"'FOSSE/VERDON' COMING TO FX"- Page 20

[kofler22]

Posted: 5/27/19 at 12:21pm

According to the book, what´s left to cover is All that Jazz, Dancin´, Paddy´s death (which is very moving in the book) , Star 80, Big deal and the revival of Charity...a lot!!!!

From the trailer I guess  that Gwen hates the idea of Ann Reinking replacing her in Chicago...and Bob´s death will match the Bye bye life number from All that Jazz...

[Miles2Go2]

Posted: 5/27/19 at 12:22pm

jacobsnchz14 said: "The track release that will coincide with tomorrow's finale is "Mr. Bojangles." If I didn't know better, I'd say that was Lin-Manuel Miranda's voice...https://www.e-onkyo.com/music/album/wnr075679845566/"

The crawler at the bottom of the page indeed identifies it as LMM! 

[kofler22]

Posted: 5/27/19 at 1:47pm

Just one song???

[bear88]

Posted: 5/27/19 at 2:24pm

GavestonPS said: "I remain astonished that so many people found the scene "overwrought" where Verdon's11 o'clock number became aduet. I don't think those posters understand what a big deal that must have been! Perhaps they should consider that Verdon's introduction to the material was a non-musical film version of the source play. The film was called Roxie Hart, not Roxie and Velma. In fact, if I am reading Wikipedia correctly, Velma is a minor character in the movie; Velma in the musical seems a composite of several female characters in the film.

Again, Chicagowas to be Verdon's comeback and, likely, swan song. Riverawas eight years younger and already doing the heavy lifting in the show's dances. Rivera already had the opening number as a solo and was a much stronger singerthan Verdon. Verdon had to have known that "All That Jazz" was a bigger solo than her own first number, "That Funny Hubby of Mine". Bigger, really, than any of Verdon's solos, with the possible exception of "Roxie".

Had Verdon done "Nowadays" as a solo, it would have gone a long way to reminding the audience that SHE was the headliner. Of course, Fosse was right to make the change; but Verdon had just sung the number for those assembled and it had been written for her. She was delighted and expected others to share that delight.

If anything, her reaction in the TV show was subdued, IMHO.

"

I'm at least one of the people who used the word, and I think it was a poor choice of words, especially as I'm learning more about the unpleasantness between Fosse and Verdon during Chicago rehearsals. My problem with her part of the scene was less that she was angry about losing the solo and more that the writers used the occasion for a Verdon speech outlining a laundry list of her grievances with Fosse. It felt like the writers' summary of Verdon's resentments toward Fosse and even Michelle Williams' delivery couldn't overcome that, at least for me. (I'm going to rewatch the episode, so maybe my impression will be different the second time around.)

It did offer what might be Sam Rockwell's best scene in the whole series, as he calmly ignores her personal grievances and focuses on what he thinks is best for the show. Fosse is not only at his creative peak; he's also at the height of his powers and knows that Verdon needs him a lot more than he needs her. The fact that he's right only makes it a tougher scene for Williams' Verdon.

And that is what is emerging as one of the strengths of the series: It's not a documentary, but the series, at its best, does an insightful job of peeking behind the curtain at the creative process of two very talented people. And Verdon's contributions - to Cabaret, as you point out - are certainly news to me. I think it's no accident that this series was made by a bunch of theater people, who are just as interested in that as fans like us are.

[GavestonPS]

Posted: 5/27/19 at 10:47pm

bear88, if the complaint about the scene is just that Verdon seems to cram too many grievances into what is presented as a public moment (even if the other people were all longtime friends), then I can understand the objection. Of course condensation is the soul of drama, but apparently it was quite a scene in real life! The biography reports that in the middle of it, Chita Rivera wrote a note on a piece of paper and passed it to Fred Ebb; it read, "Give her the number". That she felt a need to write it down rather speaking up suggests to me a highly volatile situation.

And Fosse, the newly minted film auteur, had already told anyone who would listen that he was only doing CHICAGO as a gift to Verdon, Her feeling of betrayal must have been overpowering.

I've reached the CHICAGO chapters in the biography and every thing I've said about the subject and more was already on the page in that book, including my comparison of "Nowadays" as a sort of "Rose's Turn" for Roxie Hart.

Updated On: 5/27/19 at 10:47 PM

[bear88]

Posted: 5/28/19 at 12:13am

GavestonPS,

It was the list of grievances in a public moment that felt a bit much, not the anger. It felt a little too "written," if that makes sense.

But from the sound of things, it sounds like it was a pretty volatile situation, based very much of the facts, at least as presented in the book. Fosse clearly was feeling his oats and had far more clout than Verdon at that stage of their careers - and he apparently wasn't shy about telling people so. The series presents Chicago as Verdon's longtime quest, and it's certainly believable to think a onetime star would see the show as her chance at a great role in a comeback. (She was certainly right about the show.) 

Chicago original version experts, correct me if I'm wrong: Doesn't Roxie sing "Nowadays" for a couple of minutes alone until she's joined by Velma?

I finally dug up Clive Barnes original review in the New York Times. It praises the performers, including Verdon, Fosse's choreography, the set design, et cetera. He just doesn't think the story is worth their efforts. I guess Barnes wasn't a fan of Fosse's musicals, even if he appreciated the talent involved.  

Here's how it starts:

"Bob Fosse's new musical, Chicago, is one of those shows where a great deal has been done with very little. One might be tempted to say that never in the history of the Broadway theater has so much been done by so many for so few final results; but then one remembers Pippin."

The re-review, when Minelli replaced Verdon temporarily, is basically a reassessment of the entire show. Minelli is praised, but Barnes has decided that he actually likes the musical after all, regardless of who plays Roxie. He mentioned long lines for the show, while noting that Chicago with Minelli was sold out and everyone buying tickets would be seeing Verdon.

The re-review, 2 1/2 months later:

https://www.nytimes.com/1975/08/15/archives/liza-minnelli-lends-talents-to-chicago.html?searchResultPosition=3

[GavestonPS]

Posted: 5/28/19 at 1:12am

Although I saw it many times during its original run, I haven't seen the revival or CHICAGO in any form except the movie since 1977. But other posters above remind us that Verdon sang the entire chorus of "Nowadays" before Rivera joined in.

My response, also above, was that still isn't exactly a solo, 11 o'clock number and, anyway, Verdon had no way of knowing how the number would be divided up at the time Fosse first suggested a duet.

But I understand your objection that Verdon's entire tirade sounded "written". I heard it as a lot of things she had thought but choked back over the years so it came out like a well-prepared list of grievances. I can certainly understand that it sounded different to you and others.

BTW and FWIW and, of course, there are contracts and there is "muscle", but Verdon had an extraordinary contract for CHICAGO that gave her veto power over every word, note, costume and movement. However, Fosse could have quit or, quite believably in his condition, gotten "sick" and left Verdon in the lurch. I'm sure she had no intention of letting that happen, solo or no solo.

Frankly, given what I know now, I think Verdon was amazingly generous to allow her passion project of almost 15 years to become such a showcase for her co-star. It speaks as much to her appreciation of talent, I suspect, as to her personal generosity to another dancer.

[kofler22]

Posted: 5/28/19 at 3:01pm

A great interview with Ann Reinking!!

https://www.newyorker.com/culture/culture-desk/ann-reinking-on-her-life-as-bob-fosses-muse-lover-and-friend

[Mike Costa]

Posted: 5/28/19 at 3:20pm

According to Chita's understudy, Lenora Nemitz, Gwen's tirade during the scene introducing Nowadays never remotely happened and it was always a duet. Too much artistic license is being taken with facts in this series and it would've been easy to check with the people who were in the room.

John Rubinstein has put on the record that Gwen never showed up to a Pippin rehearsal, laid on the floor and talked to Bob about Chicago. No one ever would do that. We all knew that while the scene was being presented to us on the television. Nor did Bob yell at Candy Brown telling her she was behind.

While the television show is pretty to look at it is factually incorrect and an unfortunate hit job on a brilliant choreographer who actually came up with his own ideas. Since Nicole is executive producer and green lights everything she obviously has issues with her father.

Lastly, one of her mother's lovers has recently said Gwen would never have wanted this series to happen. She was a private person who cultivated the image of a star from a previous time. She would either not talk about things or lie. She would not want any of this put in front of the public let alone with all of the inaccuracies.

Bob was never this moross. He was clever and intelligent. Nothing miserable man being portrayed. Watch the interviews on video. Not close.

[Bettyboy72]

Posted: 5/28/19 at 4:21pm

kofler22 said: "A great interview with Ann Reinking!!

https://www.newyorker.com/culture/culture-desk/ann-reinking-on-her-life-as-bob-fosses-muse-lover-and-friend"

A fantastic interview in which she very gracefully says the show is full of lies. Also, it's clear they failed the mission as it does not portray Fosse how he was. She would be very sad I'm sure to see how colorless and horrible he is painted. 

 

[MCfan2]

Posted: 5/28/19 at 4:40pm

Wasson interviewed Reinking for his book. She said many of the same things she said here. He also interviewed other people, and they brought different perspectives. Ann Reinking says Fosse wasn't abusive or exploitative. Cheryl Clark told him to his face he was exploitative, and walked off the set of "All That Jazz."

That's what a good biography does; it brings a wide variety of perspectives to one person's life, as it should. You can't even come close to a complete picture of someone if you only talk to his girlfriend, or his daughter, or someone who worked for him, or his best friend. You need it all, or at least as much of it as you can get. Everyone sees and shares a different view, and all of those views together help build up a picture of the subject.

I'm not saying Wasson is God, though. I didn't always care for his point of view on some things, or his turn of phrase. But to his credit, he talked to a LOT of people who were there, and made every effort to be comprehensive. 

Incidentally, Wasson never said that Verdon ranted about "Nowadays" in the rehearsal room, but he did say she ranted before they got to the rehearsal room. Again, there's consolidation and rearrangement of events for dramatic purposes.

[Bettyboy72]

Posted: 5/28/19 at 5:42pm

MCfan2 said: "Wasson interviewed Reinking for his book. She said many of the same things she said here. He also interviewed other people, and they brought different perspectives. Ann Reinking says Fosse wasn't abusive or exploitative. Cheryl Clark told him to his face he was exploitative, and walked off the set of "All That Jazz."

That's what a good biography does; it brings a wide variety of perspectives to one person's life, as it should. You can't even come close to a complete picture of someone if you only talk to his girlfriend, or his daughter, or someone who worked for him, or his best friend. You need it all, or at least as much of it as you can get. Everyone sees and shares a different view, and all of those views together help build up a picture of the subject.

I'm not saying Wasson is God, though. I didn't always care for his point of view on some things, or his turn of phrase. But to his credit, he talked to a LOT of people who were there, and made every effort to be comprehensive.

Incidentally, Wasson never said that Verdon ranted about "Nowadays" in the rehearsal room, but he did say she ranted before they got to the rehearsal room. Again, there's consolidation and rearrangement of events for dramatic purposes."

It's clear that limited series writers failed because they gave us none of the charm, charisma or love Fosse exuded which may be in Wasson's book. 

 

[CarlosAlberto]

Posted: 5/28/19 at 8:01pm

Bettyboy72 said: "MCfan2 said: "Wasson interviewed Reinking for his book. She said many of the same things she said here. He also interviewed other people, and they brought different perspectives. Ann Reinking says Fosse wasn't abusive or exploitative. Cheryl Clark told him to his face he was exploitative, and walked off the set of "All That Jazz."

That's what a good biography does; it brings a wide variety of perspectives to one person's life, as it should. You can't even come close to a complete picture of someone if you only talk to his girlfriend, or his daughter, or someone who worked for him, or his best friend. You need it all, or at least as much of it as you can get. Everyone sees and shares a different view, and all of those views together help build up a picture of the subject.

I'm not saying Wasson is God, though. I didn't always care for his point of view on some things, or his turn of phrase. But to his credit, he talked to a LOT of people who were there, and made every effort to be comprehensive.

Incidentally, Wasson never said that Verdon ranted about "Nowadays" in the rehearsal room, but he did say she ranted before they got to the rehearsal room. Again, there's consolidation and rearrangement of events for dramatic purposes."

It's clear that limited series writers failed because they gave us none of the charm, charisma or love Fosse exuded which may be in Wasson's book.

I agree with you Bettyboy72 and if I were Reinking I would be livid that they fabricated a story about her having sex with Fosse in his hospital room immediately after his surgery. I would also be ringing up Nicole and take her to task for allowing them to include that blatant falsehood. 

It's disrespectful to the memories of those who are no longer with us to defend themselves and it's disrespectful to those who are alive and have to sit and watch their life be toyed around in this way. 

 

[Miles2Go2]

Posted: 5/28/19 at 8:14pm

So I guess that you hated “What’s Love Got to Do With It”, “Ray”, “Walk the Line”, “Sweet Dreams”, and “Coal Miner’s Daughter” to name a few. All plus many more most certainly took artistic liberties and used dramatic license to make certain points in a dramatic way including combining and condensing characters into one character and attribution of actions by one or more characters to another. At least there’s only tonight’s episode and then the armchair quarterbacking afterwards which will die out over next few weeks.

[CarlosAlberto]

Posted: 5/28/19 at 8:23pm

Miles2Go2 said: "So I guess that you hated “What’s Love Got to Do With It”, “Ray”, “Walk the Line”, “Sweet Dreams”, and “Coal Miner’s Daughter” to name a few. All plus many more most certainly took artistic liberties and used dramatic license to make certain points in a dramatic way including combining and condensing characters into one character and attribution of actions by one or more characters to another. At least there’s only tonight’s episode and then the armchair quarterbacking afterwards which will die out over next few weeks. "

As will the die hard defenders!! See how that works?

[BrodyFosse123]

Posted: 5/28/19 at 8:31pm

Dammit I agree with you Bettyboy72 and if I were Reinking I would be livid that they fabricated a story about her having sex with Fosse in his hospital room immediately after his surgery. I would also be ringing up Nicole and take her to task for allowing them to include that blatant falsehood.

Reinking admits to the sex scene just not after his surgery where nurses would have been present monitoring him.  With all due respect to the series, many have confirmed situations in the series were consolidated from different sections.  Had the series followed every detail verbatim, this would have been a 22 episode series.  Even with its 8 parts, a lot has been skipped.   Thankfully, HBO didn’t do their intended 2 hour film adaptation of the book.  They would have had to solely use one chapter to fit that 2 hour running time.  

Also, this series ONLY happened because Nicole Fosse solely agreed to letting them create this series under the condition that her mother Gwen Verdon’s story/history was equally told as the project was initially going to just be about Bob Fosse.  For reasons many of us here are unaware, there must be a reason why her father Bob Fosse is being portrayed as he is.  Even the Nicole/Bob scenes have an odd disconnect between them and Gwen seems to have to push Nicole to cooperate.  Nicole has her reasons why she’s showing their relationship this way and even in interviews, it’s obvious how much she’s making sure her mother’s legacy is introduced to a new generation and not forgotten.  

[Miles2Go2]

Posted: 5/28/19 at 8:36pm

Carlos - You didn’t really address my larger point, but that’s fine. For the record, I find the show fascinating...and perhaps flawed as any attempt to capture the life of a real person is bound to be.

I will say that I find it fascinating that people keep watching something that they apparently actively hate. It’s certainly someone’s prerogative to do so, but I tend to only listen or watch or engage with works of art where I can find something to appreciate in.

Updated On: 5/28/19 at 08:36 PM

[bk]

Posted: 5/28/19 at 9:29pm

I'll just say this: The show is based on a book by Sam Wasson, not on a book by Nicole Fosse.  Clearly the producers wanted her blessing and involvement, hence they allowed her input.  But she didn't "allow" this to happen - they didn't need her permission to make a film from a book that she was not involved in.   And clearly Ms. Fosse has daddy issues, hence the portrayal of Mr. Fosse in this series, which I find reprehensible.

[CarlosAlberto]

Posted: 5/28/19 at 10:26pm

Miles2Go2 said: "Carlos- You didn’t really address my larger point, but that’s fine. For the record, I find the show fascinating...and perhaps flawed as any attempt to capture the life of a real person is bound to be.

I will say that I find it fascinating that people keep watching something that they apparently actively hate. It’s certainly someone’s prerogative to do so, but I tend to only listen or watch or engage with works of art where I can find something to appreciate in."

i don’t hate it at all. I find it questionable that they took the liberties that they did. I do understand that many autobiographical films take liberties with the truth - but I find it interesting that with  Nicole involved that this many liberties were taken I mean this goes beyond condensing things -  they’re just making stuff up that just did not happen. 

 

[uncageg]

Posted: 5/28/19 at 10:50pm

I think Ms Fosse is also a producer on the project.

[disneybroadwayfan22]

Posted: 5/28/19 at 10:59pm

Is it my TV or this episode so dark? I missed Lin’s cameo because of the darkness

[ljay889]

Posted: 5/28/19 at 11:23pm

Wow, I thought the ending was perfect. Very emotional. Michelle deserves every award under the sun for this. I love how she perfectly enhanced Gwen’s signature rasp in her singing voice as the years progressed.
I do wish they mentioned that Gwen found plenty of film and TV work through out the 80s and 90s.

[CarlosAlberto]

Posted: 5/28/19 at 11:29pm

ljay889 said: "Wow, I thought the ending was perfect. Very emotional. Michelle deserves every award under the sun for this. I love how she perfectly enhanced Gwen’s signature rasp in her singing voice as the years progressed.
I do wish they mentioned that Gwen found plenty of film and TV work through out the 80s and 90s. "

Michelle Williams’ performance is a tour de force. Best things about this show.

Updated On: 5/28/19 at 11:29 PM

[BrodyFosse123]

Posted: 5/28/19 at 11:34pm

uncageg said: "I think Ms Fosse is also a producer on the project."

Consultant, Co-Executive Producer and brought in her Verdon-Fosse Legacy to handle all of the recreations of Bob Fosse’s original work.  

[ACL2006]

Posted: 5/28/19 at 11:38pm

Now that I've composed myself after that finale..... What a finale and a thrilling, just respectful way to end this series. Yes, we all know what's about to happen, but it was done so well and moving. From Gwen doing "If My Friends Could See Me Now", to Fosse going through the audience in "All That Jazz" to the heartbreaking montage ending of their relationship. I wish there was more.

 

On a side note, Gwen didn't open the Chicago tour. I was expecting to hear a mention of why she didn't open the tour, but nothing was said. Gwen closed the Chicago tour in 1978.