it is just the kind of stuff that makes a grat musical.

i didn't like the show. norhing about it. so what.
Updated On: 1/17/11 at 12:43 AM

[PReeves2]

Posted: 1/17/11 at 4:40am

marcblack to answer you question simply is to say...

your show doesn't belong on broadway. it belongs in vegas or in an arena atmosphere. with that said, vegas has already done your show. there really is nothing new that is being proclaimed by the press and hype that you and your press department is presenting to the general public. the tricks in your show have been done before but not on broadway, i and everyone reading this board might agree about that fact, it seems to be common knowledge among the theater world.

my personal comment to you is get over yourself and the hype of the show which has been over played by you and your press department.

with that said I hope the cast is well and safe. it has become ridiculous that you have to resort to an injured cast member, who could have lost his life, to send out "good" press.

I have been a big fan of this production and honestly want it to do well only for the cast members that you put in serious danger every night that are so willing to make this production work. Are they getting a cut of the weekly gross? I'm guessing not. Julie, Bono, Michael, et al, have yet to show themselves on the flying stunts. this show shouldn't be considered "SAFE" until we get the clip of them flying over the Foxwoods Theater.