CAROUSEL on Live At Lincoln Center Tonight at 9PM!! — Page 5

I see. Well, I guess from this concert I never saw that. I wish they could have shown a few more reedeming qualities from Billy's character. I've seen people on Maury Povich I liked more than him.

I was just left thinking they were better off with no guardian angel at all.

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blaxx, I take it you are talking about the latest performance, which I haven't seen (though i'm chomping at the bit thanks to the discussion here).

But from Billy in the text:

"I reckon my sins are good, big sins
And the punishment won't be small.
So take me before the highest court
And let me be judged by the highest judge of all!"

Well, John Raitt was handsome, likable AND sang like an angel (pun intended). I'd probably let him hit me as long as he sang something afterwards.

I think Billy is supposed to be an "over-grown boy" and life at the carousel has allowed him to remain so. He's a little older, but compare him to the James Dean character in the film, REBEL WITHOUT A CAUSE.

It's a standard American archetype: the boy-man who throws a tantrum now and then because he is misunderstood; but, really, he's a p.u.s.s.y. (Jesus!) cat at heart.

So, no, Billy doesn't show real repentance; that would be too girly. But his willingness to go back and try to help his wife and daughter are supposed to show us that his heart is in the right place.

(ETA all of the above is at odds with the Hungarian original, where per Wiki, the leading man spends 16 years in Purgatory and then heads off to an uncertain fate at the final curtain.)

Updated On: 4/28/13 at 08:39 PM

I agree Gaveston, Billy really is like an "over-grown boy", like what Julie said after he died. For me it isn't rocket science to understand these characters from an archetype (like what blaxx said) and an historical point of view. I truly love Carousel for not only the glorious music and lyrics but for a story that shows yet another side of human nature. It is simple indeed.

Updated On: 4/28/13 at 08:50 PM

There's a lot to be appreciated in Carousel. Just curious... How did you feel about Next To Normal, or even better... have you seen the movie, KIDS?

Well, Diana has the mental disability. The children from Kids are minors who don't understand the consequences of their actions.

But I found nothing in Billy's story to accept his behavior. I guess I'm just supposed to accept that's who he was, but I could care less if he dies or repents if I don't see what made him that way. Sure, we love an underdog but he's just a dog.

And the portrayal of submissive women, to the point of accepting spousal abuse, infuriates me.

I understand the simplicity of the piece, but for me it was puzzling. Maybe it takes time to digest.

I wasn't expecting a traditional Broadway narrative, but something about it felt incomplete to my modern audience eyes.

I can see why it a challenging piece to perform successfully.

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I saw Patrick Wilson play it with Sarah Uriarte Berry in the L..A. cast of the last revival, and they were magic together, absolutely.

And when it works, as intended, Carousel is one of the most powerful and emotionally complex musicals ever written.

I believe you, I obviously just didn't get a good first impression. This cast had good singers, but they should have stuck to singing the score. The acting was so basic and impulsive.

It is complex, for sure. The character walks a very fine line between working or not very early in the show. I can see how it is easier to screw it up than to make us care.

Interesting responses, thanks all.

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Pal Joey, is there any video of Agnes De Mille's work in Carousel and what did you think of Warren Carlyle's choreography for the ballet in the NY Philharmonic production?

"O'Hara was an alright Julie but sometimes her soprano voice can be strained at times especially her rendition of "What's The Use of Wonderin" which the keys were lowered. "

No, they were not. Julie's second act solo was sung in D-flat by Kelli O'Hara as originally written. There were no transpositions for any of the songs in this New York Philharmonic production.

Updated On: 4/28/13 at 10:59 PM

"Billy messes up big-time, and gets a second chance to redeem himself.

But he doesn't! That's why this all makes no sense to me."

I really agree with this point, and that bothered me at first, but then after thinking about it some more over the next few days, I decided that the musical was much more true to life than if he had redeemed himself. He can make himself visible to his loved ones if he chooses, but he doesn't do that at the end - they basically get the messages they need to hear either from the graduation speaker (in the case of Louise) or from within (in the case of Julie). And in the end, I think that is more true to life. The people who hurt us and then die or leave us don't come back to give us closure by apologizing and telling us that they loved us. We have to give ourselves that closure by realizing that the world "belongs just as much to [us] as to the next person" (as the graduation speaker says, with Louise's keen interest), or by "knowing" that they loved us, as Julie decides to do, despite their severe flaws, including even violence.

**************Matilda spoiler below*****************
I think what bothered me so much about Matilda's ending, even though I liked the show overall, is that the child is lucky enough for her parents to give their blessing to her going to live with a loving guardian, whereas that is a rare stroke of luck that doesn't tend to happen in real life, so it has no message of hope for kids in Matilda's situation who aren't so lucky. It is just a happy and lucky ending for Matilda, which is nice, but that ending depends on outside luck. Matilda's only actions to "make things right" were to sabotage her parents in retaliation, which did not itself lead to her freedom in the end. I wanted it to give more hope to other children in her situation.
***************end Matilda spoiler******************

In Carousel, on the other hand, you don't have Louise's father coming back from the grave to teach her to overcome his hurtful legacy in a literal way (yes, the character is there next to her whispering to her, but she can't hear him in the context of the story - she "hears" his message coming from the graduation speaker, and it is only symbolically emphasized from Billy himself). So, she has to work that lesson out for herself by listening to it from people around her and figuring it out herself, much like in real life.

As for Julie, as i mentioned in an earlier post, it is unfortunately (!) not just a period problem that women and men stay with violent partners. The key to it in the show, and in most cases in real life as well, as that the violent person doesn't lead with violent jerkiness in the beginning of the relationship. If they did, they would never form a bond with the soon-to-be-battered spouse in the first place - the person would just walk away immediately. In most cases in real life as well as in Carousel, you first see the person fall in love with someone who is gentle and kind to her, and after they have married, he hits her in a bout of anger (one time, which they emphasize in the show, but it is early in their marriage and we now know that such things usually escalate rather than getting better). But someone who doesn't know that things can get better if she leaves and doesn't feel that she deserves better, and who sees the husband struggling and makes excuses for him such as his unhappiness and frustration due to unemployment, might think that it would turn around once that period of frustration is over.

When someone starts out gentle and kind and then changes to more jerky behavior, people sometimes look for external reasons for the change and assume that it is out of their character the first or second time it happens, and not unless it becomes the new normal do they realize that it was within them all along. That is why so many spouses stay with someone who has hit them - it is always followed by remorse and renewed kindness. If it weren't, making the decision to leave would be much easier. (Yes, I know it should be easy even after one incident, but that is not always the reality for everyone, and it doesn't mean that they "deserve" what they get with the violent spouse - they might need help seeing that they should leave.)

It is not an admirable trait that Julie stays with Billy and i don't think that the show portrays it as such (witness Julie's agreeing with Carrie that she is better off after Billy dies). But it is realistic for a certain segment of the population, and not a small one, whose stories are so rarely told. Billy is pretty much legitimately identified as a failure by the heaven-guide character. But what happens to his loved ones afterward is the real point of the story (at least for me), and not so much what happens to him. In other words, the story is a tragedy about a very flawed character, Billy, who affects the lives of Julie and Louise and it is about how they move on to better lives afterward. When well-acted, it also is easy to see how Billy's good qualities (being kind to Julie at first, wanting to provide for his child, however mis-guided the method) could have attracted her in the first place and thus started the sad story going.

Musical theatre has lots of telling the stories of happy, confident people falling in love. It doesn't have lots of stories about deeply flawed people falling in love, messing things up, hurting their kids, but then giving their kids hope for a better life because they can overcome their parents' hurtful legacy and don't have to be limited by it. That story resonates with a lot of people in a way that is rare in musical theatre. I think that is why Carousel is so loved by a great many people.

Updated On: 4/28/13 at 11:08 PM

I saw the broadcast and liked it for the most part. How wonderful to hear the score played by a 72 piece orchestra. To my ears, the singing was wonderful.

I can understand people not liking this production and not liking the show. Carousel is darker than any other major R&H musical. The 1945 production only ran for about 800 performances. To me, The Sound of Music is a so-so musical, but it ran longer than Carousel. I think the beach scene is one of the best written scenes in musical theatre. "Soliloquy" is one of the best songs for a male in musical theatre.
I wonder if it would help if there was a scene between the beach scene and the scene at Nettie's where we see Julie and Billy happy? It might help us ease into the rest of the story.

I do have a problem with people reducing Julie and Billy to people on Jerry Springer or Maury Povich. There is nothing sensational about Julie and Billy. They are not white trash! Julie's boss does not treat her as such. He treats her as an unmarried young girl working in his factory. In his way of thinking, young girls should not be seen with someone like Billy. He is willing to forgive her if she will go along with him back to where she lives. I think it's important to remember in this community, Billy is an outsider. We don't know how long he has been in town or how long he will stay. I think the sad thing about Julie and Billy is they are two people who can't express their feelings. They finally say I love you when it is too late.

Wow, jsg03jd, not sure how this reminded you of Jerry Springer and Streetcar Named Desire. I'm kind of offended by your calling poor people trash.

I think Julie is a young, naive, sweet girl. She may work in a factory, but that doesn't make her trash. Billy is also not trash. He's broke, has no skills and he hangs around with losers, but he's taken by Julie's sweetness and loves the idea of being a Dad. He's not too smart and wrecks his life, but what's the point of calling him trash? Is Rihanna trash? People do a lot of things for a lot of reasons. If you're not interested in the complications of human behavior, maybe you should just stick to Jerry Springer. And all this sexual stuff you're seeing in their first conversation, huh?? They're sitting in a public park on a bench. There's no reason to think Julie knows all about Billy's relationship with his boss.

That Gunn played Billy without any heart or charm is Gunn's fault not the character's. Billy is a conflicted guy, he had no money or skills but he chose a sweet, poor girl for a wife, he rejected his boss who has some money. Two broke people married for love, by all means condemn them. And broke then meant no welfare, no food stamps, no child support laws, nothing for the mother and child, what were all of Julie's choices? Billy's frustrations are rooted in his poverty. Unfortunately he took it out on Julie, but that doesn't make either of them trash. We're lucky to live in a time when there are more choices and more help for people with problems.

Updated On: 4/29/13 at 01:29 AM

The 1994 revival at Lincoln Center helmed by Nicholas Hytner really brought out the sexual undertones in IF I LOVED YOU, which was played out not on the traditional bench but with Michael Hayden and Sally Murphy rolling around on a knoll and highly suggesting that Billy and Julie consummated their attraction at the conclusion of IF I LOVED YOU. I also recall that production's souvenir program noting that the themes of CAROUSEL will always resonate because, among other things, women like Julie were staples of daytime talk shows saying they stay in abusive relationships simply because they love their man. Another poster noted the Rihanna and Billie Holiday examples to underscore this issue that CAROUSEL tackles in an effort to force the audience to think long and hard about these not so clean cut issues such as spousal abuse and socioeconomic divisions in society. After all, Carrie and Enoch climbed the social ladder and left Julie and Louise behind. Enoch Jr. outright said that were he to marry Louise, he'd be marrying someone beneath his station. Julie's boss also commented that folks like Julie just cannot be helped because she was, again for lack of a better term, trash as was Billy.

I love this piece because of all the things that make it antithetical to something like THE SOUND OF MUSIC. And someone who was interviewed for this recent production commented during the feature that was played during intermission about how visceral the physical attraction was between Julie and Billy in this latest production. It's all there in the text and music but of course everyone is free to find their own interpretations of those key early scenes in CAROUSEL.