Young Jean Lee v/s Jeremy Harris- Page 2

[joevitus]

Posted: 6/10/20 at 8:47pm

To have her bow and act subserviently, and literally emulate a geisha, is to use pretty recognizable racist tropes. How does one pretend it is anything else? 

Surely there was a way to satirize her, to make her as awful or irrelevant as he wanted, without going in that direction? I have no idea how awful she is. But as awful as she might well be, Harris doesn't just demean her with that kind of writing, he demeans all Asians. 

 

[KJisgroovy]

Posted: 6/10/20 at 9:24pm

"To have her bow and act subserviently, and literally emulate a geisha, is to use pretty recognizable racist tropes. How does one pretend it is anything else? 

Surely there was a way to satirize her, to make her as awful or irrelevant as he wanted, without going in that direction? I have no idea how awful she is. But as awful as she might well be, Harris doesn't just demean her with that kind of writing, he demeans all Asians. "
 

Well said!

[phan24]

Posted: 6/10/20 at 9:32pm

joevitus said: "To haveher bow and actsubserviently, andliterally emulateageisha, is to use pretty recognizableracist tropes.How does one pretend it is anything else?

Surely there was a way to satirize her, to make her as awful or irrelevant as he wanted,without going in that direction? I have no idea how awful she is. But as awful as she might well be, Harris doesn't just demean her with that kind of writing, he demeansall Asians.

"

Harris did not write that racist play about a geisha, it’s a separate play that she mentioned by a white playwright that started this whole thing.

[joevitus]

Posted: 6/10/20 at 9:53pm

Huge apology for ascribing it to the wrong person. 

[KJisgroovy]

Posted: 6/10/20 at 10:06pm

Oof! I hadn't read Yell and assumed that's where the description was being pulled from. That said, it was a great articulation of why stereotypes are so harmful even when they are allegedly being used for a purpose.

[dexter3]

Posted: 6/10/20 at 10:12pm

It's almost like Jeremy knows he messed up and instead of apologizing, he decides to go on an enormous diatribe in order to deflect. Sounds like he was mistreated at Yale...but nonetheless...own up and apologize.

[rougeduck]

Posted: 6/10/20 at 10:20pm

Ok but who wrote the play Young Jean Lee posted about?

[Alex Kulak2]

Posted: 6/10/20 at 10:42pm

rougeduck said: "Ok but who wrote the play Young Jean Lee posted about?"

She said in the replies that it had a very short run and didn't get any buzz critically. The writer has since apologized and she forgave him, so I don't think she's interested in opening old wounds by saying who it was.

[HogansHero]

Posted: 6/10/20 at 11:12pm

dexter3 said: "It's almost like Jeremy knows he messed up and instead of apologizing, he decides to go on an enormous diatribe in order to deflect. Sounds like he was mistreated at Yale...but nonetheless...own up and apologize."

Can you explain what you are talking about?

What was the mess up?

[joevitus]

Posted: 6/10/20 at 11:24pm

KJisgroovy said: "Oof! I hadn't read Yell and assumed that's where the description was being pulled from. That said, it was a great articulation of why stereotypes are so harmful even when they are allegedly being used for a purpose."

I really appreciate that. Thank you.

[The Distinctive Baritone]

Posted: 6/11/20 at 4:38pm

Having been through a rigorous MFA conservatory program myself, I’m not sure Jeremy’s treatment was that unique...and I’m white. Basically, they tell you in one on one sessions why you suck, and if you don’t say “Thank you sir may I have another” you’re told you’re “difficult” and “unwilling to receive feedback.” A lot of drama schools are kind of abusive that way.

[SouthernCakes]

Posted: 6/11/20 at 4:58pm

I mean the real entertainment world is ruthless. My friend was passed by casting because he had a “non union look.” Oof.

[GavestonPS]

Posted: 6/11/20 at 10:57pm

The Distinctive Baritone said: "Having been through a rigorous MFA conservatory program myself, I’m not sure Jeremy’s treatment was that unique...and I’m white. Basically, they tell you in one on one sessions why you suck, and if you don’t say “Thank you sir may I have another” you’re told you’re “difficult” and “unwilling to receive feedback.” A lot of drama schools are kind of abusive that way."

Yep, they sure are. And let me just add that one is usually getting conflicting criticism, so simply rewriting in the face of criticism is not as easy as it might appear. I'm speaking from personal experience, and I have to admit I was treated comparatively well by my MFA program--but it was a battle for a lot of reasons.

[GavestonPS]

Posted: 6/11/20 at 11:18pm

The Distinctive Baritone said: "Having been through a rigorous MFA conservatory program myself, I’m not sure Jeremy’s treatment was that unique...and I’m white. Basically, they tell you in one on one sessions why you suck, and if you don’t say “Thank you sir may I have another” you’re told you’re “difficult” and “unwilling to receive feedback.” A lot of drama schools are kind of abusive that way."

This is the problem I have with a number of threads here in the past few weeks. I can't find the difference between the allegedly racist behavior and the ****ty treatment experienced by artists of all colors in academia, at resident theaters, in Hollywood and on Broadway.

And I've been to more playwright symposia than I can count! I've had a subscription to the Dramatist Guild Quarterly for decades! I've also worked as a dramaturg quite a bit, so I have that perspective as well.

Now, I can certainly understand why artists of color--facing overt and covert racist treatment everywhere and every day--may assume their lousy treatment in the theater is a result of their skin color. But so far, the examples I've read are eerily similar to what I and every playwright has endured.

This is not to say there is no racism in the theater. I *ASSUME* there is racism in some form or another in all areas of American life; it is ingrained in the culture. But threatening to "$hit in your wig" is cruel, certainly, but it is not ipso facto racist. I don't know how we hope to eradicate racism if we can't even identify it.

I want to be clear here, before the screaming starts: I am NOT saying BIPOC artists are overreacting or playing some sort of "card". But most theater is "people behaving badly" at some point or another. Whether they are doing so out of racism requires a lot of thought and self-reflection, not something liable to be found on social media.

Updated On: 6/12/20 at 11:18 PM

[Sally Durant Plummer]

Posted: 6/11/20 at 11:37pm

I’ll just say that plenty of my (undergrad) peers took classes from Young Jean Lee (both as actors and playwrights) and none of them have one word of praise for her.

Also, right after the 2016 election, she started her class with the phrase, “Let’s talk about 11/9” and everyone just assumed she meant 9/11 until someone had the balls to ask her to explain what the hell she was taking about. I think of that when I need a good laugh.

Updated On: 6/12/20 at 11:37 PM

[Sally Durant Plummer]

Posted: 6/11/20 at 11:42pm

As for the play in question, I vaguely remember someone telling me about the scene in question - if I recall correctly, it was a professional in the mainstream New York theatre scene. Anyway, the sentiment they presented was that it was proof of how unpleasant Lee was to work with.

[GavestonPS]

Posted: 6/12/20 at 12:01am

Sally Durant Plummer said: "As for the play in question, I vaguely remember someone telling me about the scene in question - if I recall correctly, it was a professional in the mainstream New York theatre scene. Anyway, the sentiment they presented was that it was proof of how unpleasant Lee was to work with."

Because he's white, I guess, nobody has addressed the vicious portrayal of Oskar Eustis "dropping his pants". Now I haven't seen Oskar since he left L.A. to head up Trinity Theatre in Providence 20 years ago; but I have several female friends who worked for him in California, and none of them described him as a womanizer. In any event, he is married now and whatever the "dropping his pants" business is supposed to mean, Oskar is an actual human being who deserves either (a) a detailed and honest examination of his alleged misbehavior, or (b) anonymity.

YJL is guilty of reproducing and broadcasting that part of the script, even though she didn't write it in the first place. Doesn't help her case in my eyes.

[VintageSnarker]

Posted: 6/12/20 at 12:28am

GavestonPS said: Now, I can certainly understand why artists of color--facing overt and covert racist treatment everywhere and every day--may assume their lousy treatment in the theater is a result of their skin color. But so far, the examples I've read are eerily similar to what I and every playwright has endured.

This is not to say there is no racism in the theater. I *ASSUME* there is racism in some form or another in all areas of American life; it is ingrained in the culture. But threatening to "$hit in your wig" is cruel, certainly, but it is not ipso facto racist. I don't know how we hope to eradicate racism if we can't even identify it."

I think Griffin Matthews made a very reasonable argument. However, I agree that if Samantha's evidence is limited to the "s**t in your wig" comment, it doesn't make a strong case. Lea clearly insulted and demeaned her multiple times. And she was definitely not shy about making transphobic comments. Samantha's inability to remember another definitively racist microaggression suggests that there wasn't one. Lea Michele was awful to everyone.

[Sally Durant Plummer]

Posted: 6/12/20 at 12:41am

Apparently Lee considers this play a reason she hasn't produced a "new" play since 2013: "After that show, I haven't produced a new play since. There are many reasons for this, but all the different ways one gets treated like garbage as a woman of color in the industry is definitely one of them."

Updated On: 6/12/20 at 12:41 AM

[Sally Durant Plummer]

Posted: 6/12/20 at 2:39am

Actually, Lee has a nasty little habit of taking phrase or even sentences said in her class and using them verbatim in her work. I had multiple friends in her class tell me how shocked they were when they saw the show and realized that she had just taken things they said - often personal things said under the pretense of privacy and emotional rawness that theatre schools are infamous for - and used them in her work with no credit.

If I recall correctly, there might have been a controversy during “The Shipment” because so much of the play was pulled from direct experiences and phrases the cast used. And obviously it reflected an experience that Lee did not have, but she was the only one credited.

I’m not saying that other playwrights/groups haven’t done similar things, but even “A Chorus Line” (the most famous example) actually gave some credit to the cast. It’s also odd that Lee would directly pull from her students in a show she knows they are going to see. It’s not like some rude person said one nasty phrase and you use it in a play five years later. These are words and experiences with people who assume they can trust the person hired to teach that are just appropriated into her work without even so much as a “btw I’m gonna use this.”

It blows my mind. I’ve repressed so much of undergrad, ugh.

[Ledaero]

Posted: 6/12/20 at 5:02am

dexter3 said: "It's almost like Jeremy knows he messed up and instead of apologizing, he decides to go on an enormous diatribe in order to deflect. Sounds like he was mistreated at Yale...but nonetheless...own up and apologize."

But what does Jeremy need to apologize for? Not being as open to criticism as YJL expected him to be? He makes it very clear in his Twitter rant that he felt that he did take a lot of work on the show off of the page, and applied the criticism in forms other than rewrites. Does he apologize for the rape in the play? I don't think so, especially when the women performing the scene were okay with it and have spoken up in defense of how much work he went through to make the actors feel safe and understood in the process.

From my perspective with the evidence he's presented, he did a pretty excellent and respectful job of attempting to do conflict resolution with YJL, and she responded with rude and dismissive language. Maybe there's more evidence that he didn't present that shines a bigger light on why YJL might've been as fed up with him as she was, but this all feels pretty valid to me. Having experienced and witnessed gaslighting from professors in drama academia myself, this story feels oddly familiar in its power dynamics. 

Harris has had this pent up for a couple years now, and in a moment where it feels like YJL is hijacking (this is debatable, but I think this is where he was coming from) the BLM conversation and focusing it on herself and non-black POC issues, he exploded in rage. I don't fully blame him for responding like that, and I don't think he's entirely in the wrong. I'm not in favor of cancel culture on social media and I wish he didn't obliterate her like this, but he raises a lot of valid issues.

Does anyone know if YJL has directly responded about the entire thread?

[joevitus]

Posted: 6/12/20 at 9:59am

GavestonPS said: "
YJL is guilty of reproducing and broadcasting that part of the script, even though she didn't write it in the first place. Doesn't help her case in my eyes."

Except she was quoting a script that had been performed (apparently not just a reading) in New York. So it was already out there as a work for people to see. She may have felt it was necessary to nip the situation in the bud by shining a spotlight on it, and however atrocious she is as a professor, I'd agree with this choice.

A part of what's frustrating about this whole thing is the idea of playwrights coming out of MFA programs and then writing plays with in-references that only others who went through the same MFA program (or are in sync enough with current academia to recognize the targets) can grasp and "enjoy." Apparently, both the guy who wrote the quoted text and Jeremy O. Harris are doing that. Such a layer of deep insularity (playwright and audience must share an incredibly identical past experience) does not speak well for the quality playwriting that is currently getting produced and receiving engaged critical attention in New York. 

Updated On: 6/12/20 at 09:59 AM

[Ledaero]

Posted: 6/12/20 at 1:48pm

joevitus said: "GavestonPS said: "

A part of what's frustrating about this whole thing is the idea of playwrights coming out of MFA programs and then writing plays with in-references that only others who went through the same MFA program (or are in syncenough with current academia to recognize the targets) can grasp and "enjoy." Apparently, both the guy who wrote the quoted text and Jeremy O. Harris are doing that.Such alayer of deep insularity (playwright and audience must share an incredibly identical past experience)does not speakwell for the quality playwriting that is currently getting producedand receiving engagedcritical attentionin New York."

I don't think the play that YJL is talking about in her Twitter post was written by a former MFA student. The play was produced in 2013, so certainly before she was on faculty at YSD. Has it been stated anywhere that the initial play was written by a former student? And I also don't think Jeremy O. Harris has had YELL produced, it sounds more like a piece of therapeutic writing - especially if you read the notes at the top of the script. 

Having seen a lot of theatre in NYC the past two years since moving there, I can't name a single piece that falls into the category of "recent MFA graduate bashing their former program." This feels like a very unnecessary and rather irrelevant issue to bring up in this argument, especially when the crux of the issue between YJL and O. Harris is race and power dynamics in academia.

[LarryD2]

Posted: 6/12/20 at 3:03pm

Since multiple things can be simultaneously true, it's entirely possible that both Young Jean and Jeremy acted poorly. This is certainly not the first instance I've heard of Young Jean having problematic interactions with students, and yeah, she's known for stealing from classroom experiences and putting them in her work verbatim. And even before he got some name recognition Jeremy wasn't known for being the most pleasant person in a room or the easiest collaborator. Put the two personalities together and there's bound to be friction.

Updated On: 6/12/20 at 03:03 PM

[joevitus]

Posted: 6/12/20 at 3:20pm

Ledaero said: "joevitus said: "GavestonPS said: "

A part of what's frustrating about this whole thing is the idea of playwrights coming out of MFA programs and then writing plays with in-references that only others who went through the same MFA program (or are in syncenough with current academia to recognize the targets) can grasp and "enjoy." Apparently, both the guy who wrote the quoted text and Jeremy O. Harris are doing that.Such alayer of deep insularity (playwright and audience must share an incredibly identical past experience)does not speakwell for the quality playwriting that is currently getting producedand receiving engagedcritical attentionin New York."

I don't think the play that YJL is talking about in her Twitter post was written by a former MFA student. The play was produced in 2013, so certainly before she was on faculty at YSD. Has it been stated anywhere that the initial play was written by a former student? And I also don't think Jeremy O. Harris has had YELL produced, it sounds more like a piece of therapeutic writing - especially if you read the notes at the top of the script.

Having seen a lot of theatre in NYC the past two years since moving there, I can't name a single piece that falls into the category of "recent MFA graduate bashing their former program." This feels like a very unnecessary and rather irrelevant issue to bring up in this argument, especially when the crux of the issue between YJL and O. Harris is race and power dynamics in academia."

Hard to get why teachers would be referenced in a play not even by someone who went through their programs, or were in programs and heard about them through the grapevine. If you're right, it only adds to my take that New York is giving attention to the wrong writers.

Updated On: 6/12/20 at 03:20 PM