A question about Times Square's history

[winston89]

Posted: 4/4/12 at 5:16pm

I know that there have been lots of threads about the history of theatres. And, I am unsure if what I am about to ask should be asked here or on the off topic forum. So, if I am posting this in the wrong place, forgive me.

But, when did Times Square become what it was today? I am aware that in the late 80's-early 90's there was high crime through out the city specially in Times Square. But, how did the city get the funding to change it from porn to ad space? And, how much impact did Disney really have over the entire thing?

[Gothampc]

Posted: 4/4/12 at 6:09pm

It started with Rudy Guiliani as mayor. He convinced Disney to have a presence on 42st Street and once they committed, everyone else jumped on the bandwagon.

He then put in place laws to drive the porn shops out of the area with laws about what porn shops could sell (front section had to be non-porn videos) and how many feet apart they had to be from one another.

Once Disney came in and the porn shops went out of business, all the other chain stores started in: Applebees, M&M, Hershey, Bubba Gump, etc

[winston89]

Posted: 4/4/12 at 6:21pm

Wasn't there a situation of there being a strip club (or something to that degree) next door to The New Amsterdam when Disney got control over it? I believe that that place was a Disney Store in the beginning and now is a Saphora, but didn't the mayor have some influence over that closing and becoming a Disney Store/general retail store?

[thetinymagic2]

Posted: 4/4/12 at 9:54pm

Things started changing about 1990 or so. I have lived and worked in HK for many yrs, Even though I loathe Giuliani for many things, he DID put the Westies and the other crime families effectively out of business, as well as the brothels, etc.,(For real insight into the "old" Times Sq/Hell's Kitchen, TJ English's book on the Westies is a must read.)

A link (from 199, which depicts some of the community's concerns of the time.). Personally, I liked the old, dirty, dangerous, HK.

https://tenant.net/pipermail/hkonline/1998-January/000034.html

[justoldbill]

Posted: 4/4/12 at 10:49pm

Oh, Georges, how I miss the old view....

[JustAGuy]

Posted: 4/4/12 at 10:56pm

This article from the NY TIMES has a brief history of the redevelopment.


TIMES SQUARE

Updated On: 4/4/12 at 10:56 PM

[henryt]

Posted: 4/5/12 at 12:07am

Although it opened 8 years before Disney signed the lease on the New Amsterdam, I'm under the impression that the Marriott Marquis also had a significant effect.

[karen24]

Posted: 4/5/12 at 12:03pm

I read an interesting book about the history of Times Square that has several chapters devoted to this very topic:

The Devil's Playground: A Century of Pleasure and Profit in Times Square
by James Traub

I found it particularly interesting to read about all of the ideas for development that didn't work out, including one in which 42nd St was essentially going to be encased in glass, with walkways to get from building to building - the idea being at the time that there was no way to eradicate the "unsavory" elements on the street, so the best move was to isolate the theaters and tourist destinations from them. Fortunately, that didn't wind up being necessary!
The Devil's Playground at Amazon

[morosco]

Posted: 4/5/12 at 12:15pm

The entrance to the Gaiety was next door to the Lunt-Fontanne.

[aasjb4ever]

Posted: 4/5/12 at 12:18pm

Scene: My friend and I walk onto 42nd from Times Square
Me: (Sees 42nd Street sign, and New 42nd Street sign) Why did they call it “New 42nd Street?”
Friend: They changed the name because they got rid of all of the porn shops and cleaned it up.
Me: Why would they ever get rid of porn shops?!

Curtain.

[Gothampc]

Posted: 4/5/12 at 12:19pm

"I'm under the impression that the Marriott Marquis also had a significant effect."

Fie on the Marquis, fie, fie, fie!! They knocked down two theaters to build that building.

Posted: 4/5/12 at 12:23pm

I think it was three.. the Helen Hayes (original), Bijou and something else...

[newintown]

Posted: 4/5/12 at 12:25pm

I worked in Hells' Kitchen in the early 80s; even at midnight, I never saw any violent crime. There was prostitution and pot sales, but no one was bothered by those people if you didn't want it.

The plastic mall-culture of the current Times Square is more offensive to me than the grittiness of the 80s. Today, New York City panders to a sexually-repressed, small-minded suburban soccer mom and her kids - the lowest form of humanity there is.

[ljay889]

Posted: 4/5/12 at 12:28pm

Suburban children who play soccer are the lowest form of humanity?

[Pammylicious]

Posted: 4/5/12 at 12:31pm

I remember the Times Square of the 70s and 80s very well. Scary place to be at night. No so anymore BUT wasn't the area okay in the 50s and 60s? I was too young and really can't remember it but I recall my mother bringing me to the theater in the mid sixties. And I lived uptown so I was close to it but really can't remember the climate then. How did it turn bad in such a short time?

[Gothampc]

Posted: 4/5/12 at 12:33pm

Only in NYC could you see a sign for a gay strip club next to a sign that says "It's cock-tail" time.

[Gothampc]

Posted: 4/5/12 at 12:42pm

"BUT wasn't the area okay in the 50s and 60s?"

Because of the proximity of the theater district and Hell's Kitchen, the area was sketchy for a long time. The Capeman murders happened in 1959 about a block or two from the Majestic Theater.

[newintown]

Posted: 4/5/12 at 12:43pm

"Suburban children who play soccer are the lowest form of humanity?"

Depends on their mother...

Posted: 4/5/12 at 12:44pm

So Goth you don't condemn Guiliani for his big government ways? Telling private businesses what they can and can't sell? Making restrictive zoning laws that shut down small businesses?

[Gypsy9]

Posted: 4/5/12 at 12:49pm

The third theatre to be demolished to make way for the dreaded Marriot was the Morosco Theatre. Legions of actors picketed the construction site to voice their displeasure. I have an actor friend who refuses to attend any production that plays the Marriot Marquis Theatre in deference to the demolished theatres. Also, I don't think the presence of that hotel had an impact on the turnaround of 42nd Street. Even after it was built, the "naughty, bawdy, gaudy" 42nd Street was still its old self. While I commend the restoration of most of the theatres along 42nd Street, I decry the theme park hullabaloo that is the current 42nd Street. Imagine the Liberty Theatre, where distinguished productions took place in the 1920's, housing a BBQ restaurant! Why wasn't it turned into a usable Broadway Theatre, since they took the time to more or less restore the Liberty?

[Playbilly]

Posted: 4/5/12 at 12:49pm

I miss the days when tourists were afraid of Times Square and a top Broadway ticket was 50 dollars...

...and the strip clubs, porn shops and stores owners that you could actualy barter with.

[Smaxie]

Posted: 4/5/12 at 1:09pm

There were actually five theatres torn down to make way for the Marriott. In addition to the aforementioned Morosco, Helen Hayes and Bijou Theatres, there were also the Astor and Gaiety Theatres (no, not the strip club, another one), though both had ceased being legit houses long before their demolition.

The Astor was on Broadway, near 45th Street. It was a legit house and then a movie theatre for many years. At the time of its demolition, it was serving as a used book store.



The Gaiety was on 46th Street, but also had a Broadway entrance as you can see in the above photo on the far right. It ended its career as a movie theatre called the Victoria.

Updated On: 4/5/12 at 01:09 PM

[Gypsy9]

Posted: 4/5/12 at 1:27pm

Smaxie, I was waiting for you to weigh in on this thread. You know more about NY theatres than anyone else on this Board. And your archive of theatre exterior and interior photographs seems limitless. Thank you for your contributions to so many threads. ( And I know what you think about the Marriot Marquis Theatre).

[Smaxie]

Posted: 4/5/12 at 1:32pm

Thanks Gypsy! - but the photos are readily available on IBDB.com. If you use the search function on that site, you can find photos both past and present for almost every major Broadway house.

And yes, the Marriott still makes my blood boil. A dehumanizing, light-blocking, oversized catastrophe. If it had to be built, did it have to be so ugly?

[newintown]

Posted: 4/5/12 at 1:37pm

The hotel attached to it is an ugly, personality-free monstrosity as well. A perfect symbol for the new New York that cares about nothing but creating an unchallenging, artificial experience for tourists.