Bandstand or Miss Saigon - Page 5

[BroadwayConcierge]

Posted: 6/21/17 at 9:11pm

Lost a lot of respect for you with these past few posts, GeorgeandDot.

Updated On: 6/21/17 at 09:11 PM

[GeorgeandDot]

Posted: 6/21/17 at 9:22pm

ArtMan said: "No honey, ANYONE that dislikes someone based on their race is a racist.  Being in a position of power has absolutely nothing to do with it.  By starting your response immediately with " Sorry I injured your white fragility" defines your character.  You have absolutely no idea what race i am.  In the real world, you may be a nice, lovable person....but on this thread you come across like an ASS.

 

I don't dislike anyone for their race.  I dislike them for their ignorance.  You seem to be a white person who doesn't understand what it feels like to be in my shoes.  If you were in my position, you would understand.  I am not being an ass for saying that Dave cannot and will not tell me how to feel about Asian stereotypes in a show.  This personally offends me.  If an Asian person were saying this to me, I would respect their opinion because they have my experience.  

Also, white fragility refers to the idea that white people get defensive when they are informed that they're opinion is an ignorant one.

Also, BC, you should not lose respect for me because I am standing up for my people because I am being told who I am by someone that does not know my story.

I have nothing against anyone for being white.  I do have something against people who are ignorant.

 

[ArtMan]

Posted: 6/21/17 at 9:34pm

Again....you're assuming I'm white.  No, I wouldn't want to be in your shoes.  You seem to live life with an attitude that everybody owes you something. At least, that is how you are coming across.  And on that note, I just took an ambien and am going to sleep.  Good night.

[GeorgeandDot]

Posted: 6/21/17 at 9:45pm

No owes me anything, but no non-Asian can tell me that they know more about my culture than me.  That's straight up racist and disrespectful to my people and I don't put up with that ****.

Updated On: 6/21/17 at 09:45 PM

[poisonivy2]

Posted: 6/21/17 at 9:48pm

As someone who is of Asian heritage just want to say ...

You do realize Asia is a continent and not a race/ethnicity right?

[GeorgeandDot]

Posted: 6/21/17 at 10:00pm

poisonivy2 said: "As someone who is of Asian heritage just want to say ...

You do realize Asia is a continent and not a race/ethnicity right?

Yes of course, but I think that much of what I'm talking about applies to anyone of any Asian heritage.  I happen to be Vietnamese and black.  

What I'm saying is that they took an opera set in Japan and set it in Vietnam since apparently Asia is Asia in the eyes of Cameron Mackintosh.  They then jammed it full of unlikable and distasteful stereotypes and cast a white leading man.  This show certainly has a messy history and it's absurd to ignore this fact.  The show is in better shape now with an actual Asian man in the lead role, but those negative stereotypes are still present.  I'm just sick of Asian women being portrayed as strippers or basically human sex toys in almost everything.  Even, South Pacific, which I adore, has instances of this.  I don't know why Kim has to be a stripper.  Yes, there were a lot of strippers in Vietnam at the time and that piece of history shouldn't be ignored, but I have a problem with it being such a huge part of Miss Saigon.

 

[poisonivy2]

Posted: 6/21/17 at 10:15pm

GeorgeandDot said: "poisonivy2 said: "As someone who is of Asian heritage just want to say ...

You do realize Asia is a continent and not a race/ethnicity right?

Yes of course, but I think that much of what I'm talking about applies to anyone of any Asian heritage.  I happen to be Vietnamese and black.  

What I'm saying is that they took an opera set in Japan and set it in Vietnam since apparently Asia is Asia in the eyes of Cameron Mackintosh.  They then jammed it full of unlikable and distasteful stereotypes and cast a white leading man.  This show certainly has a messy history and it's absurd to ignore this fact.  The show is in better shape now with an actual Asian man in the lead role, but those negative stereotypes are still present.  I'm just sick of Asian women being portrayed as strippers or basically human sex toys in almost everything.  Even, South Pacific, which I adore, has instances of this.  I don't know why Kim has to be a stripper.  Yes, there were a lot of strippers in Vietnam at the time and that piece of history shouldn't be ignored, but I have a problem with it being such a huge part of Miss Saigon.
 

"

Um, can't believe I'm jumping into this but ... it's equally ignorant to turn a blind eye to the fact that in many Asian countries the sex trade industry continues to be considered the only option by many girls, and that sex trafficking is still rampant. 

Miss Saigon is an abstract, generic adaptation of Madama Butterfly, and both are works that are very much written with the Western lens (agree with you there). But watch the movies of Kenji Mizoguchi (whose sister was sold into a geisha house), or the documentary Daughter from Danang (which chronicles an Amerasian daughter's disastrous reunion with her Vietnamese birth mom), and maybe you would realize that this issue is way more complex than Miss Saigon, your own personal feelings, or a sense of "defending your people."

[A0326T]

Posted: 6/21/17 at 10:17pm

But Cio Cio San (madama Butterfly) is a geisha ... ... Similar to Kim in Saigon. So there is a similarity  of these two works. Also in M Butterfky I think he is a dancer. I see where you are coming from. I'm Asian too. But if they adapt The Joy Luck Club into a musical? there you will find strong Asian characters. 

[GeorgeandDot]

Posted: 6/21/17 at 10:27pm

I am aware that sex trafficking is a huge problem over there, but all I'm trying to say is that Dave, a white male, cannot tell me, a Vietnamese woman, how to feel about Asian stereotypes.  I just don't enjoy the exploitation of Asian women being strippers.

A0326T, yeah I know that they were just following the plot of M.B., but I still don't understand why they couldn't just write an original musical about a Vietnamese mother during the war, instead of adapting a western opera about a Japanese woman

Updated On: 6/21/17 at 10:27 PM

[4getmenot]

Posted: 6/21/17 at 11:12pm

"
Um, can't believe I'm jumping into this

"

I can't believe I'm jumping into this either.  I am aware of the general issue about Asian stereotypes that GeorgeandDot is referring to but for this Asian-American woman, it's mostly an abstract issue rather than one that has a practical effect on my day-to-day life.  What I mean is that the average Broadway audience member who lives in New York or other big city would be exposed to many Asian-American women who are doctors, engineers, lawyers, investment bankers, journalists, etc.  I doubt that seeing one three hour show about a subservient woman who needs a strong American GI to rescue her will do much to erode their interactions with independent, successful Asian-American women day-in and day-out.

Also, I am not sure why the Kim-Chris pairing bothers GeorgeandDot so much.  Such kinds of relationships are prevalent today in New York City, so it shouldn't be a shock that they were also present back in the 1970s when the sociopolitical and economic forces were far more complex.  If anything, with the way they wrote the book, Chris' attraction to Kim arose from their shared torment and loss.  In this day and age of "yellow fever", it seems to be far more substantive than the kind of attraction shown by many of the Caucasian guys that I date today.

When I watched the show, none of the previous opinion pieces I read about the racial insensitivities entered my mind.  What gripped me was the lush orchestrations, the majestic sets, captivating choreography and magnetic performances from all the leads.  If you were to force me to do an analysis from Asian perspective, I would reflect upon how far this Asian-American College Professor has come in one-and-half generations and how grateful I am for show to educate us about the exploitation of Asian women in those times; it helps to provide context for the the significance of our accomplishments.

In any case, back to the original question - I recommend Miss Saigon.  Bandstand was a great show as well but I just think Miss Saigon (with Eva not the alternate on, ideally) was just an exquisite show.  Clearly, it wasn't perfectly done in terms of social commentary.  But relative to the standard I normally hold for a 3-hour musical, it was sublime.

[Robbie2]

Posted: 6/21/17 at 11:15pm

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DISCOUNT till 9/3/17

Code: BDMAIL525

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Tuesday-Friday

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[hork]

Posted: 6/21/17 at 11:23pm

GeorgeandDot said:

Also, POC can't be racist by definition.  You have be in a position of power to be racist.  A POC can be prejudiced, but they can't be racist.  
 

I wish people would stop saying this. It's flat-out incorrect and doesn't help your argument or your cause. You can't just make up a new definition for the word "racist." POC do not have a "Get out of racism free" card.

 

[GeorgeandDot]

Posted: 6/21/17 at 11:55pm

 Being prejudiced is just as bad as being racist it's just that, by the proper definition of the word, POC can't be "racist."  In this modern America, POC are certainly not in any sort of power and you have to be in a position of power to be racist.

Also, I want to end this discussion.  I have made my point to Dave.  I said that I still enjoy Miss Saigon and it was my recommendation to the OP.  Basically, Saigon is based on a lot of Vietnamese stereotypes and it has it's problems, but it's still a great show with brilliant performances by Eva Noblezada and Jon Jon Briones.  Also, the score is lush and gorgeous and the set is pretty great.  It's a classic and I think it's definitely worth seeing.  I didn't want this to turn into the discussion that it did.  I thought that we would be able to discuss this with someone claiming that my opinion wasn't valid even though I am a Vietnamese woman and they are not.  That's how the world works though.  White men have always been speaking for women and POC, I thought that by 2017, we would be open and able to put ourselves into the shoes of others and let them speak for themselves.  I thought that maybe my opinion would be respected at this point, but I guess this is Trump's America!

Updated On: 6/21/17 at 11:55 PM

[hork]

Posted: 6/22/17 at 12:21am

GeorgeandDot said: " Being prejudiced is just as bad as being racist it's just that, by the proper definition of the word, POC can't be "racist."  In this modern America, POC are certainly not in any sort of power and you have to be in a position of power to be racist.
 

I don't want to get into a semantic argument, but, no. It's a stipulative definition, not the proper definition. The original, dictionary definition is the "proper" definition, as it is with every other word. But someone somewhere down the line decided it referred to a system of power rather than a belief, and people have been regurgitating that "only white people can be racist" nonsense ever since. But it's simply not true. Not that it really matters, since it's just a word, and words only have the power we give them. But I don't see why the word needs to be co-opted for a new purpose when there are perfectly good phrases that describe what you're talking about.

[BroadwayConcierge]

Posted: 6/22/17 at 12:23am

Thank you, hork.

[Dave28282]

Posted: 6/22/17 at 5:30am

GeorgeandDot, if these things offend you, you have to work on your personal issues first but blaming the show is not fair. Because 1. Sex workers were a huge part of that time and place, you would like to deny them too? Being confronted is a big part of the arts. And 2. Miss Saigon goes way beyond these stereotypes. Every audience member in their right mind will see Kim as a human character, because that's how the show is written. You can scream the words "racism" and "POC" and "stereotypes" on fora till the end of your days, but yes, thinking like that makes you the racist. Let us know when you decide to see people too. Because there will always be characters, jobs and settings in shows that you don't like. Putting your head in the sand is not the solution and won't make you a better person. History and suppression should not be forgotten but told in stories and arts should always be confronting.

Also, a specific show, about specific people in a specific time has nothing to do with you, your insecurities or how you would like to present yourself in this day and age, so could you please stop hanging your identity on that? Really, you need to work on that and see these a 2 separate things. That's important for a happy life. You can't just erase everything you don't like and expect the world to obey you. Then we end up with shows where everything is boring and perfect.

Updated On: 6/22/17 at 05:30 AM

[GeorgeandDot]

Posted: 6/22/17 at 5:44am

^ Honey, I have nothing more to say to you.  You are both right and wrong in what you just said.  I don't feel like explaining anything further to you, but I hope that when someone tells you that something is offensive to them, you don't tell them that they have a personal problem.  You would never tell a black person to not be offended by Al Jolson's blackface performance of Mammy in the Jazz singer because it is a part of history and we shouldn't forget it.  It has negative and hateful roots and the person who is offended should be allowed to be offended.  Miss Saigon was born in total lack of respect for Vietnamese culture due to the casting of Jonathan Pryce as the engineer.  He is a great performer, but his casting in Saigon has always caused me to kind of loathe Cameron Mackintosh and has tarnished my opinion of the show.  This was the late 80's.  It was unacceptable to put yellowface on a Broadway stage.  Yes, my main problem with the show may be due to my personal feelings, but they are still valid issues.  It's time that POC told their own stories, through their own eyes and in a way that doesn't make their culture look monstrous.

[Dave28282]

Posted: 6/22/17 at 6:07am

GeorgeandDot said: " when someone tells you that something is offensive to them, you don't tell them that they have a personal problem."

But I really think you have a personal problem. When people were sending death threats to Disney when they were making the Princess and the frog because Tiana was supposed to be a maid in the first script (just like cinderella and Snowwhite) I said those people had a problem too. They clearly couldn't see the black character as a person, but focused on race. You do the same thing here. 

The fact that you clearly like to deny/don't want to see strippers is one thing, but the fact you can't look past that and see them as people is another.

GeorgeandDot said: "Miss Saigon was born in total lack of respect for Vietnamese culture due to the casting of Jonathan Pryce as the engineer.  He is a great performer, but his casting in Saigon has always caused me to kind of loathe Cameron Mackintosh and has tarnished my opinion of the show. Yes, my main problem with the show may be due to my personal feelings, but they are still valid issues. "

These are not valid issues. 1989 is not 2017.  Society was different and issues have been solved. This revival show has nothing to do with that so it's very strange that you keep hammering on this. It has nothing to do with the show substantively.

GeorgeandDot said: " it's time that POC told their own stories, through their own eyes"

Fine. But has also nothing to do with this show.



 

Updated On: 6/22/17 at 06:07 AM

[Lot666]

Posted: 6/22/17 at 8:48am

hork said: "GeorgeandDot said: Also, POC can't be racist by definition.  You have be in a position of power to be racist.  A POC can be prejudiced, but they can't be racist.  
 
I wish people would stop saying this. It's flat-out incorrect and doesn't help your argument or your cause. You can't just make up a new definition for the word "racist." POC do not have a "Get out of racism free" card."

I was rather taken aback by that assertion as well, until I realized that it came from the same person who, over in the "best songs in come from away?" thread, declared that "it is a rule that if you are using the word 'suddenly,' [in lyrics] your piece is probably not as well written as it could be".

Updated On: 6/22/17 at 08:48 AM

[OlBlueEyes]

Posted: 6/22/17 at 9:53am

Robbie2 said: "BANDSTAND

DISCOUNT till 9/3/17

Code: BDMAIL525

Can we take this outside, please.

I decided last minute to get a ticket for one of the weekend matinees, and I couldn't believe the number of seats that were still available, under the Telecharge offer or just in general. At least half I would say. And yet almost all of these will be filled when the curtain rises in three days?

It's a mystery to me.

[TrChSpHa]

Posted: 6/22/17 at 10:23am

Dave28282 said: "Being an Asian woman doesn't give her the right to blame a show for having a character having a profession that does not suit her. (she literally says, why can't she be a normal girl). Me as a gay person prefer to see handsome, manly, perfect, kind, guys in all shows, movies and tv series too. Not gonna happen. So I can complain about it and blame every movie or show or get over myself."

 

Jesus Christ, the white privilege and ignorance is strong with this one, lmao. Dude, get over yourself. If a woman of color is telling you why she's critical of the thematic elements in the show, stop trying to dismiss her concerns as "complaints." This is how we address the lack of roles for people of color, this is how we make progress.

Yes, Miss Saigon features one of the most complex Asian heroines in musical theatre, however its themes of Orientalism, as well as its history of yellowface, are problematic and should be discussed. Pointing that out isn't racist. It's sad that after such a diverse 16-17 Broadway season, people of color wanting to see positive represenations of themselves onstage is an issue for you.

And gtfo of here with that "humans vs. color" nonsense. Your white privilege allows you to ignore race just because talking about it makes you uncomfortable.

Back to the topic:

See Miss Saigon for Jon Jon and Eva's brilliant performances, and a great score.

See Bandstand (also problematic for reasons) for Corey Cott's performance, high-energy Tony-winning choreography set to great swing and jazz music.

I was moved by both.

[Addipia94]

Posted: 6/22/17 at 11:01am

OlBlueEyes said: "Can we take this outside, please."

 

This ^

As I reiterated in my last post, start a new thread for this conversation/feud, and let's get OP thread back on track - please!

 

Updated On: 6/22/17 at 11:01 AM

[bwayandstuff]

Posted: 6/22/17 at 11:36am

I had no expectations going into either of these shows but ended up really enjoying both of them. They're very different but if I was going to bring a friend to see one of them with me I would pick Bandstand!

[broadwaysfguy]

Posted: 6/22/17 at 1:53pm

agree with above posters to take the sideshow to another thread and honor and support the OP's original request.

these are two totally completely different shows 

Miss Saigon's a stronger overall show and you should choose it if you liked phantom, wicked, Les mis  and other "big show with bigs sets and big songs musical"

Bandstands a better call if you enjoyed beautiful, jersey boys, and other contemporary musicals and enjoy WW2 era big band music and fantastic choreography and dancing in your musicals

[Dave28282]

Posted: 6/22/17 at 5:23pm

TrChSpHa said: "stop trying to dismiss her concerns as "complaints." This is how we address the lack of roles for people of color, this is how we make progress."

It's like saying "I find Dreamgirls offensive because black people are being subordinated because white people are trying to steal the song "cadillac car" in the show ".  You can complain to the moon and back, but this is storytelling and no reason to be offended. This is how you decline progress. Because your focus lies on racial separation of people/roles/actors.

TrChSpHa said: "Miss Saigon features one of the most complex Asian heroines in musical theatre"

I agree. And that is something we should cherish. 

I also agree that we should stay on topic from now on.

Miss Saigon all the way, one of the best written shows ever made. Can't say the same for Bandstand.

 


 

Updated On: 6/22/17 at 05:23 PM