1776's Sara Porkalob Brutally Honest Vulture Article - Page 10

[BroadwayGirl107]

Posted: 10/19/22 at 10:48am

HeyMrMusic said: "Nothing they have said is out of character. They are not an unknown, just a newbie to the NYC scene. Their goal isn’t commercial theatre or Broadway necessarily; it’s storytelling through theatre. They were handpicked by Diane Paulus based on their own previous work. So this won’t hurt or stop them one bit. People know their name now."

They were handpicked by Diane Paulus, but I’m not sure Diane Paulus was expecting her directorial decisions to be publicly called “cringe”. Paulus is also the Artistic Director at ART where Porkalob’s show is supposed to have more development in the coming years. We’ll see if Paulus still cares to give her a platform after this. 

[HeyMrMusic]

Posted: 10/19/22 at 10:54am

Wow, this took a turn very quickly, and I won’t go into how wrong this conversation about pronouns is. I think people should do what they suggested Sara do and think before they say anything.

[BroadwayGirl107]

Posted: 10/19/22 at 11:10am

 

HeyMrMusic said: "Wow, this took a turn very quickly, and I won’t go into how wrong this conversation about pronouns is. I think people should do what they suggested Sara do and think before they say anything."

Putting “they” as one of your pronouns in your bio as a person who explicitly identifies as cis is absolutely misguiding at best. It suggests a non-binary identity. We still live in a culture where the default is cis pronouns. Not even sure there needs to be much discussion about that other than the fact than I and hundreds of others mistakenly assumed she was non-binary based on her very conscious and deliberate choice to add those pronouns in her bio while vaguely referring to herself as queer.

 

It’s a big dubious to me. Though maybe it’s the strategy Lauren Patten should have taken last year. (I am kidding—that would have been deceptive and ****ty) 

[Playbill_Trash]

Posted: 10/19/22 at 11:12am

Can’t wait to hear the BTS drama and audience reactions of her next self-produced, one woman show, performed in front of a mirror.

[Jordan Catalano]

Posted: 10/19/22 at 11:35am

Playbill_Trash said: "Can’t wait to hear the BTS drama and audience reactions of her next self-produced, one woman show, performed in front of a mirror."

I swear I’ve been thinking about this comment for 10 minutes before realizing you meant Behind the Scenes and not BTS, the music group. I was so confused. 

[JasonC3]

Posted: 10/19/22 at 11:39am

HeyMrMusic said: "Wow, this took a turn very quickly, and I won’t go into how wrong this conversation about pronouns is. I think people should do what they suggested Sara do and think before they say anything."

DELETED response that misinterpreted the quoted statement.

Updated On: 10/19/22 at 11:39 AM

[HeyMrMusic]

Posted: 10/19/22 at 12:10pm

JasonC3 said: "HeyMrMusic said: "Wow, this took a turn very quickly, and I won’t go into how wrong this conversation about pronouns is. I think people should do what they suggested Sara do and think before they say anything."

Hard pass from me on adopting a WWSD? approach (what would Sara do)."

Literally not what I said. Please reread if there’s any confusion.

[JasonC3]

Posted: 10/19/22 at 12:24pm

Apologies. Misread how the "think" was working in your post.

[Sally Durant Plummer]

Posted: 10/19/22 at 12:34pm

The Distinctive Baritone said: "SeanD2 said: "Honestly, one of the things that bothers me most about Sara is her co-opting of the they pronoun. She admits in a tweet that she is not non-binary and identifies as a woman. In the best case scenario she is trying to display performative allyship by adding the "they" (which is a very recent change based on other interviews with her that list her pronouns as she/her), and at worst she's intentionally co-opting a gender identity that is not her own."

THANK YOU. I’m so glad someone finally said it. I have had several non-binary high school and college students and it is a real struggle for them. But using “they” pronouns if you are cis and okay with the assigned at birth pronoun often strikes me as someone using “they” as some weird kind of social currency in queer circles (i.e. the theatre industry). There are exceptions to this of course, and I want to be respectful of everyone, but sometimes, as in the case of Porkalob, it comes across as co-opting other peoples’ pain.Porkalob identifies as a woman and her pronouns were she/her until like two months ago, and are still listed as such on her website. Something about it just doesn’t add up, and it seems kind of insulting to actual genderqueer people.
"

This is a fundamental misunderstanding of what the "they" pronoun is.

 

[QueenTwinnied]

Posted: 10/19/22 at 12:53pm

Some of you skeletons have completely lost the plot and turned your newfound hatred for Sara into straight up bigotry. To question why someone uses a certain pronoun is disgusting, point blank period. For many queer people like myself, gender expression is a journey and can literally change every day, and many adopt terms like "non-binary" or use they/them pronouns to express their gender outside the binary. Look at Demi Lovato, who has gone by they/them pronouns for years but has recently started accepting they/her pronouns because they're identifying more now with their feminine side. To assume Sara is co-opting non-binary language for clout or benefit is A) hateful, you sound like a Conservative and B) shows a fundamental misunderstanding of gender fluidity and why people use terms like non-binary. 

I shouldn't have to explain this in 2022, stop being hateful because it's now a reflection on you. Do better.

[The Distinctive Baritone]

Posted: 10/19/22 at 1:05pm

It’s always amusing to see morally righteous people jump in and insist we “do better” instead of engage in actual dialogue about a complex issue. 

[Sally Durant Plummer]

Posted: 10/19/22 at 1:14pm

Baritone, I don't have an issue with you, but I wouldn't say posting a comment assuming someone is intentionally and maliciously co-opting a pronoun to score oppression points is the best foundation on which to start a dialogue.

[QueenTwinnied]

Posted: 10/19/22 at 1:22pm

The Distinctive Baritone said: "It’s always amusing to see morally righteous people jump in and insist we “do better” instead of engage in actual dialogue about a complex issue."

I literally wrote a whole paragraph explaining how previous comments about Sara’s pronouns are harmful and all you took away was the “do better.” You didn’t engage in the actual dialogue yet you’re telling me to? 

That says all I need to know about you. 

[BroadwayGirl107]

Posted: 10/19/22 at 1:38pm

QueenTwinnied said: "Some of you skeletons have completely lost the plot and turned your newfound hatred for Sara into straight up bigotry. To question why someone uses a certain pronoun is disgusting, point blank period. For many queer people like myself, gender expression is a journey and can literally change every day, and many adopt terms like "non-binary" or use they/them pronouns to express their gender outside the binary. Look at Demi Lovato, who has gone by they/them pronouns for years but has recently started accepting they/her pronouns because they're identifying more now with their feminine side. To assume Sara is co-opting non-binary language for clout or benefit is A) hateful, you sound like a Conservative and B) shows a fundamental misunderstanding of gender fluidity and why people use terms like non-binary.

I shouldn't have to explain this in 2022, stop being hateful because it's now a reflection on you. Do better."

This is not what happened with Sara. She explicitly said she is cis, not non-binary. She did not say that usage of the they pronoun was part of a gender journey or trying things on for herself—something I feel strongly about allowing people space for. She went out of her way to correct people to say it is NOT THAT and that she is cis. Everything you’re saying is 1000% correct, but that’s not what happened here. 

[FindingNamo]

Posted: 10/19/22 at 1:42pm

I liked the Vulture article. It seems clear to me that in the world since Covid happened, workers are stating the facts of their employment as they see them because they are human beings who are not defined by their jobs and nor are they Gwen Verdon skipping her mother's funeral because it is a show night. People in power are rightfully scared that workers will speak honestly about the conditions they are in, and now it seems like more workers are totally out of effs to give about what the bosses demand.

Also, not shocked at all that this is all in regards to a Diane Paulus experience.

[Sally Durant Plummer]

Posted: 10/19/22 at 1:57pm

BroadwayGirl107 said: "QueenTwinnied said: "Some of you skeletons have completely lost the plot and turned your newfound hatred for Sara into straight up bigotry. To question why someone uses a certain pronoun is disgusting, point blank period. For many queer people like myself, gender expression is a journey and can literally change every day, and many adopt terms like "non-binary" or use they/them pronouns to express their gender outside the binary. Look at Demi Lovato, who has gone by they/them pronouns for years but has recently started accepting they/her pronouns because they're identifying more now with their feminine side. To assume Sara is co-opting non-binary language for clout or benefit is A) hateful, you sound like a Conservative and B) shows a fundamental misunderstanding of gender fluidity and why people use terms like non-binary.

I shouldn't have to explain this in 2022, stop being hateful because it's now a reflection on you. Do better."

This is not what happened with Sara. She explicitly said she is cis, not non-binary. She did not say that usage of the they pronoun was part of a gender journey or trying things on for herself—something I feel strongly about allowing people space for. She went out of her way to correct people to say it is NOT THAT and that she is cis. Everything you’re saying is 1000% correct, but that’s not what happened here."

I'm not saying Sara isn't using "they" as some kind of performatively woke (or as darquegk put it, socially engineered) gesture, because I don''t know her, but I think your conception of what "they" as a pronoun represents is narrow. "They" is not just the pronoun that nonbinary people use. Lots of nonbinary people don't use it, lots do, some are fine with he or her pronouns. It's a lot more complex and personal than the clinical terminology this board tends to gravitate towards, which is kind of the point. It also makes policing pronouns fruitless because no one is the arbiter of someone else's identity. Which again, is the point.

Updated On: 10/19/22 at 01:57 PM

[GiantsInTheSky2]

Posted: 10/19/22 at 2:00pm

Also, to be clear - “they” has been around long before “non-binary”. You can adapt the word, but that’s doesn’t mean you change it’s whole meaning. 

[BroadwayGirl107]

Posted: 10/19/22 at 2:07pm

Sally Durant Plummer said: "
I'm not saying Sara isn't using "they" as some kind of performatively woke (or as darquegk put it, socially engineered) gesture, because I don''t know her, but I think your conception of what "they" as a pronoun represents is narrow. "They" is not just the pronoun that nonbinary people use. Lots of nonbinary people don't use it, lots do, some are fine with he or her pronouns. It's a lot more complex and personal than the clinical terminology this board tends to gravitate towards, which is kind of the point. It also makes policing pronouns fruitless because no one is the arbiter of someone else's identity. Which again, is the point."

We’re not talking about my concept of the word “they”,  but instead someone’s deliberate and conscious choice to add it to their public profiles and bios as part of their identity. 

[QueenTwinnied]

Posted: 10/19/22 at 2:07pm

BroadwayGirl107 said: "QueenTwinnied said: "Some of you skeletons have completely lost the plot and turned your newfound hatred for Sara into straight up bigotry. To question why someone uses a certain pronoun is disgusting, point blank period. For many queer people like myself, gender expression is a journey and can literally change every day, and many adopt terms like "non-binary" or use they/them pronouns to express their gender outside the binary. Look at Demi Lovato, who has gone by they/them pronouns for years but has recently started accepting they/her pronouns because they're identifying more now with their feminine side. To assume Sara is co-opting non-binary language for clout or benefit is A) hateful, you sound like a Conservative and B) shows a fundamental misunderstanding of gender fluidity and why people use terms like non-binary.

I shouldn't have to explain this in 2022, stop being hateful because it's now a reflection on you. Do better."

This is not what happened with Sara. She explicitly said she is cis, not non-binary. She did not say that usage of the they pronoun was part of a gender journey or trying things on for herself—something I feel strongly about allowing people space for. She went out of her way to correct people to say it is NOT THAT and that she is cis. Everything you’re saying is 1000% correct, but that’s not what happened here."

I should've been more clear, I know Sara is not non-binary. However, pronouns are just one way people express their gender to others, along with many personal choices like clothing. Plenty of cisgender people (like myself)  adopt they/them pronouns because I view gender as fluid and express myself in different ways. For myself, I keep he/him because it's comfortable and what I've heard my whole life despite not always expressing myself as strictly "male." None of us know Sara and to assume their adoption of "they/them" pronouns was for attention is really gross. Who are we to say they aren't exploring their gender identity as so many people are? We should be affirming of someone's pronouns, period.

Also I agree with Sally Durant Plummer, especially regarding the policing pronouns which is what irritated me in the first place. It's none of our place to question.

[Sally Durant Plummer]

Posted: 10/19/22 at 2:13pm

BroadwayGirl107 said: "Sally Durant Plummer said: "
I'm not saying Sara isn't using "they" as some kind of performatively woke (or as darquegk put it, socially engineered) gesture, because I don''t know her, but I think your conception of what "they" as a pronoun represents is narrow. "They" is not just the pronoun that nonbinary people use. Lots of nonbinary people don't use it, lots do, some are fine with he or her pronouns. It's a lot more complex and personal than the clinical terminology this board tends to gravitate towards, which is kind of the point. It also makes policing pronouns fruitless because no one is the arbiter of someone else's identity. Which again, is the point."

We’re not talking about my concept of the word “they”, but instead someone’s deliberate and conscious choice to add it to their public profiles and bios as part of their identity."

Well, I think we are talking about your conception of the word "they" because you felt negatively about Sara adding it to her social media handles, and then attributed it to her tweeting that she identified as a woman and not non-binary. So I was just pointing out that people can use "they" as a pronoun without identifying as nonbinary, which is what appears to be the crux of your frustration with the public display of Sara's preferred pronouns.

Updated On: 10/19/22 at 02:13 PM

[The Distinctive Baritone]

Posted: 10/19/22 at 2:27pm

QueenTwinnied,

I re-read your post. Although I appreciate your input, based on my initial reading of it, all I heard was basically "You are a bigot, you don't get it, how dare you, shut up." If you wish to engage in meaningful dialogue with people, don't name call, don't tell the other person they are "disgusting," don't tell open-minded liberal people (which I'm assuming is like 98% of the people here) that they "sound like a conservative" just because they don't agree with you on a certain topic. You aren't going to win any arguments that way, you are just going to make people defensive, angry, and more likely to dismiss your opinion even if it has merit.

Also, everybody, for the record, I am not looking to "fight" with anyone on this board. I have been coming here since 2004 and it is my "happy place." I really enjoy debating issues with fellow theatre people here, but not when they get nasty. Please keep it cordial. Sara Porkalob is not your friend, you don't know her, and you don't need to defend her. She has chosen to be a public figure - to play a principal role in a Broadway show, to give interviews to major news outlets, and to post like ten times a day on social media. If she doesn't want to be discussed publicly, then she should go be an accountant or something.

To be clear, I don't know her either, and my opinion is not worth more than anyone else's on this board. I am using Porkalob's use of "she/they" pronouns as an example of what can come across as but not necessarily is performative wokeness and co-opting the appearance of a marginalized group of people (i.e. Rachel Dolezal and black people). Is Porkalob being a Rachel Dolezal of non-binary people? I don't know, but that's how it comes across to me. If I'm wrong, she can either come on the board to tell me so or, as she is known to do, go on a Twitter posting spree about it.

Folks, please just stop attacking each other on this board. Not everyone who disagrees with you is your enemy. That goes for "real life" too. Just...chill out.

[Moderator]

Posted: 10/19/22 at 2:32pm

The moderation team has determined this conversation has likely run its course and at such time we will be locking this thread. As always, if there are further developments that allow for additional conversation that falls within the scope of our rules, we will unlock the thread.