Young Jean Lee v/s Jeremy Harris

[Valentina3]

Posted: 6/9/20 at 4:31pm

Original tweet from YJL - https://twitter.com/YoungJean_Lee/status/1270307643857362944

The play was apparently a small drama written by her former student Jeremy Harris - https://twitter.com/jeremyoharris/status/1270447515570233350

There's so much to unpack here. I don't disagree with YJL that referencing her was unnecessarily mean spirited. But at the same time, reading through Harris' perspective, she wasn't particularly a great teacher to begin with. The racism/patriarchy corrupts all aspects of our being, irrespective of who we are. This is sad to see. I think they're both individually talented people.

Updated On: 6/10/20 at 04:31 PM

[InTheBathroom1]

Posted: 6/9/20 at 4:35pm

I’m gonna need a drink first.

[TotallyEffed]

Posted: 6/9/20 at 5:30pm

She gave him notes while he was developing his play and that makes her anti-black?

[JSquared2]

Posted: 6/9/20 at 5:47pm

Valentina3 said: "Original tweet from YLJ -https://twitter.com/YoungJean_Lee/status/1270307643857362944

The play was apparently a small drama written by her former student Jeremy Harris -https://twitter.com/jeremyoharris/status/1270447515570233350

There's so much to unpack here. I don't disagree with YLJ that referencing her was unnecessarily mean spirited. But at the same time, reading through Harris' perspective, she wasn't particularly a great teacher to begin with. The racism/patriarchy corrupts all aspects of our being, irrespective of who we are. This is sad to see. I think they're both individually talented people."

Umm, her initials would be YJL (not YLJ as you typed several times in your post).  Maybe try getting her name right?

[JBroadway]

Posted: 6/9/20 at 5:49pm

Wow, this is incredibly...complicated. I will be thinking about this a lot and watching it unfold, because there is so much to process here. 

Goes to show just how incredibly complex and nuanced our world is. To try to make sense of it and do the right thing is incredibly messy, painful, and difficult for everyone involved, but we have to have these conversations in order to move forward! 

 

[Zion24]

Posted: 6/9/20 at 6:19pm

TotallyEffed said: "She gave him notes while he was developing his play and that makes her anti-black?"

that was my takeaway as well. twitter is such a small, silly universe.

[VintageSnarker]

Posted: 6/9/20 at 6:47pm

Valentina3 said: "There's so much to unpack here."

Seriously. This is so messy I don't even know where to begin. 

First of all, is YJL's tweet referencing a play that Harris wrote? Because she says it's from a white playwright in 2013. How is that connected with Harris's tweet thread? Or is it not?

My first thought is that I find him annoying and resistant to critique of his work. And he doesn't seem to have respect for other people's opinions about how he chooses to use rape and the abuse of female bodies in his work. But also, her behavior seems irresponsible and unprofessional for a teacher, even in a creative field. 

[Valentina3]

Posted: 6/9/20 at 8:05pm

JSquared2 said: "Umm, her initials would be YJL (not YLJ as you typed several times in your post).Maybe try getting her name right?"

Sorry. My dyslexia got better of me again. You're right of course.

 

I agree with all of you - he has definitely shown resistance to being critiqued. But her specific critiques and style of teaching as described seem so deeply toxic and problematic.

[SouthernCakes]

Posted: 6/9/20 at 8:11pm

She said he had “charm privilege” basically saying he’s charming and he took that in such a weird way. I don’t get it. He comes across very whiny and spoiled.

[Call_me_jorge]

Posted: 6/9/20 at 8:42pm

Jeremy Harris is so bored he had too call out Young responding to a tweet that wasn’t even about him. Although, Young seems to not be the best educator out there. If this were reddit I’d say everyone sucks here.

[chrishuyen]

Posted: 6/9/20 at 9:34pm

It seems like Yell is another play that Jeremy O. Harris wrote that references YJL as well (but not the same one she was tweeting about).  I haven't read it, but I found the one in YJL's tweet pretty distasteful and tacky, like if you want to use your peers as characters I feel like it should be as pseudonyms or if for comic purposes (like what YJL was implying) then get it okayed by them before proceeding.

It does seem YJL didn't handle the feedback session in a particularly sensitive or nuanced manner.  It seemed to me that she was very offended by the rape scene, which I suppose she can't be blamed for, but at the same time she didn't seem open to taking in other women's perspectives on it or understanding why Jeremy O. Harris felt the need to include it.  I don't pretend to know how YSD operates as an institution, but in general I'd think that not all notes would have to be implemented if the creator disagrees with the feedback.  At the same time, I'm not sure how much Jeremy really tried to hold a conversation with her about how to make it less triggering or understand why it was necessary for it to be triggering to get the point across. (On a tangential note, I don't think I remember a trigger warning for the Broadway production, but at the same time, I suppose Broadway isn't the best at communicating these sorts of things).

I can see faults on both sides, but I do think it's disappointing to see how much YJL lashed out while she was in her capacity as a teacher/educator without trying to nurture.  Jeremy's texts/emails seem mostly respectful but I do see how they could be perceived as aggravating/manipulative if someone's already wound up.  But like he said, he was a second year student so I feel like it just could've been better used as a teaching moment/learning opportunity for him. 

[anniebakerfan]

Posted: 6/9/20 at 9:43pm

 I’ve never had a professor imply that I HAD TO take their notes. She was totally unprofessional.

[TotallyEffed]

Posted: 6/9/20 at 11:36pm

Is it normal to text with a student? Sounds like they both needed some boundaries.

[GavestonPS]

Posted: 6/9/20 at 11:57pm

TotallyEffed said: "Is it normal to text with a student? Sounds like they both needed some boundaries."

These days? Absolutely normal. I used to get up at 4 a.m. on the days papers were due or exams were given to answer all the last-minute emails from students with questions about what they were cramming.

I retired 15 years ago, so I'm not current with how social media are used in academia today, but I promise you email was a common thing at colleges even in the late 1990s. My email address (and home phone number) were printed on my syllabi.

***

I also have no opinion on the dispute, if such it was, between YJL and Mr. Harris. As stated above, she seems to be talking about a white playwright in her tweet... He seems to respond as if she is talking about him...

As a deeply grateful, one-time student of Oskar Eustis, I find the passage she cites both infantile and horrific!

Updated On: 6/10/20 at 11:57 PM

[Alex Kulak2]

Posted: 6/10/20 at 12:31am

TotallyEffed said: "Is it normal to text with a student? Sounds like they both needed some boundaries."

In an MFA program, when you can usually count your students on your hands, it's not super weird.

I agree with Harris's tweet about the steps his took to be respectful to his cast and his audience. He did the work with his actors, got an intimacy coach, posted very clear content warnings. As far as YJL should be concerned, Harris' hands are clean.

Also, if Young Jean Lee, a respected award-winning playwright, really did badmouth a second-year *grad student* to a bunch of industry professionals, then that is super messed up.

[east side story]

Posted: 6/10/20 at 8:50am

Jeremy loathed YSD, and the feeling was mutual.

Updated On: 6/10/20 at 08:50 AM

[KJisgroovy]

Posted: 6/10/20 at 10:03am

"did badmouth a second-year *grad student* to a bunch of industry professionals"

He was a professional playwright  while at Yale. Slave Play was given productions and won awards and "Daddy" was slated while he was still attending. Young Jean Lee doesn't sound like much of a mentor and frankly sounds like a jerk here, but the notion that he was a naive and vulnerable "student" isn't quite an accurate depiction.  

[Victorianchick]

Posted: 6/10/20 at 1:17pm

If they ever outlaw boxing due to CTE, people will have theater heavyweight bouts to fill the void. Of course fans of boxing probably not big on Broadway. But that's too bad. This is basically the culture wars in English departments shifted to theater. Self-cannibalizing. The #metoo movement took months to get this ugly and extreme. 

The difference between boxing or wrestling and Broadway Twitter wars? The spectators at a big fight have "side action" but do not themselves participate. On Twitter, there are hundreds of spectators who take part in the feud. 

[Victorianchick]

Posted: 6/10/20 at 1:26pm

I am 48, so when I was in PhD program (English lit not theater), texting did not really exist. Flip phones were cumbersome. 

But graduate school is different from undergrad. The program is so intimate and your bonds with advisors/professors is different. For one thing, you start using your professors' first names. Unless a professor is really old and really famous. But even Harold Bloom went by Harold. 

I agree entirely about boundaries. But the mode of communication---text---doesn't seem to me in and of itself inappropriate. Harris is a Millennial and most Millennials are not comfortable with phone calls. I know parents and grandparents who have to text if they want to communicate with their kids. That generation hardly checks email for any reason beyond professional, and even then slow on the draw. 

Her apology in the handwritten note is quite specific. Harris wanted her to use different language: "I bullied you," not "I am sorry you felt bullied." 

I am fully aware of the difference. But if YJL didn't feel she had bullied him (and that post-it note with criticism of the character didn't seem so terrible), the only honest thing for her to do was to explain her unfortunate reaction as specifically as possible, and then express remorse for her part in causing him pain. 

As a former Yale student (BA, English), who was stabbed in the back by BOTH her PhD advisors in English at UCSB, I would urge people not in the academy to realize how vicious and traumatic PhD programs can be. It's not like college. Both the professors who created trauma in my life for years were white women. I'm a white woman. 

Egos and creative differences are not always racial in nature. White women beat up on each other , even when of the same class/background/level of privilege.

 

[LightsOut90]

Posted: 6/10/20 at 2:34pm

this is beyond messy....

[HogansHero]

Posted: 6/10/20 at 3:44pm

LightsOut90 said: "this is beyond messy...."

It is also an unfortunate sideshow that takes oxygen away from the subject folks should be focusing on. Hint: it's not about YOU, kids; it's about a system.

[MarilynMonroeSmash]

Posted: 6/10/20 at 5:49pm

Does anyone know who the playwright is that Young Jean Lee is referring to in her first tweet?

Also to the OP, it is not Jeremy Harris. It is Jeremy O. Harris.

[GavestonPS]

Posted: 6/10/20 at 6:23pm

Victorianchick said: "I am 48, so when I was in PhD program (English lit not theater), texting did not really exist. Flip phones were cumbersome.

But graduate school is different from undergrad. The program is so intimate and your bonds with advisors/professors is different. For one thing, you start using your professors' first names. Unless a professor is really old and really famous. But even Harold Bloom went by Harold.

I agree entirely about boundaries. But the mode of communication---text---doesn't seem to me in and of itself inappropriate. Harris is a Millennial and most Millennials are not comfortable with phone calls. I know parents and grandparents who have to text if they want to communicate with their kids. That generation hardly checks email for any reason beyond professional, and even then slow on the draw.

Her apology in the handwritten note is quite specific. Harris wanted her to use different language: "I bullied you," not "I am sorry you felt bullied."

I am fully aware of the difference. But if YJL didn't feel she had bullied him (and that post-it note with criticism of the character didn't seem so terrible), the only honest thing for her to do was to explain her unfortunate reaction as specifically as possible, and then express remorse for her part in causing him pain.

As a former Yale student (BA, English), who was stabbed in the back by BOTH her PhD advisors in English at UCSB, I would urge people not in the academy to realize how vicious and traumatic PhD programs can be. It's not like college. Both the professors who created trauma in my life for years were white women. I'm a white woman.

Egos and creative differences are not always racial in nature. White women beat up on each other , even when of the same class/background/level of privilege.

"

As a longtime veteran of academia myself, this post could not be more accurate. If there is any place uglier than a faculty meeting or a doctoral oral exam, it would have to be an actual war zone.

(For those who read it, I confused "texting" with email in my previous post, which only goes to show how old I am. But email was state-of-the-art when I was teaching and I suspect the same rules or lack thereof now apply to texting. It is absolutely true that a grad student's relationships with faculty are very, very different than an undergrad's.)

[GavestonPS]

Posted: 6/10/20 at 6:27pm

In response to other posts above, no, no student in a creative program is required to take the notes of his/her faculty advisor. On the other hand, some students make it clear they just aren't interested in any feedback but unqualified praise. One such student was finally asked to leave the MFA program of which I was a student. It was sad, but I also understood why the faculty felt he was wasting their time and that of his fellow students.

[joevitus]

Posted: 6/10/20 at 8:47pm

To have her bow and act subserviently, and literally emulate a geisha, is to use pretty recognizable racist tropes. How does one pretend it is anything else? 

Surely there was a way to satirize her, to make her as awful or irrelevant as he wanted, without going in that direction? I have no idea how awful she is. But as awful as she might well be, Harris doesn't just demean her with that kind of writing, he demeans all Asians.