clinton vs. sanders your vote?- Page 124

[ErikJ972]

Posted: 4/16/16 at 11:25am

"Until the law is repealed, I'm not inclined to cry foul when a candidate accepts donations from a constituent or supporter."

And it's because of that kind of apathy that I work with kids everyday who only eat when they come to school.

 

[javero]

Posted: 4/16/16 at 11:32am

I'm neither apathetic nor heartless.  I only have so many battles left in me.  Add campaign finance reform to the queue.

[PalJoey]

Posted: 4/16/16 at 12:49pm

 

Do we still care about Citizens United?  Or has that gone the way of ...

 

You're blaming Citizens United on her now too?

 

"Let's remember, let's remember, Citizens United, one of the worst Supreme Court decisions in our country's history, was actually a case about a right-wing attack on me and my campaign. A right-wing organization took aim at me and ended up damaging our entire democracy. So, yes, you're not going to find anybody more committed to aggressive campaign finance reform than me."

--HILLARY CLINTON

 

 

[YouWantitWhen????]

Posted: 4/16/16 at 12:51pm

For the record, the fundraiser in SF with Clooney was also for the DNC, to help down ticket candidates run.  You know, raising the money necessary to help facilitate electing the candidates to enact he change that we all want to see.  

If you want to overturn Citizens United, the first thing you have to do is get Democrats in the Senate in order to seat a justice in the SCOTUS who will not equate money to speech.   Criticizing Clinton for helping the democratic national committee raise money to compete in the general election just demonstrates that Sanders is more about the message than actually implementing change. 

 

Updated On: 4/16/16 at 12:51 PM

[H.Higgins]

Posted: 4/16/16 at 1:41pm

"The Hillary love in here is nauseating"

This is a two-way street. For many of us, the Bernie love in here is nauseating. It has been, and continues to be, infuriating hearing non-stop about this candidate's "purity" when he has actually behaved like an opportunist and become increasingly more hypocritical in the past month of the campaign. He is just the newest member of the hateful club to relentlessly attack Hillary and is encouraging the electorate to do the same. I expect this from Republicans, but to run under the banner of the Democratic party while attempting to outright disqualify and maim our front-runner and presumptive nominee (who is beyond deserving of the job she seeks) is simply shameful and dangerous to those of us who want to see a Democratic president elected. In regards to his supporters, it is one thing to prefer him as their chosen candidate (as I prefer her for mine), but to suggest that she would be no different as president than the Republican contenders is offensive and wrong. I am, quite frankly, sick of it and, to borrow a phrase from the earlier poster quoted at the top of my post, nauseated.

While many want to decry her fundraisers with big donors, there seems to be a failure to recognize that she is raising necessary funds for down-ballot Democrats, not just her own campaign. Hillary supports and works hard for candidates on the left at other levels of our government, which is vital to the future of liberal causes. It is frustrating to see that the talk of "revolution" from Bernie never includes helping build the coalition that is critical to pass the kind of reforms many of us would like to see. Not only does he not seem interesting in helping himself (seemingly because he resents the label of Democrat, despite taking it on for the financial aspect of running for president), but many of his supporters appear to be thrilled at the prospect of a Sanders presidency without any concern for who serves as their senator, representative, governor, or state senator and representative. Are these voters showing up when it is time to elect local officials? Past elections would suggest not. I certainly hope that changes moving forward. President Obama has faced uphill battles on everything he has worked for because of a Republican majority in congress and in the governor's mansions and state congresses around the country. The president, no matter who it is, cannot fight these issues alone. Hillary understands that and is working for it.

During the most frustrating moments of this primary (and this thread), I have found comfort in the reality and reason of the folks at the fivethirtyeight website. Math and facts are awesome! This article posted yesterday (http://fivethirtyeight.com/features/clinton-is-winning-the-states-that-look-like-the-democratic-party/) is helpful, given the Sanders campaign's recent audacious tactic of claiming that Hillary only wins in the deep South and that those wins do not matter. Firstly, it is outright false that she has only won in the deep South (it's one thing to ignore facts that are inconvenient to your case, but it's another entirely to rewrite them), but it's amazing how he so easily dismisses the votes of anyone who supports her, especially in diverse states. As a reminder, she is winning in each possible metric: pledged delegates (by a larger margin than Obama ever had against her during the 2008 primary), popular vote (by around 2.5 million votes), and super-delegates. There was a fun piece on MSNBC last night where, in breaking down Thursday night's debate, Steve Kornacki humored Bernie's notion of dismissing every Democratic vote for Hillary in a "red state" and removed all of the "red states" she has won from her column and all of the "red states" he has won from his column, leaving only "blue states" for each of them. Here's the fun part (cause you know, facts): she is still winning in pledged delegates and the popular vote even if we only include the states that Bernie has decided matter (the "blue" ones).

I wanted to share this great article (a bit lengthy because it is a Politico Magazine piece) from a reporter who has followed Hillary through her 2008 race and time as Secretary of State about the difference between Hillary on the campaign trail and Hillary on the job: http://www.politico.com/magazine/story/2016/04/hillary-clinton-2016-the-mystery-of-the-two-hillarys-213813

 

[YouWantitWhen????]

Posted: 4/16/16 at 1:50pm

^^^^^^^^^

Clap clap clap clap clap

[South Florida]

Posted: 4/16/16 at 3:34pm

Higgins, raising money for whom, the Debbie Wasserman Schultz types?  At least some of the Bernie supporters in here are even handed, not me, but all the others, you Hillary supporters are willing to overlook so many things about her in your dream world, still unable to admit she will be the most distrusted nominee ever, with good reason.  Republicans will flock to the polls to beat her, Independents will stay home, and the left (Bernie Bros) will come in way less numbers, but you keep on telling us she is the best candidate as if every poll is wrong.  

[PalJoey]

Posted: 4/16/16 at 4:29pm

 

Bravo, Professor Higgins, bravo.

 

[javero]

Posted: 4/16/16 at 4:38pm

South Florida,

What's the ETA for answers to the following: (1) is the Sanders' proposal for free public college tuition dictated by the federal gov't legal?, and (2) can you identify at least one piece of signature legislation at the federal level sponsored by Bernie signed into law that has impacted the entire nation other than a cost of living increase for vets?

It's simple what I'm requesting.  That is, elaborate on Sander's record (or lack thereof) for once instead of Hillary-bashing.

Updated On: 4/16/16 at 04:38 PM

[PalJoey]

Posted: 4/16/16 at 4:48pm

Asking South Florida for that kind of answer is unfair. You'd get a more intelligent response if you asked Erik or Borstal.

[javero]

Posted: 4/16/16 at 4:52pm

I don't make assumptions about anyone's background.  And I'd never describe anyone on here as a low-info voter.

[StageManager2]

Posted: 4/16/16 at 6:37pm

Hillary playing Dominoes in Harlem.

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2lEIsBMb_Hc

 

(Sorry, I don't know how to post videos ever since they changed the format last year, so you'll just have to click on the link to get there.)

Updated On: 4/16/16 at 06:37 PM

[Borstalboy]

Posted: 4/16/16 at 7:19pm

She so down.

Bernie's accomplishments:

http://www.alternet.org/election-2016/bernie-gets-it-done-sanders-record-pushing-through-major-reforms-will-surprise-you

[HorseTears]

Posted: 4/16/16 at 8:27pm

I honestly can't tell if Bill's off-script remarks are a sense of pride or embarrassment for Hillary at this stage.  Is he saying the **** she wants to, but can't say?  Or is he just going totally rogue on his own?  Hard to tell.  When he says stuff like this, I get echoes of his 2008 remarks about Obama's campaign being the "biggest fairy tale" he'd ever seen.  

 

That said, his larger point that the questions about and solutions to inequity are far more complex and nuanced than that Sanders campaign will allow, is spot-on.  

[binau]

Posted: 4/16/16 at 9:02pm

Bernie Sanders' following reaches further than 'young students'. My understanding is that he is strong for under 45 years olds. But regardless of which, he is being rather condescending here. Bernie Sanders' policies for addressing income inequality are wider than just attacking Wall Street. He wants to greatly increase the accessibility of education, increase the minimum wage, increase jobs (by rebuilding infrastructure and improving trade policies), implement public healthcare, paid parental/sick leave etc. Young people know these policies can help address issues with income inequality because they have done so across the world.

"Many of his supporters appear to be thrilled at the prospect of a Sanders presidency without any concern for who serves as their senator, representative, governor, or state senator and representative. Are these voters showing up when it is time to elect local officials? Past elections would suggest not."

I know this doesn't change the outcome, but I do not agree that he doesn't have the "interest" to forward this particular cause. It's a pragmatic decision because of limited resources. He is struggling to clinch the nomination, and needs to spend all his resources on achieving this goal at the moment. 

But regarding voter turn out. Bernie Sanders has an unprecedented ability to inspire people to involve themselves in the political process, breaking records for the amount of individual donations received at various time points and in recent times out-earning Hillary Clinton (there is some strategy to being funded by small donations - there is a greater opportunity to raise more money when donors are not at their limit!). I would not underestimate the power of Bernie Sanders to inspire a strong voter turnout and raise money - this is exactly why he has been able to achieve his success, and one of the strengths of his campaign compared with Hillary Clinton's campaign. 

 

 

[South Florida]

Posted: 4/16/16 at 9:07pm

Javero, whether free college education is legal or not is hardly an issue, it can be done, if it's not legal now it could be, thank you Borstal for posting that re part 2.  PJ, folks, keep loving on this woman who blows with the wind, keep forgetting she was wrong on almost every single issue in her life, and cares little for the poor. Please stop your disgusting love, you're about to turn off a real voter in an important state.   

[South Florida]

Posted: 4/16/16 at 9:17pm

PJ, reading you in this thread the last year has been beyond nauseating.  No matter how many times this woman has been on the wrong side of issues you overlook it.  Should we make a list where she's been wrong and Sanders has been wrong in the last 25 years, do you really want to go there?  Challenge me to start.

[PalJoey]

Posted: 4/16/16 at 9:29pm

 

 

[PalJoey]

Posted: 4/16/16 at 11:14pm

 

OMG! Shillary's speech at Goldman Sucks! LIVE! On video!

 

DOWN WITH THE EVIL QUEEN!

LONG LIVE OUR JEWISH SOCIALIST KNIGHT IN SHINING ARMOR!

EVERY WORD SHE SAYS IN THIS VIDEO IS A DEATH SENTENCE TO HER CAMPAIGN!

BURN THE WITCH!

BERN THE BITCH!

 

 

[binau]

Posted: 4/16/16 at 11:35pm

“PJ, reading you in this thread the last year has been beyond nauseating.  No matter how many times this woman has been on the wrong side of issues you overlook it.  Should we make a list where she's been wrong and Sanders has been wrong in the last 25 years, do you really want to go there?  Challenge me to start.

“

 

I have sometimes found it uncomfortable to participate in this thread because when I have tried to talk about issues I have been met with ad hominem arguments or emotionality (that said, you can be a bit antagonizing SF).

 

But yes, if we talk about this point, it does seem a bit odd to me that Hillary seems to often be let ‘off the hook’ for previous policy positions she has held. She can say that she has ‘evolved’ or made a mistake but at the end of the day, wouldn’t we prefer a decision maker who is more likely to make the right decisions the first time or sooner than a decision maker who has to frequently learn from their mistakes?

 

For example, I find it incredibly sad that Hillary has only supported gay marriage for about 3 years, and for years has publicly expressed that she does not support gay marriage. Look at how quick she is to say “no” – there is absolutely no hesitation and no sensitivity about the issue. It’s incredibly cold and sad. It makes my blood boil.

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fZkK2_6H9MM

 

What is even worse, is this video here, where she makes it clear she has had occasion to “defend marriage, to stand up for marriage”. In other words, she defends her DOMA decision. Yet, in the recent presidential campaign she tried to rewrite history/spin her decision as if it was actually in fact supportive of the gay movement by preventing the constitution from being amended. This position is inconsistent with her words below, clearly showing that she has been dishonest either then or now (either way, it doesn’t matter!). 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6I1-r1YgK9I

 

Now, Bernie Sanders may not have been ejected from the womb championing gay rights. However, the "don't ask don't tell" speech is highly compelling. There is some debate about how long exactly he has supported gay marriage. He voted against DOMA, suggesting support. However, critics have claimed this decision was not made in support of gay marriage but rather his belief that it should be a decision for the states. As far as I know, he has never publicly advocated for traditional marriage or trotted out a deeply hurting line that "marriage is between a man and a woman", often evading the question when asked to make a public comment. This might mean he has personally supported gay marriage for a very long time. In the absolute worst and most conservative case, Bernie has supported gay marriage for 4 years longer than Hillary Clinton. This is an entire presidential term and most importantly, it was less popular to support gay marriage in 2009 than in 2013. At the end of the day though, as far as I am aware Bernie Sanders has never ever said that marriage is a sacred bond between a man and a woman, where as Hillary Clinton has. 

Let’s now turn to the Iraq War. Look at Bernie Sanders’ speech advocating against the Iraq War. Many of his predictions and issues related to the Iraq War were accurate. Hillary Clinton may in hindsight describe her vote as a mistake. This mistake was absolutely devastating for the lives of many Americans and Iraqians (both directly through injuries, deaths and indirectly through economic impacts). The impact of this war is still lingering around today, being partly responsible for the rise of ISIS and Islamic terrorism.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NdFw1btbkLM

 
Similarly, her support of various trade agreements such as TPP, NAFTA while Sanders has been against them all.

 

Of course, Hillary and Sanders’ positions are more often aligned than not. Apparently they voted the same way 93% of the time when they were both in the Sentate. But when it comes down to some of the key issues, Bernie Sanders has been on the right side of history and Hillary Clinton simply hasn’t.  When the president takes office, surely the better decision is to elect the person who you can be confident has a history of better judgment when it comes to the critical issues based on their previous judgement. Even right now, Bernie Sanders’ policies are on the right side of history. As America’s younger population begin to rise up and take the reigns, I have no doubt Bernie Sanders’ policies will finally be implemented given 1. They already exist in many other progressive nations and 2. The almost unanimous support of his policies by young people.

 

Just as Hillary Clinton has been on the wrong side of history about gay marriage, trade deals and the Iraq war, she is going to be on the wrong side of history about healthcare, the minimum wage and education. Bernie Sanders will likely be on the wrong side of gun control, I admit.

 

Updated On: 4/16/16 at 11:35 PM

[javero]

Posted: 4/17/16 at 2:22am

borstalboy,

You are referring to amendments to existing bills/resolutions which Representatives and Senators make all the time to give the impression to constituents back home (and the MSM) that they're fully engaged.  It's a very effective way to hitch your wagon to someone else's star.  The real sausage making occurs within the standing committees and associated subcommittees.

I think it speaks volumes that the Dems have never included Bernie in the the following standing committees: (1) Appropriations (aka $$$ for fed gov't agencies), (2) Armed Services, (3) Banking, Housing, and Urban Affairs, (4) Commerce, Science, and Transportation (including infrastructure), and (5) Foreign Relations (there but for the grace of God go I).  Perhaps that's why endorsements from his Congressional peers have been conspicuously absent so far.

See Bernie's committee assignments.  Then, see the Senate committee listing.  Roll call amendments have been the only option available to Bernie to push his agenda in the Senate.  He burned so many bridges during his stint in the House that the Dems in the Senate basically boxed him out of the committees with the broadest breadth.

Let me me know if you'd like to continue splitting hairs over the effectiveness of Sander's record in Congress.  If so, as an exercise, we can parse his 329 Senate amendments whenever convenient.  Official source.  Though I'd rather watch paint dry I'll play along.

ETA: Nearly forgot to respond to South Florida who offered the following gem of jurisprudence.

"Javero, whether free college education is legal or not is hardly an issue, it can be done, if it's not legal now it could be"

I qualified my assertion by limiting the scope to tuition rates at PUBLIC colleges and universities.  It was discussed in another thread.  We get it...you do NOT like Hillary.  But as the thread's originator & biggest Bernie Bro on here it's incumbent upon you to make the case for Bernie based on his record as mayor and legislator while living on the public dole for 40 years.  The entire free world has seen Hillary's curriculum vitae.  Trust me, I'm doing both Bernie and you a favor on the off chance he should nab the party nomination.  So once again, Bernie's on trial...now defend him!

Updated On: 4/17/16 at 02:22 AM

[StageManager2]

Posted: 4/17/16 at 10:25am

PJ, that video's not live. It says it's from September 23, 2014.

[PalJoey]

Posted: 4/17/16 at 11:12am

 

Exactly.

 

 

[Steve C.]

Posted: 4/17/16 at 11:46am

Friends,

The Bernies' are really getting their t@ints sweaty! Phew! It's almost too ridiculous to fight in here anymore.

Just volunteer if you can. Support however you can. I'm volunteering locally and for HC. That probably pi$$es people off even more.

[Borstalboy]

Posted: 4/17/16 at 11:47am

Javero,

I agree that a pissing contest between Sanders and Clinton as to who was the most effective while in office is a waste of time.  You all know--and don't give a damn about--her laundry list of sins, including the ones against your own gay community.  I truly, truly do not understand it and never will.

Viva oligarchy!