clinton vs. sanders your vote? — Page 109

Oh, ignore fflag. It's quite easy.

I meant the Hillary question in earnest.



The only things I hate are war, corporate cronyism, and coups that empower dictators and/or apartheid. I guess these things will destroy me. Interesting.

Why Young People Are Right About Hillary Clinton

Listening to the youth vote doesn't always lead to disaster

By Matt Taibbi March 25, 2016


"Young people have repudiated the campaign of Hillary Clinton in overwhelming and historic fashion, with Bernie Sanders winning under-30 voters by consistently absurd margins, as high as 80 to 85 percent in many states. He has done less well with young African-American voters, but even there he's seen some gains as time has gone on. And the energy coming from the pre-middle-aged has little to do with an inability to appreciate political reality.

Instead, the millions of young voters that are rejecting Hillary's campaign this year are making a carefully reasoned, even reluctant calculation about the limits of the insider politics both she and her husband have represented.

For young voters, the foundational issues of our age have been the Iraq invasion, the financial crisis, free trade, mass incarceration, domestic surveillance, police brutality, debt and income inequality, among others.

And to one degree or another, the modern Democratic Party, often including Hillary Clinton personally, has been on the wrong side of virtually all of these issues.

Hillary not only voted for the Iraq War, but offered a succession of ridiculous excuses for her vote. Remember, this was one of the easiest calls ever. A child could see that the Bush administration's fairy tales about WMDs and Iraqi drones spraying poison over the capital (where were they going to launch from, Martha's Vineyard?) were just that, fairy tales.

Yet Hillary voted for the invasion for the same reason many other mainstream Democrats did: They didn't want to be tagged as McGovernite peaceniks. The new Democratic Party refused to be seen as being too antiwar, even at the cost of supporting a wrong one.

As The New Jim Crow author Michelle Alexander noted, America when Bill Clinton left office had the world's highest incarceration rate, with a prison admission rate for black drug inmates that was 23 times 1983 levels. Hillary stumped for that crime bill, adding the Reaganesque observation that inner-city criminals were "super-predators" who needed to be "brought to heel."

You can go on down the line of all these issues. Trade? From NAFTA to the TPP, Hillary and her party cohorts have consistently supported these anti-union free trade agreements, until it became politically inexpedient. Debt? Hillary infamously voted for regressive bankruptcy reform just a few years after privately meeting with Elizabeth Warren and agreeing that such industry-driven efforts to choke off debt relief needed to be stopped."



Read more: http://www.rollingstone.com/politics/news/why-young-people-are-right-about-hillary-clinton-20160325#ixzz44CRtyzpe

^ Talk about bullsh*t lol. Unmerciful...and stupid.

How about this one then?



http://www.motherjones.com/kevin-drum/2016/03/matt-taibbi-case-against-hillary-weak

Ordinarily, I find Matt Taibbi's articles insightful. But, that Mar 25 hit piece on Hillary is somewhat sophomoric. The mythical youth vote alone will not sew up the nomination for Sanders nor will it guarantee victory for the Democrats in the general election. I understand young adult angst. But, the rest of us make up a huge chunk of the electorate as well and this is not our first (or second) rodeo. We've lived through several blistering defeats of the Democrats at the top of the ticket and down ballot alike.



It takes time and experience to learn how to work within any system. No better example of that is Bernie Sanders who opted to run as a Democrat when it was politically expedient. To become Mayor of Burlington, he successfully took out a centrist Democrat, running as an outsider. However, for the much grander stage of White House hopeful, he made a calculated move that would gain him national exposure to facilitate fund raising. In the simplest terms, he plays it both ways. As kids in the hood say, player's got major game. I see you Bernie for your works!



ETA: I hadn't scrolled down to Auggie's brilliant rejoinder before my post. Having done so, I have to add that Auggie totally nailed it. Some of us have always regarded the Pied Piper of Hamelin as a cautionary tale.

Updated On: 3/28/16 at 01:45 PM

"While they don't make up the majority of the Democratic party yet, their time will come."



They'll gain life experience, possibly get married, possibly have kids, possibly own property, possibly start businesses, possibly have to layoff (or fire) employees, possibly get divorced, possibly have to provide elder care, etc. And that is when they'll learn that wishes and reality are not the same. I was under the impression that most folks figure it all out in their 30's but by all appearances there are some 50-somethings among us with latent development.

^^

This!!!



And great post by Auggie. Thank you. I so appreciate how articulate so many of you are.

Thanks for Clinton folks, the only person she can beat is Cruz or Trump, good thing the other side is dumber than we are.



Sanders hasn't been tested on a national level. Before he ran, almost nobody outside Vermont had ever heard of him. Since then, more people know his name, but he has been free of attacks from either Clinton or the Republicans, who have not missed an opportunity to trash Hillary in the debates (or elsewhere) and have pretty much left Sanders alone, since they don't consider him a threat. Sanders has also been very critical of Hillary, even though he pledged last year to run a clean campaign. So, Hillary has been constantly under attack by the Republicans for at least a quarter-century, and this year she has been the target of attacks from either side. It's amazing that she's still polling well and leading the Democratic primaries.



Sanders, on the other hand, has benefited from no mud-slinging so far. If he were to get the nomination, his favorable ratings would plummet, because the Republicans would not hold back. They will try every dirty trick in the book, and Sanders would be an easy target to take down. For one, he calls himself a "democratic socialist" and has extolled Communist leaders in the past. (In his tenure, Obama has been accused of being a socialist and socialism has become a dirty word to many Americans.) They will also bring up that he didn't hold a steady job until he was around 40 and didn't accomplish much in the House and Senate. Remember, in 2004, the Republicans managed to discredit Kerry's military record and attacked his subsequent antiwar activities (i.e. swiftboard) despite the fact that Kerry actually served in Vietnam and Bush didn't.



In short, Sanders is untarnished... for now, which is why he's polling so well. But it won't remain so if he were to be the Democratic nominee and the Republicans took out the knives and daggers.

Hillary supporters what if Bernie gets the at large vote?

I respect your opinion. I'm wrong a lot, but I love what this guy stands for, and always has stood for.

Tag, Sanders' supporters (many who are Independent and not registered Democrats) don't care about beating the Republicans as much as their candidate being 'pure.' Also, they think the Democratic Party is in need of an overhaul or outright dismantling. I've heard many of his followers state that the DNC and GOP are one and the same, so unless Sanders (an 'outsider' gets the nomination, the party is not worth saving.

I truly think either Democratic candidate would wallop Trump. Obviously they would still have to campaign, but a huge coalition of women and people of color loathe the man. One of the big reasons Romney lost is because he lacked support from people of color, and he was never as awful as Trump has been this entire campaign. Even my very Republican father hates Trump and doesn't want to vote for him. Yes, a rabid minority loves him, but I think most Americans are repulsed by him for one reason or another.