The Heckler: Why I'm allergic to Stephen Sondheim- Page 9

[Mr Roxy]

Posted: 3/23/15 at 12:03am

He sort of reminds me of Woody Allen

Both started with comedic pieces .For Sondheim it was Whistle and Funny Thing and they both turned serious. I would like to see him tackle another show like Forum. It might prove interesting.

He is supertalented but is not for everyone due to the subject matter he tackles. Follies is brilliant and this is coming from someone who saw the original.I still remember the Michael Bennett staging to this day.

[ljay889]

Posted: 3/23/15 at 12:03am

Because PS Classics tries to preserve as much dialogue as possible. Fast forward if you don't like it.

[Phillypinto]

Posted: 3/23/15 at 12:09am

I did

[HogansHero]

Posted: 3/23/15 at 12:15am

@Pinto-I think you know.

[Lovinbroadway2]

Posted: 3/23/15 at 12:47am

After Eight,
How in the world would you call all of Sondheim's works tuneless? Have you ever heard (For example) "Comedy Tonight"?



Updated On: 3/23/15 at 12:47 AM

[Musical Master]

Posted: 3/23/15 at 1:05am

Mr. Roxy, I sure hope that Bartlett Sher gets a chance to work on a production of FOLLIES. Can you imagine how wonderful it could be?

Charley Kringas Inc, that's exactly how I feel about After Eight's rude and unfounded hatred for Sondheim. He has got to be a troll, there is no other explanation for this behavior. If people don't care for Sondheim, that's good for them. But if they rant and rave about it like a madman repeatedly on and on and on, then I can't take them seriously.

[OlBlueEyes]

Posted: 3/23/15 at 1:21am

"And as a lyricist there is no dispute as to his genius."

Uh, did you even bother reading the article that prompted this thread? Or the posts in it?

The article? Oh, the article was not the reason for this topic. A number of the elders here got together and decided that they just had to have another dose of your sardonic wit.

I was actually referring to Sondheim's brilliance as a lyricist when not burdened by the additional task of having to write the music.

Tonight, tonight, the world is full of light
With suns and moons all over the place
Tonight, tonight the world is wild and bright
Going mad, shooting sparks into space

Today the world was just an address
A place for me to live in
No better than all right
But here you are and what was just a world is a star tonight.

Perhaps you're just not the romantic type.

[seahag2]

Posted: 3/23/15 at 1:23am

after reading 9 pages of comments just from today, I am exhausted. My favorite moment (in the woods...sorry I had to) was when Philly tried to convince us that the new generation of theatre fans were all like him. And that no one from that same generation has ever heard of Send in the Clowns. Thanks bww for the fun read before bed.

[ScottyDoesn'tKnow2]

Posted: 3/23/15 at 3:54am

Phillypinto, do you have any actual raw numbers to support your statement regarding song downloads? I'm asking with all sincerity. If you look at the iTunes (yes, I know that's far from the only measure), it doesn't give you actual number of downloads, but you'll see that the Judy Collins version's popularity bar is filled to the max while two of Barbara Streisand's versions put together make up the max (I'm assuming if one downloaded one they would not have downloaded the other since they're the same recording). Frank Sinatra's version is also very popular. "And I Am Telling You" is also very popular on iTunes, mostly the Jennifer Hudson and Glee versions. However, "Memory" from Cats is not using the same scale.

Of course, using that is problematic as we don't have actual numbers and iTunes is only one source (though the overwhelmingly most popular source). How about single sales?

None of that actually matters because I realized now that I shouldn't have even legitimized this argument. Even if "And I am Telling You" and "Memory" were more popular (not sure how to measure that anyway), that doesn't negate the fact that "Send in the Clowns" had a huge cultural impact and is well-known. I won't go into circles because it may just lead you to repeat your anecdotal evidence or trying to passive-aggressively minimize its impact but giving light criticisms under the guise that you like the song. We're not talking about whether you like, but whether it was "world-class" which I took to mean whether it captured mainstream attention and spread its influence. It certainly has.

Updated On: 3/23/15 at 03:54 AM

[After Eight]

Posted: 3/23/15 at 5:30am

"there is no other explanation for this behavior."

I love and care about the theatre.

There is no other explanation, and none other needed.

[tazber]

Posted: 3/23/15 at 6:02am

I love and care about the theatre.

With lovers like you who needs detractors?

[After Eight]

Posted: 3/23/15 at 6:51am

"I don't know that Rodgers ever wrote as fine a song about the aftermath of a shattered relationship with the punch of "Not a Day Goes By." "

Oh, get off it, will ya?

As if "day after day after day after day" repeated till you want to scream "uncle!" is an example of great lyric writing.

I don't suppose you've ever heard the song "It Never Entered My Mind" either.

[Dave19]

Posted: 3/23/15 at 8:05am

To me, many Sondheim melodies are so uninspired and completely exchangeable, like a random set of notes thrown on paper, just to have something to back up the oh-so interesting lyrics and repetition. At many times it's just like "I'm going to the supemarket today, it's fun, fun, nothing but fun, I like to buy...pause...a loaf of bread....pause....cause I love bread. It's fun and bliss. And bliss and fun. And bloss and fin. I have a grin. Oh dearie (pause) what a sin".

But, clearly some people find it wonderfully interesting.

I wish they would do a test like this, and pretend it is about "unreleased Sondheim material", I have a strong feeling that the outcomes will be quite the same:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4BlLX03OJRU





Updated On: 3/23/15 at 08:05 AM

[Lavieboheme3090]

Posted: 3/23/15 at 8:12am

"As if "day after day after day after day" repeated till you want to scream "uncle!" is an example of great lyric writing. "

Oh please thats like saying all Rodgers and Hammerstein did was repeat the word Oklahoma and then spell it. It's over simplification of a larger work.

[temms]

Posted: 3/23/15 at 10:36am

Dave19 - do you listen to much Indian music? I ask seriously. The only Indian music I really know is a bit of Ravi Shankar and the stuff George Harrison did with the Beatles. If you played me an album of Indian music I would probably think it sounded all the same - it's just rhythmless, melody-less droning with no discernible pitches. Worse, it evokes no particular emotion, it's just the same sound for hours with nothing happening.

I would of course be wrong. To someone who has grown up in that musical language, Indian music is infinitely expressive and full of variety and can evoke millions of things. But I don't speak that musical language, so I don't hear it.

I could sit here and argue passionately that Indian music is boring and one-note and cannot possibly convey anything of the range of emotion and beauty that Western music can. I could rail at a musician like Ravi Shankar and scream that he's a fraud, an idiot who has convinced millions that he's a genius when in fact everybody that's ever liked him is either a.) a moron who needs to be educated or b.) lying because they're afraid of what other people will think.

I understand, though, that Indian music is something I'm not conversant in. Intelligent people have written reams about the foundations and musical basis of Indian and millions of people the world over love that music and listen to it passionately. That doesn't mean that I must immediately start listening to ragas and loving them. It probably won't happen. But if I continued to insist that every single one of those people was wrong, that if only the Eastern Hemisphere would listen to me when I tell them that their music is worthless and that they should burn it all and start letting me tell them what they should like, then I would only be proving that I was the biggest of all.

Just because you don't personally care for something does not make it "bad", and just because you like something doesn't make it "good". I don't care for "Light In The Piazza" but I recognize the talents of all those involved, and I recognize that intelligent people were very affected by it. I wasn't. I conclude that "Piazza" is a good show that's simply not for me. I strangely enjoyed "Wedding Singer". I would never argue that "Wedding Singer" is a brilliant show, but it worked for me.

But the Sondheim-bashing is just so tiresome. You're not the lone voice of sanity in the wilderness. People genuinely love his stuff and it means a lot to them. You're not going to change their minds. Register your dislike, fine. But claiming that his melodies are merely random notes that go nowhere is factually incorrect, the same way my opinion that Indian ragas are random droning that goes nowhere is factually incorrect. This idea that not liking Sondheim makes you somehow intellectually superior is just insulting hogwash.

[After Eight]

Posted: 3/23/15 at 10:45am

"This idea that not liking Sondheim makes you somehow intellectually superior is just insulting hogwash."

What about the idea that liking Sondheim makes you somehow intellectually superior? That's the far more prevalent viewpoint here, there, and everywhere.

Do you find that insulting hogwash?

[Phillypinto]

Posted: 3/23/15 at 11:02am

i never said the song wasn't ONCE popular, i just don't believe it is very popular today. That has been my whole argument. And yes, if we are going to compare it to other popular musical theatre songs, i definitely believe other songs are still way more popular today then send in the clowns. You guys keep saying how many people have covered the song. Do you know how many people have covered memory or tonight from west side. I really don't don't think send in the clowns is nearly as popular with your average joe today, but thats just what i see. Obviously everybody has different experiences.
Why do i think this? Just go on youtube for crying out loud!

Updated On: 3/23/15 at 11:02 AM

[Dave19]

Posted: 3/23/15 at 11:07am

"it's just rhythmless, melody-less droning with no discernible pitches. Worse, it evokes no particular emotion, it's just the same sound for hours with nothing happening."

It could very well be just that. But that doesn't mean that some people can't think it's more. That's why I compared it to the art/painting clip, where they present an $10,- Ikea painting in an art gallery, and tell people it's from a famous painter and suddenly they see all kinds of things in it.

I also would like to add that people can be attracted to certain things, and see things te way they do, even if it is not the reality for most people, or even when it's in fact not there. It's all a matter of reference. For example, if someone who has never heard music in his life is suddenly exposed to Nicki Minaj' Anaconda. He is probably overwhelmed by the melody. If someone is familiar with all kinds of music, probably not so much.

Another thing is, that I think good music is formed by 3 things. Excellent melodies that go somewhere, excellent lyrics that go somewhere, and the rare ability of combining them, so that you never feel like a note or a word comes out of the blue. That makes it craftmanship and that makes it genius. My problem with Sondheim is the melodies, they seem to come so out of the blue, that it seems that even the most experienced singers can't remember them, that tells me something about how well they "click" if you will. The lyrics often have silly repetitions and many 1-liners. And then to top it off, the music and the lyrics do nothing for eachother. Especially because I know so much music where these things are actually better connected, I can't take this seriously.

Every time it tends to go somewhere it is interrupted by a disjointed chord, repetition or pause. There are too many great composers to mention who understand this perfectly, from Boublil & Schonberg to Elton John to many other composers of pop or theatre music. For example, Elton John has the ability to build a song emotionally, start with an introduction, then perfectly knows how to make the music and lyrics match to take the listener on a journey, you fly higher and higher (emotion wise), and then at the right moment the refrain starts, that is often glorious in it's melody and matching lyrics, and then the refrain ends, and it feels like a beautiful kind of closure of that particular little story, topped off with a bow, and then we are not even in the second verse yet, which takes the listener to another place again, but it is never out of the blue, or the same as step 1, or a repetition. This is how I listen to music. When I compare that to something like "Send in the clowns". The first 2 lines have the same melody, a melody which is too simple and basic (uninteresting) for my taste. Then the "send in the clowns" sentence is repeated several times. Which doesn't add anything. Then there is this "bridge" that also leads to nowhere "sure of my lines, no one is there". And then it starts all over again with "don't you love farce". While the part before didn't go anywhere. It's like stopping a show, and then start over again for no reason. This combined with the repetition and out of the blue melodies makes it very uninteresting to me.






Updated On: 3/23/15 at 11:07 AM

[indytallguy]

Posted: 3/23/15 at 11:14am

YouTube: The Official Arbiter of Musical Taste Since ____ (never)

[icecreambenjamin]

Posted: 3/23/15 at 11:47am

I've always felt that Sondheim writes music to sound like someone speaking or thinking. He doesn't just write music to be pretty. If you ever watch him compose, he writes every note for a reason. If you don't like that, that's ok. It's not like I JUST like Sondheim. Sometimes I feel tired of the things he writes so I go and I listen to something that is lighter on the ears.
I agree that his music can be hard to listen to and I've found that you have to "get" the point of the show in order to like the music.

[Fantod]

Posted: 3/23/15 at 12:17pm

Phillypinto, at icecreambenjamin's "high art" school, they seem to have neglected to teach him manners.

Despite the fighting, I actually think this is a pretty interesting thread.

[icecreambenjamin]

Posted: 3/23/15 at 12:23pm

"High art school"
That's funny.

Fantod
did you happen to read the absolutely ignorant statements that Phillypinto was spewing all over this board. I'm sorry if I offended you, Mother Teresa.

[HogansHero]

Posted: 3/23/15 at 12:52pm

After Eight: "I love and care about the theatre."

Based only on what you have said here, I think the only way that is true is if you define theatre narcissistically. i.e., as existing solely to pander to your own (arguably antiquated) tastes. That evinces something that, at its core, is antithetical to a legitimate love and care about the theatre, because it treats theatre as a static rather than dynamic art form. I do not think it is any more right for someone to disparage you or anyone else for disliking Sondheim, any more than it is right for you to disparage anyone who adores his work. I think most of what I have read along the latter lines is in reaction to your seemingly "superior" sense of what makes theatre good for everyone. Such statements by you, even though manifestly borne of an insecurity about the "courage of your own convictions, is an understandable kneejerk reaction. Were you to post something simply expressing your tastes, and not pretending that your tastes are anything more than just that, I think a more intelligent discussion would obtain. But as it stands, treating theatre as something frozen in time does not admit of a love of theatre, or any care for it as an art form, just a insalubrious false love of self.

[tazber]

Posted: 3/23/15 at 12:54pm

This entire thread is a narcissists wet dream.

[themysteriousgrowl]

Posted: 3/23/15 at 12:56pm

“...because it treats theatre as a static rather than dynamic art form.”

Surely this isn’t news to anyone? This has always been the root of his entire philosophy (and pathology) – that the apotheosis of style and form in American Musical Theater occurred during his formative years.

I mean, talk about a coincidence!

Updated On: 3/23/15 at 12:56 PM