No tax credit and raising for shows this season.

[Ensemble1711444445]

Posted: 8/22/25 at 9:16am

Lots of limited run plays this season. Curious to see who can raise the money without a tax credit. Same goes for all the 20-30 million dollar musicals. Investors will need to step up this year. 

Updated On: 8/22/25 at 09:16 AM

[DaveyG]

Posted: 8/22/25 at 9:31am

The lack of new musicals is very upsetting. I have heard that several of the shows intending to open this season are having real trouble raising capitalization. 

[Ensemble1711444445]

Posted: 8/22/25 at 9:48am

Lots of musicals out there but the houses they usually go to are all booking short run plays. On the plus side almost all the show they are booking are extremely friendly towards minority and LGBTQIA audiences - the Queen of Mar a Lago aside. 

[ErmengardeStopSniveling]

Posted: 8/22/25 at 10:11am

It's bleak times out there. I can't say I blame investors for not wanting to shell out. Look at last season:

• The two most lauded musical revivals closed without recouping (one at least returned 60% and won a Tony, the other probably won't return a dime).
• 5 of 13 new musicals are still running. 3-4 of those shows might recoup in New York. MHE is one of the great success stories in Broadway history considering it came within an inch of being canceled altogether and then was on the brink of closing, but that show is the exception to the rule. Meanwhile, DEAD OUTLAW came in with about as good an off-Bway pedigree as you could hope for and it was basically D O A.
• Large musicals costing a million a week mean that sales cannot merely be good, they have to be GREAT. Even for a big show "doing well" like DBH, the profit margin is tiny.

 

The lack of a slam-dunk musical on paper is indeed concerning, HOWEVER it's still very early and things can change...

• at this point in 2011, ONCE had not yet opened at NYTW and NEWSIES had not yet opened at Paper Mill.
• at this point in 2018, HADESTOWN hadn't announced Broadway plans and neither had BEETLEJUICE (which had a poorly-received out of town run and a rocky sales-start on Bway). I don't think most of us would have expected HTown to have a run of this length based on the response Off-Bway.
• at this point in 2023, SUFFS hadn't announced Broadway plans yet, OUTSIDERS would have announced yesterday, and ILLINOISE and GREAT GATSBY were late additions to the season.

 This thread might also be of interest.

Updated On: 8/22/25 at 10:11 AM

[fashionguru_23]

Posted: 8/22/25 at 10:15am

Ensemble1711444445 said: "Lots of musicals out there but the houses they usually go to are all bookingshort run plays. On the plus side almost all the show they are booking are extremely friendlytowardsminority and LGBTQIA audiences- the Queen of Mar a Lago aside."

Mmm...I'd say Kristin Chenoweth originating a new role, with a new Stephen Schwartz score has some support.

[Menken Fan]

Posted: 8/22/25 at 11:33am

ErmengardeStopSniveling said: "It's bleak times out there. I can't say I blame investors for not wanting to shell out."

As an investor in five shows recently that lost money, and considering the loss of the tax credit, I can certainly understand this sentiment. Being part of bringing art that you believe in to Broadway only goes so far. Something will need to change, or this model is not sustainable. If you're looking for ROI, investing in West End or in US tours has been more likely to recoup.

[darquegk]

Posted: 8/22/25 at 11:40am

I had an Off-Broadway musical of my own, "Tink!," in 2016. I have a current musical, "The Cabinet of Doctor Caligari," that WAS projecting to Off-Broadway this summer, but has pushed back to a likely regional premiere in 2026 due to funding. (Side note- producers, DM me if you want to hear the demo!)

It's tough out here for new musicals. It's DOUBLE tough if you're an indie new musical that wasn't developed by IP owners or workshopped in one of the major artist incubators of New York. I've been very lucky to be based in Pittsburgh, where new major shows like "Twenty-Sided Tavern" still launch with some regularity. Pittsburgh is MUCH cheaper to work and develop in, due in no small part to the unique rules for Actor's Equity that apply to the state blending Equity, non-union professional and community together. The first workshop of my show was extremely DIY: a fully staged book-in-hand concert version of my show with a cast of ten notable local pro actors plus two musicians. The total cost? Four hundred dollars. The second staged workshop cost about three thousand, a heftier price but still literal crumbs compared to the cost of a seated table read in NYC.

Every few years, there's an ebb and flow of "out of town tryouts" coming in and out of vogue. While I understand that NYC is the room where it happens, the only place where musical theatre has major commercial legitimacy, we are living in the economy we are living in. Premiere the work out of town, at the place you can afford; you'll be glad you did.

[CoffeeBreak]

Posted: 8/22/25 at 11:44am

fashionguru_23 said: "Ensemble1711444445 said: "Lots of musicals out there but the houses they usually go to are all bookingshort run plays. On the plus side almost all the show they are booking are extremely friendlytowardsminority and LGBTQIA audiences- the Queen of Mar a Lago aside."

Mmm...I'd say Kristin Chenoweth originating a new role, with a new Stephen Schwartz score has some support."

Except it's not good across the board sadly - book, directing or score.

[CoffeeBreak]

Posted: 8/22/25 at 11:45am

Updated On: 8/22/25 at 11:45 AM

[Jumpin_J]

Posted: 8/22/25 at 1:49pm

It really is a slap in the face to all the people who make Broadway possible. Broadway brings on over a billion dollars to the New York State economy including those in the service industry like restaurants, hotels, etc. The fact that TV and film get continued tax breaks but Broadway doesn't is going to help drive state revenue into the ground, a snake eating its own head. An increased probability of a show not profiting will scare off investors. Fewer investors means fewer show and dark theaters leading to unemployment across the city and state. This is stupidity on a monumental scale.  

[kdogg36]

Posted: 8/22/25 at 5:31pm

Jumpin_J said: "The fact that TV and film get continued tax breaks but Broadway doesn't is going to help drive state revenue into the ground, a snake eating its own head."

Every once in a great while I feel the need to inject my somewhat contrary politics into the discussion, so here I go. 

Isn't the best approach, if we want to equalize things, to stop giving handouts to millionaires across the board? I feel like opposing corporate welfare used to be fairly standard among those on the left, but it seems like, at some point, both sides decided to agree that subsidizing the wealthy was fine as long as you think they're going to put it to good use. That's known as supply-side economics, a classic case of the "trickle down theory," and Democrats used to oppose it. I still do.

[Kad]

Posted: 8/22/25 at 5:43pm

And let's not forget that many musicals start off in non-profits, either in development or in de facto pre-Broadway tryouts, which gives them considerable tax breaks before Broadway. 

Updated On: 8/22/25 at 05:43 PM

[ErmengardeStopSniveling]

Posted: 8/22/25 at 7:31pm

Kad said: "And let's not forget that many musicals start off in non-profits, either in development or in de facto pre-Broadway tryouts, which gives them considerable tax breaks before Broadway."

I am still surprised Equity and all the unions haven't done something about Enhancement Money yet (eg. "if a nonprofit wants to accept enhancement money, that's fine but everyone needs to be paid at Commercial rates.") Or that the federal government hasn't stepped in to investigate, especially in the current guy's regime.

The level of nonprofit expenses that get reimbursed by commercial partners is staggering, and most of the major nonprofits cannot afford to do a musical without Enhancement nowadays.

It would completely upend the industry.

(To be clear, enhancement money is different than Underwriting...for an enhancement agreement, the commercial producer expects an equal or greater voice to their nonprofit money-funnel, and they are using the nonprofit to aide in their money-raising and development of the show.)

[chernjam]

Posted: 8/22/25 at 8:35pm

Considering how bleak things turned for so many shows this year, to me it's a bit shocking that Chess is moving forward.  I mean, I've always loved the score, but it's hard to believe that Evita might not come out of concerns over finances but Chess is already selling tickets.

[ErmengardeStopSniveling]

Posted: 8/22/25 at 8:50pm

chernjam said: "Evita might not come out of concerns over finances"

If we are to believe rumors, EVITA might not come because of interpersonal feuds and ego...

I don't think it would have any trouble raising its capitalization, despite SUNSET’s financial failure. 

Updated On: 8/22/25 at 08:50 PM

[Ensemble1711444445]

Posted: 8/23/25 at 7:47am

Investors I have talked to are nervous, this season is rumored to be bringing in mostly 25-30 million dollar shows that flopped out of town, Dolly, Wanted and Queen, or that haven't been seen at all like Purple Rain and Lost Boys.  Like Smash and Boop losing 50 million almost immediately last season, if those 5 fail investors will lose 100 million.  What was the last original musical to recoup? 

[BdwyFan]

Posted: 8/23/25 at 9:03am

Ensemble1711444445 said: "Investors I have talked to are nervous, this season is rumored to be bringing in mostly25-30 million dollar shows that flopped out of town, Dolly, Wanted andQueen, or that haven't been seen at all like Purple Rain and Lost Boys.Like Smash and Booplosing 50 million almost immediately last season, if those 5 failinvestors will lose 100 million. What was the last original musical to recoup?"

Somehow there will always be plenty of “co producers” and their investors with access to funds that will just keep pumping money into Broadway and keep it going.   They like the opening night parties.  Lol.  

[DaveyG]

Posted: 8/23/25 at 10:41am

BdwyFan said: "Somehow there will always be plenty of “co producers” and their investors with access to funds that will just keep pumping money into Broadway and keep it going. They like the opening night parties. Lol."

I hope you're right. Many of the co-producer types I know are pausing or stopping their investments in commercial theatre. 

[ErmengardeStopSniveling]

Posted: 8/23/25 at 10:52am

BdwyFan said: "Somehow there will always be plenty of “co producers” and their investors with access to funds that will just keep pumping money into Broadway and keep it going. They like the opening night parties. Lol. "

They still get an invite to the party if they raise $250K or if the investors contribute $50K. That’s one of the problems. Some of the people who’ve been investing/raising for years are still keeping their number quite low to reduce risk or because their bandwidth is limited. $250K on a $9 million musical is a lot more valuable than $250K on a $25 million musical.

Raising development funds is also a problem. Investors are incentivized with better terms to invest ahead of the out of town, but if the show never comes to Broadway then they’ll never see an ROI. We’ve seen a number of shows play out of town then fall apart or languish for years in development.

Updated On: 8/23/25 at 10:52 AM

[sinister teashop]

Posted: 8/23/25 at 11:01am

Jumpin_J said: "It really is a slap in the face to all the people who make Broadway possible. Broadway brings on over a billion dollars to the New York State economy including those in the service industry like restaurants, hotels, etc. The fact that TV and film get continued tax breaks but Broadway doesn't is going to help drive state revenue into the ground, a snake eating its own head. An increased probability of a show not profiting will scare off investors. Fewer investors means fewer show and dark theaters leading to unemployment across the city and state. This is stupidity on a monumental scale."

Still attached to the NYS film tax break is the digital gambling tax break... 25% to 35% production costs can be written off. That includes both "E-Sports" and more broadly "Interactive Media and Video Games". 

[BdwyFan]

Posted: 8/23/25 at 11:02am

DaveyG said: "BdwyFan said: "Somehow there will always be plenty of “co producers” and their investors with access to funds that will just keep pumping money into Broadway and keep it going. They like the opening night parties. Lol."

I hope you're right. Many of the co-producer types I know are pausing or stopping their investments in commercial theatre."

But not the co pros who love adding Tonys to their shelves. And a chance to be seen on TV on the stage during the Tonys.  At $3k a pop to purchase. They’ll keep it going. lol.  

[CoffeeBreak]

Posted: 8/23/25 at 12:31pm

The "co-producer" types enjoy the parties, act like they are BIG in the business, make decisions (that they do not), are creatives (that they are not) etc.   It's quite funny.   They also hope to win a Tony, of which they will pay the $3,000.00 to get the trophy and post of its "arrival" never mentioning they paid for it (along with the hundreds of other producers) etc.  Co-producers still should not be allowed to even purchase trophies for raising some money - it truly diminishes the award as a creative achievement - even if we know "co-producers" ($ bags) bought them.

Updated On: 8/23/25 at 12:31 PM

[Wick3]

Posted: 8/23/25 at 1:00pm

There was a time before pandemic when Broadway productions didn't get any tax credits right? And Broadway survived. Even back in 1994-1995 season when there were only 2 original new musicals (Sunset Blvd and Smoky Joe's Cafe) and 3 musical revivals yet somehow Broadway survived.

 

 

[Bwaygurl2]

Posted: 8/23/25 at 1:07pm

Wick3 said: "There was a time before pandemic when Broadway productions didn't getany tax credits right? And Broadway survived. Even back in 1994-1995 season when there were only 2 original new musicals (Sunset Blvd and Smoky Joe's Cafe) and 3 musical revivals yet somehow Broadway survived.



"

Can't wait for future seasons that only have a couple new musicals! 

[ErmengardeStopSniveling]

Posted: 8/23/25 at 1:11pm

Wick3 said: "There was a time before pandemic when Broadway productions didn't getany tax credits right? And Broadway survived. Even back in 1994-1995 season when there were only 2 original new musicals (Sunset Blvd and Smoky Joe's Cafe) and 3 musical revivals yet somehow Broadway survived."

Yes, Broadway has existed without tax credits before and it will exist without them again.

However, the 94-95 season is precisely why these types of tax credits are beneficial: had there been a small cushion to help encourage risktaking, we might have had a more robust 90s on Broadway. Same with the tough times circa 2010.

Anything that can encourage risktaking is a good thing, IMO.

Where I think the current program failed is that it allows shows that turned a profit to still collect money from the state. Those funds should not be available to GOOD NIGHT & GOOD LUCK or OTHELLO.

Updated On: 8/23/25 at 01:11 PM